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Tina Engler, Founder of Elloras Cave Talks About Her Marriage To A Convicted Murderer, And Airs Her Views On The U.S Penal System

JaynieR posted an interview with Tina Engler, AKA Jaid Black on her blog earlier today.

The purpose of the interview appears to be two-fold. Firstly, it seems to be an opportunity for Black to give her side of the story, in terms of her marriage to a *convicted felon, (if the link is broken, search for a David Roy Keen) serving time for shooting, and killing an ex-girlfriend; and secondly, to discuss her feelings, on the failings of the current U.S penal system, and its bias towards the poor, and the uneducated.

Ms Black’s decision to marry a prisoner, serving a life sentence for murder is her affair, and I feel that it would be remiss of me to publicly comment on my personal feelings relating to this matter.

In actual fact, what disturbed me most was Black’s assertion that locking up prisoners is tantamount to human trafficking, and that a person who deliberately takes a life, cannot be blamed for their actions.

When one reads the interview in its entirety, the delivery of her message is staunch, and unflinching, whilst her belief that she speaks a universal truth, appears to be unshakeable.

Ms Black writes:

“At the time the crime is committed, the male is typically aged 18-25, too poor to retain private counsel, and black. (My husband was poor and white.) Many possess very low IQs and/or are clearly mentally ill. The accused is typically severely depressed at the time of his arrest, and particularly in one-time crimes where violence is involved, suicidal.

During this phase they often don’t care about their own fates and wish they were the dead ones instead of the victim—a normal feeling given what they did and one that resurfaces over and over again throughout their lives. The reason for this extreme guilt and self-hatred is because there tends to be a true remorse amongt these men,”

What Black appears to be saying here, is that we should have more sympathy for convicted felons, because they are often young and foolish, and know not what they do. Plus, they are always remorseful after the fact.

Presuming that this is true for every 18-25 year old who decides to end the life of another, are we to take the route of excusing them for their crime, simply because they were poor, and perhaps their parents didn’t love them sufficiently enough to turn them into decent human beings?

She continues:

If released, they are the least likely group of men to wind up back in prison. (Recall we’re talking about one-time killers here, not serial killers. They are a different breed altogether”

Black’s assertion that felons who have only killed once, aren’t as dangerous as serial killers, seems to be a tad naïve, and slightly disturbing.

The statements that she makes all the way through this interview, at no time, takes into consideration, the rights of the victim, or their family.

“So here is the accused—young, poor, uneducated, morbidly depressed and suicidal—and he’s given a public defender who, if lucky, speaks to him for 20 minutes to an hour before representing him at a trial that will determine his fate forever. (For all the hyperbole one hears about men allegedly getting out on appeal, this happens very, very rarely.)”

Once again, without thought for the victim, who’s life has been deliberately cut short, (don’t forget we are talking murder here) Black suggests that being young, poor and uneducated are viable reasons for us to sympathise with somebody who’s taken the life of another.

“On the other side, representing the state, is a damn good, seasoned lawyer with his/her eye on bigger and better things. They want to be judges, politicians, or well-paid private attorneys. The glory they seek can come only from knowing how to play the game and by playing it well.”

OK, what have we learned thus far?

1. We have learned that every 18-25 year old who goes on to commit murder, is always truly remorseful after the crime has been committed.

2. The public defenders appointed for the accused, are always below par to say the least.

3. Every lawyer representing the state is a damned good lawyer, who doesn’t care about his/her cases, they just want to hit the big time.

Moving on:

“Amongst all this, where you commit a crime is probably more important than what you actually did, at least from a cold perspective. Florida (my husband’s state) and Texas are notorious for giving loooong sentences. In Florida, for instance, you can be found guilty of first degree (premeditated) murder if you had even a second to think about what you are doing. I don’t know too many people who can make calculated decisions in a single second, let alone premeditate a murder,”

In other words, if an armed burglar enters a house, without any intention of killing the occupants, but panics and shoots the homeowner, killing him, then according to Ms Black, this should not be treated as first degree murder, because the Burglar didn’t have time to think about pulling the trigger, he just panicked.

“Off to prison he goes. He has no voice, cannot vote, is locked in a cage and stripped of all human rights and dignity forever. He will be given substandard, third-world medical care by unqualified “physicians” who often times aren’t even legitimate doctors and/or do not speak the convicted prisoner’s native English tongue, making communication all but impossible. His meals are as substandard as his medical care, the fruits and vegetables often rotted.”

But what about the victim? What about the young woman who will not live to see her potential, what about the girl who will never become a bride, what about the girl who’s family were given a death sentence of sorts, when their child was brutally taken from them?

As a parent, if your child was murdered, would you really be worried about the fact that the perpetrator of that murder wasn’t getting the best healthcare, and that they had lost their right to vote?

“The government and big business make a lot of money off legalized human trafficking—a very scary reality. It costs approximately $27,000 USD per year to house, feed and clothe an inmate in Florida and produces a profit of over $100,000 USD per inmate per year for the state. (FYI: this info is readily available on the FL Dept of Corrections website.)”

Human trafficking? Black seems to have missed the point of correctional institutions altogether. Prisons are not supposed to be easy, and her assertion that the whole penal system was set up, just to make as much money as possible seem quite wild, and mostly unsubstantiated.

These places only exist because there are people out there who have no respect for life, who have no respect for other people’s possessions, and who have no respect for the notion of freedom. The financial gains made by the state, is merely a by-product of this.

In the question and answer segment that follows Black’s essay, she writes:

“All of us, with no exceptions, make hideous mistakes. Unfortunately, some of us also make tragic ones.”

Tragic would be killing a young woman who had her whole life ahead of her, one supposes?

“My kids love their (step) dad —my husband—beyond reason. In fact, when they overheard me on the phone talking about doing this interview in light of the emails being sent around (I didn’t know they were eavesdropping), both of them became extremely upset and were crying.”

As I stated earlier, Black’s decision to marry a man who was convicted of killing his girlfriend is her business, and I’m sure that her children do think of him as ‘Daddy’, but I would question whether or not every member of her family is as ecstatic over their relationship as she appears to believe.

“The issue for me as a wife and as an activist is this: Does a man deserve to spend the rest of his life alone and neglected, starved for human affection and attention, because of a deed he committed many, many years ago as a young, immature man?”

It is feasible that a person who commits such a heinous crime as a young man (23), would feel remorse. But is that a good enough reason for him/her to not be punished severely?

Black, insists that her husband is a good person, and that his incarceration is no longer of value to him or his victim.

I suggest that perhaps the victim’s parents would feel otherwise.

One has to wonder if Black would feel the same way, if it was one of her children who had been murdered by a man who was really, really sorry afterwards?

Via Anonymous

94 Comments »


  • Teddy Pig
    June 17
    9:09 pm

    “So, Teddy, what you are theoretically saying is that (1) if, indeed, there is really a person out there who is married to a possible pedophile, is an alcoholic and addicted to pain-killers and estranged herself from her own daughter because the daughter accused the husband – AND that person is VB – THEN Black got what SHE deserved.

    I’ve really never heard of you, Teddy, but – and I’m not being sarcastic here – but, do you really expect people to take you seriously or are you just trying for a shock factor.”

    You are so funny. It’s pitiful.

    If loud mouth Jaid Hack knows that woman’s husband is a pedophile and that woman ALLOWED him to molest the kids then she needs to take that EVIDENCE to the cops.

    Not write her little snark in her little blog for all her simple minded friends such as yourself. END OF STORY.

    I think she over stepped herself and got backhanded but good.

    Payback is a bitch.

    ReplyReply


  • Susan Edwards
    June 17
    9:19 pm

    Full disclosure right up front: I work for Jaid Black, and I’d like to offer just a bit more information to clear up one question I see coming up several times in this discussion and one inaccurate conclusion I see people drawing from the discussion.
    I don’t know if it’s true that the revelation about Jaid’s husband was sent to only one blogger, but I am pretty sure that if Jaynie hadn’t jumped on it, the person who sent it would have kept sending it out until someone bit. The reason I (and Jaid) believe this is that the threat has been out there for quite a while. After we started hearing the threats, we knew it was just a matter of time before someone published it.
    So when Jayne offered Jaid a chance to tell the story herself, her decision was that at least she’d have a chance to explain her point of view before all the wild conjecture, generalizing and leaping to judgment began.
    The other point I want to address is the opinion expressed by some that Jaid does not care about the victim in this case or any other. That is the wrong conclusion to draw from her statements about inmates. I met Jaid many years ago before she was a published author. I interviewed her for an article I was doing on welfare reform. One thing that struck me about her then was that here was a very young woman struggling to raise a daughter and attend college but who still took time to do volunteer work–and I mean a lot of volunteer hours–for human rights and civil rights causes. She cares about victims of all kinds. She is one of the most compassionate people I have ever known. One proof of that is the compassion she has found in her heart for the people who seem to deserve it the least. I have seen her care too much and try too hard to help people. I have seen her trust and take care of people who ultimately betrayed her trust. But I have never seen her callously disregard any one’s suffering.
    Jaid focused her comments in that interview on inmates rather than victims. She was trying so hard to help people understand offenders like David that she neglected to express her anguish about his victim. But believe me, it is there.
    Jaid honestly does have a strong social conscience and a drive to try and make the world a better place. That’s why I chose to work for her. Because I know that, no matter what, her heart is in the right place, and she doesn’t just talk the talk. She walks the walk.

    ReplyReply


  • Teddy Pig
    June 17
    9:40 pm

    “I have a very dear friend who was sexually molested as a child. He is an alcoholic and has attempted suicide several times. He has been in and out of rehab and his life has been hell.”

    Well twice here, by relatives but not the parents they were too busy beating on me.

    But I never “attempted” suicide, thought about it at times but I think it was both my moms parents committing suicide that made me realize that was a stupid thing to do.

    I just grew up and got over it eventually.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    June 17
    9:40 pm

    I am sure Jaid’s concern is a big comfort to the victim’s family.

    ReplyReply


  • Barbara B.
    June 17
    10:05 pm

    Ms. Edwards, why do you refer to the information getting out about Ms. Engler’s husband as a threat? Ms. Engler said she’s not ashamed of it and is proud of her husband. Why the big reaction? She’s done nothing that needs to be explained to anyone, certainly not a bunch of people she doesn’t even know. She’s not the first woman to marry a convicted felon and certainly won’t be the last. It may appear foolish to some but it’s certainly not newsworthy. Why make a big deal about it?

    I think the intended damage control of the preemptive interview was the equivalent of trying to put out a fire with gasoline. It was an incredibly bad move. It was too much information and poorly done. Even though you say that Ms. Engler is not unsympathetic to the victims and their survivors, that wasn’t made crystal clear in the interview. I think that, more than Ms. Engler’s being married to a murderer, is what’s so inflammatory. Maybe next time she’ll choose to take the dignified route and decline to comment. She wasn’t obligated to confirm or deny.

    ReplyReply


  • Teddy Pig
    June 17
    10:12 pm

    Yeah does “attack” mean she was on the defensive?

    Wow, someone needs a REAL publicist stat!

    ReplyReply


  • Rosie
    June 17
    10:14 pm

    And Rosie, passing comment on people’s opinion is what Blogland has been about for longer than I’ve been blogging, you may find it distasteful, but unfortunately, that’s generally how things work, especially here in Romanceland.

    Karen, no kidding? My point is that was MY opinion.

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  • Anonymous
    June 17
    10:26 pm

    Miss Edwards,

    It was stated in the interview, and here by you and by Miss Black’s defenders that she is a long time advocate of prison reform and prisoner rights – a frequent and familiar face, etc. I find these statements confusing because

    1. web searches pairing Tina Engler/Jaid Black with the search terms for prison reform and prisoner rights yield no results other than the past few days statements.

    2. the jaid black website only promotes one social project – PETA (close, but still different animals/different cages)

    3. you’re not referring to the onetime article in lady jaided on the sexual fantasies of prisoners, are you?

    So, as a long time associate and employee of Tina Engler’s, could you help us out and point to documented evidence of Tina’s crusade?

    Also, I am deeply concerned over the inaccuracies on the department of corrections website. It is slanderous for the state to attribute a Supreme White Power tattoo to David Roy Keen’s person. And the treatment of David Roy Keen, with the rotten food, third world medical care, etc. What is the best way to contact the Florida Department of Corrections and voice my concern over his care?

    Thank you

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  • Karen Scott
    June 17
    10:31 pm

    So when Jayne offered Jaid a chance to tell the story herself, her decision was that at least she’d have a chance to explain her point of view before all the wild conjecture, generalizing and leaping to judgment began.

    Tell what story? That she was married to a convicted murderer?

    So what if she was?

    Let me tell you, that kind of story is one that would have been kept within personal e-mails, because there was nowhere to go with it. In short, it was a non-story.

    The whole deal about prison reform on the other hand, is one that was bound to be controversial.

    From all accounts, Black’s been an activist for a long time, so she must have realised, that the majority of the general public are not going to get where’s she’s coming from.

    As a writer, how could she not realise that her words would offend many people?

    Did she really think that writing something as dismissive as:

    “But there also comes a point when further punishment serves no value to the person or to the aggrieved.”

    Oh. My. God.

    Susan, if your child had been murdered and you came across somebody basically saying, what’s the point in them being in prison anymore, how would that make you feel? Would you want them to be out in the world, whilst your baby lay dead in the ground?

    Come on, get real here. Sure, talk about prison reform, and talk about the imbalance between how rich criminals are treated as opposed to poor ones, but don’t for the love of God tell people that somebody who took a life in cold blood, should be let out because he’s a great person and he’s really sorry.

    Black is an established author, and a lot of her success has been based around the written word. Why would she not be savvy enough to know that people aren’t going to be happy about that kind of statement?

    And Susan, as EC’s VP of PR, did she ask you to proof what she wrote? If so, did you not have the wherewithall to know how offensive she would come across?

    Because I know that, no matter what, her heart is in the right place,

    It sure sounded that way when I read the blog where she was ranting about an author with a paedophilic boyfriend, who may or may not exist.

    Surely it’s your job to make sure as an EC rep, she doesn’t mess up so royally in public?

    she doesn’t just talk the talk. She walks the walk.

    Well, you’ll forgive me for still not having any sympathy because as fucked up as the prison system is, it’s still not as fucked up as somebody who takes another’s life.

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    June 17
    10:38 pm

    Karen, no kidding? My point is that was MY opinion

    Rosie, you’ve lost me?

    Are you pointing out that you had a right to disapprove over my commenting on somebody else’s personal opinion?

    ReplyReply


  • Rosie
    June 17
    10:53 pm

    No, of course not. I’m saying that my original post was a commentary and an opinion.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    June 17
    11:01 pm

    Heavens the internet is a wonderful thing.

    Are you the same reporter who wrote twice about Ms. Engler nine years apart?

    http://tampa.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4017 Daily Planet 7/1/04 The Great Escape.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    June 17
    11:12 pm

    http://tampa.creativeloafing.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4017

    I particularly like this portion of The Great Escape article speaking about her first pregnancy —

    Unfortunately, though he had a good job when Tina got pregnant, he developed a drug problem and ended up in prison. She doesn’t bear him any ill will for his problems, and she still wishes him well. “He was a good dad when he wasn’t doped up,” she says. “I wish he could have gotten the help he needed instead of ending up in prison.” —

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    June 17
    11:23 pm

    As far as the so-called “vindictive bitch” who supposedly is out to get Ms Engler/Black… well, perhaps we should take a leaf from Ms E/B book and forgive the sinner. After all, in the grand scheme of things, emailing gossip doesn’t come anywhere remotely close to murdering someone, no?

    Good point, Aztec Lady.
    Passing on a gossipy e-mail is certainly not as bad as killing somebody in cold blood.

    ReplyReply


  • Teddy Pig
    June 18
    12:12 am

    Karen,

    I may have just read JaynieR going off on your blog post about HER interview with JB.

    I say “may have” because I got the feeling we are “horrible and bitchy” to read and comment about “HER blog” here on yours.

    I could have sworn I saw you post your exact same thoughts, with close to the same wording, on her blog before you actually posted your ideas about it all here.

    Anyway I wanted to point out that her post pointed everyone to go to that Dept of Corrections site you pointed to in your post…

    (FYI: this info is readily available on the FL Dept of Corrections website.)

    Why was it wrong for you to simply give a link with maybe a bit more information than she wanted us to find out and why is it so wrong to disagree with her?

    Just my thoughts, I must be seeing things again.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    June 18
    2:26 am

    So here is the accused—young, poor, uneducated, morbidly depressed and suicidal—and he’s given a public defender who, if lucky, speaks to him for 20 minutes to an hour before representing him at a trial that will determine his fate forever.

    I thought the word “suicidal” meant wanting to kill one’s self. I think Jaid Black should’ve used another word: homicidal.

    And calling first degree murder “a mistake” is delusional. That man was convicted. The prosecution proved beyond reasonably doubt that the killer planned it and did it.

    Get over it, Jaid. Your hubby is a cold-blooded murderer, and he’s sorry he got caught.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    June 18
    9:02 am

    Dear Ms. Black,

    Off to prison he goes. He has no voice,

    And the woman your husband murdered in cold blood has no voice either.

    cannot vote,

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood can’t vote either.

    is locked in a cage

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood is locked in a coffin…underground.

    and stripped of all human rights and dignity forever.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood has been stripped of all human rights and dignity when he pulled the trigger.

    He will be given substandard, third-world medical care by unqualified “physicians” who often times aren’t even legitimate doctors and/or do not speak the convicted prisoner’s native English tongue,

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never be able to receive medical care, third-world or otherwise, to make her better.

    making communication all but impossible.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never be able to communicate with anyone.

    His meals are as substandard as his medical care,

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never be able to enjoy another meal.

    the fruits and vegetables often rotted.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood is rotting in her coffin.

    Because sexual offenders are not separated from non-sexual offenders, rape is everywhere and only the toughest survive.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood is not the toughest I guess since she couldn’t survive when your husband pulled the trigger.

    AIDs, Hepatitis C and Staph infections run rampant.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood is not even able to get a disease because she’s dead. I suppose that makes her situation better than his.

    Air conditioning is not provided even though so many bodies are confined together in small, cramped spaces. In places like Florida, summer can be tough to survive.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never enjoy another summer again, with or without AC.

    At first his family and friends come to see him, but over the years the visits lessen and the prisoner becomes utterly alone. His family still loves him, but life has a way of going on. Parents age and die, siblings get married and have their own lives to lead.

    The woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never see her friends and family again. And her family will never see her again.

    Sometimes seeing your baby, your son, is just too damn painful.

    The family of the woman your husband murdered in cold blood will forever be in pain when they realize that it’s her birthday, the anniversary of her death, Thanksgiving or Christmas.

    You want to help him, but there is nothing you can do so you avoid him out of self-preservation.

    The family of the woman your husband murdered in cold blood wants her back, but will never get her back.

    When you do visit him, you will wait in lines up to 4 hours long in sweltering hot conditions just to get in. As you age, this becomes harder on you and potentially life-threatening so you find yourself taking fewer chances with it.

    The family of the woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never be able to see her even if they wait for hours in sweltering heat without AC.

    On the sparse occasions you do endure it, you will be bodily searched, treated like a pariah, and insulted by guards on power trips.

    The family of the woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never be able to see her even if they are searched, treated like crap.

    It takes roughly one to five years to come to the ultimate realization: You are never getting out.

    It took a moment– even a split second for the woman your husband murdered in cold blood to come to the ultimate realization: you are going to die.

    The government and big business make a lot of money off legalized human trafficking—a very scary reality. It costs approximately $27,000 USD per year to house, feed and clothe an inmate in Florida and produces a profit of over $100,000 USD per inmate per year for the state. (FYI: this info is readily available on the FL Dept of Corrections website.)

    I don’t know of any organizations that actually pay their employees more than what the companies make. If your definition of human trafficking holds true, then you are guilty of human trafficking. Actually all for-profit companies are guilty of it.

    Prisons create jobs and provide cheap labor.

    Jobs for whom? Cheap labor for whom? The woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never hold another job.

    Crime is the #1 scare tactic a politician uses to win an election.

    Yes. Because when a life is taken away, it’s forever.

    Sentences are getting longer (over 11% of the inmate population are “lifers”) and 1 out of every 15 Americans will be incarcerated in their lifetime. (This statistic can be found on the Justice Department’s website.)

    Perhaps if people stop commiting crimes, there will be no reason for them to be lifers.

    And so when you—when I—look at the bigger picture rather than just at one piece of the jigsaw puzzle, you see that there is much more to the prison experience than meets the eye. It’s easy to demonize these men, to condemn them and throw away the key, because we don’t have to see them or get to know them for their beauty as much as their flaws. In other words, we never have to realize that they are just like you and me. So long as society is placated in this way, the government will never feel obligated to bring about true societal change and remedy the things that could stop crimes from happening in the first place (i.e. gun control, poverty, cracking down on alcohol consumption amongst teens, teaching kids and young adults how to handle their emotions, etc.)

    And it’s so easy to look at the big picture and ignore all the victims and their families. Who are just like you and me. There’s much more to the victims’ families and friends’ lives than meets the eye. It’s so easy to demonize and ignore them…the victims and their families and friends, to condemn them for wanting justice for their loved ones who were violated by people…like your husband.

    All of us, with no exceptions, make hideous mistakes. Unfortunately, some of us also make tragic ones.

    Tragic for whom?

    The victims or the murderers?

    Because I don’t see anything about the poor woman and her family and friends. You know…the one your husband murdered in cold blood.

    The next best thing a concerned person can do is educate themselves and others on the issues. It’s very easy to live in “The Matrix” and very unsettling to think about unpleasant things, but I strongly recommend that you do so. Someone once said that you can judge a society by how the least among you are treated in it. In every case of genocide I can historically recall, overzealous government looking for easy scapegoats has always been at the root of what eventually culminates into disaster.

    But since your husband did indeed pull the trigger, he’s not a scapegoat, is he?

    The issue for me as a wife and as an activist is this: Does a man deserve to spend the rest of his life alone and neglected, starved for human affection and attention, because of a deed he committed many, many years ago as a young, immature man?

    Does a woman deserved to be shot, cut her life short, put into a coffin, buried and rot because some young immature man made a “tragic mistake”? (your word, not mine)

    And who’s going to give the woman your husband murdered in cold blood companionship, affection and attention?

    I would defy anyone to meet my husband, to get to know him as a person, and tell me he needs to be locked away forever.

    I would defy anyone who knew the woman your husband murdered in cold blood to tell you and your husband that she deserved to be murdered in cold blood.

    For the victim he will always grieve—and I will always grieve. But there also comes a point when further punishment serves no value to the person or to the aggrieved. My husband could honor her memory a lot better out here helping kids find their way, a positive way, rather than rotting in prison.

    He should be punished forever just like the woman he murdered in cold blood is dead forever.

    She’s rotting in her coffin. Why shouldn’t he rot in prison?

    And parole is a joke. If the inmate goes to the parole board with a flawless record for good behavior, he’s told he learned to manipulate the system. If he goes before them and has even a single blemish on his record, he’s told he didn’t learn his lesson. They don’t want these men to have another chance—there’s too much money to be made there. So the ones they do let out are the ones they know will be coming back anyway because they have impulses that can’t be stopped—rapists, child molesters, drug addicts, etc.

    Of course. ALL people who get out on parole are going to do it again. And by the way, how do you know this? Can you see the future too in addition to reading minds?

    First off, I didn’t name the author or give any identifying characteristics, which I want to be clear about. I don’t air people’s dirty laundry in public…

    But you did. If you hadn’t said anything, nobody would’ve known.

    My kids love their dad—my husband—beyond reason.

    And the woman your husband murdered in cold blood will never have a child who loves her beyond reason.

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  • Karen Scott
    June 18
    10:37 am

    Wow, Anon, if it wasn’t for the fact that I don’t think Black deserves any more free publicity, I’d totally put your post up as my blog of the day.

    Very eloquently put, and so damn true.

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  • Anonymous
    June 18
    12:18 pm

    Karen,

    Feel free to post my comment up if you change you mind later.

    I think that people really need to see things from another side — the victim’s side.

    It’s so easy for Black to condemn people for wanting justice because she wasn’t victimized — she didn’t lose her mother, her daughter, her friend to a cold-blooded murderer.

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  • Elizabeth Kerri Mahon
    June 18
    2:05 pm

    This was more information than I ever needed to know about Jaid Black, but since she put it out there, all I have to say is you do the crime, you do the time. This is a man who deliberately took someone’s life. Yes, he maybe remorseful, but he still committed murder. He left parents mourning a child, something no parent should ever have to go through. This reminds me of the woman who married one of the Menendez brother’s in prison, and talks about how sweet he is. Hey, even Ann Rule thought Ted Bundy was a nice guy.

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  • Anonymous
    June 18
    2:20 pm

    Its all too easy for these wealthy advocates to agitate on behalf of criminals. While they’re living in their gated communities protected from these ‘poor misguided souls,’ poor and minority communities all over the country are being decimated by their actions.

    We can weep and wail and gnash our teeth about the plight of ‘poor black men,’ but what about the poor black women who are their number one target? Do you understand that the number one cause of death of young black women is murder by their significant other? Have you checked the stats on that? Or do you give a goddamn since like many white women of your ilk you’re totally focused on the black men you want to lay up with, and to hell with black women.

    Too bad your husband didn’t kill a black woman. Its highly unlikely he would’ve received life without parole. See, those poor black men you lament about receive much shorter sentences. That is, as long as they kill or violate black women. God help them if they dare trespass onto the oh so vaulted white womanhood then and only then do they receive those horrifically long sentences you decry.

    I grew up in a rural community that was so crime-free we didn’t even have locks on our doors. Now that community is so dangerous you can’t walk the streets in daylight. They make a habit of throwing Malotov cocktails into folks’ houses at random. One of those firebombs killed an 18 month-old baby.

    By all means, lets release them, but only if they’re going to to live in YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD Ms. Black. Let’s see how you like it when your community is destroyed by their drugs and sociopathology. The home you’ve worked your whole life to pay off becomes worthless because nobody wants to live in a crime-infested neighborhood. You, and those like you are full of shit, Ms. Black. Being white, wealthy and female protects you from the ramifications of your ‘activism.’ More’s the pity that nobody is protecting the victims.

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  • Susan Edwards
    June 18
    5:05 pm

    Just wanted to clear up another bit of misinformation and answer a couple of questions.
    I did some checking into the white supremacist tattoo and it turns out the info on the FDOC website is erroneous. David Keen has no such tattoo. I’ve written them asking them to verify his tattoos and update the info. I don’t imagine this will be a top priority for them, but I’ll post here when I hear from them.
    In regard to the question about me, yes, I am the person who interviewed Jaid nine years apart and did a story on her each time for an alternative weekly newspaper. I decided to go to work for her a while after I quit that job to help her start a magazine devoted to celebrating women’s sexuality.
    As for Tina’s activism, I don’t know that your average foot soldier gets a lot of press, and I do know that a lot of newspaper content does not turn up on google searches because newspapers want to charge for it. When I’m looking for legal documents and newspaper accounts, I use Lexis Nexis online. It costs money to use the service, but a lot of libraries have gateways you can use for free. It’s a great tool for journalists.

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  • Anonymous
    June 18
    5:12 pm

    Susan Edwards “I don’t know that your average foot soldier gets a lot of press,”

    You’ve spent 9 years writing how she isn’t average. She’s in Forbes this month. Oh, I see the bandaid she put on her blog today to look as if she’s a prison reform activist. Thanks. That makes it all better.

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  • Anonymous
    June 18
    8:24 pm

    We can weep and wail and gnash our teeth about the plight of ‘poor black men,’ but what about the poor black women who are their number one target? Do you understand that the number one cause of death of young black women is murder by their significant other? Have you checked the stats on that? Or do you give a goddamn since like many white women of your ilk you’re totally focused on the black men you want to lay up with, and to hell with black women.

    Dayum. Can I get an amen?

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  • Anonymous
    June 18
    11:11 pm

    Dear Susan Edwards & Jaid Black,

    Trying to soothe a flap that started because Tina Engler doesn’t know how much info is too much info by posting still more information about JB/TE’s private life is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.

    The sad truth of it is, a whispered rumor will never travel as fast or do as much damage as a red hot flame war. Responding to rumors with TMI does more harm than good, and is grossly unprofessional, besides.

    I keep hearing that EC is a multi million dollar company. Well, it’s time the major players there start acting like it. That means watching what you say in public – especially the blogs. Unsubstantiated innuendo, blind items and a chorus of “they jes jealous” sound more like quotes from Britney’s “Letter of Truth” than the thoughts of a mature, self-made business woman.

    This row has probably soured a number of people on EC specifically and e-Publishing in general. How can we expect mainstream readers to take e-Publishing seriously when the founder of the self-proclaimed heavyweight in the market is behaving like a Jr higher and airing her personal and political laundry for all to see?

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  • Anonymous
    June 19
    5:36 am

    First off i will not talk about the penal system in this country because simply i have no idea about it. All i know is that Ms. Black had to have a screw loose and rolling around in her empty brain to spout all this stuff on a blog. This is something that belongs in person to person email or preferably in the trash. I dont care about authors personal lives, i dont want to know and i have no need to know. I fail to see how this interview, now making its rounds can do any good to Ms. Black’s repuation or that of her company Elloras Cave. Its just another hit that i sincerely dont think they want to take. Ms. Black should have kept her personal life private which is where it belongs.

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  • Sara Thacker
    June 19
    9:21 pm

    The 18 to 23 year old may not deserve to be in prison but did the person they murdered deserve to die? The person they murdered will never have their child say ‘I love you.’ They will never see another birthday. They will never have Christmas again or celebrate New Years because there will never be another New Year in their life. Dead is Dead and if you do the crime then pay the time even if it is harsh because what you took from another is harsh too.

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  • Anonymous
    June 22
    5:32 pm

    I pray to God that Karen Maries Stewart is watching her children from heaven and can find peace in all of this.

    I pray to God that David Roy Keene rots in prison and never sees the light of day.

    And I pray to God that Jaid Black get’s off the “crack” she’s smoking and can finally see that this isn’t about “David or she” but that this is about KAREN and the fact that she isn’t alive anymore.

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  • Anonymous
    June 27
    4:09 am

    Interesting. I posted this comment on Jaynie’s blog last night:

    Anonymous said…

    It just kills me that everyone, with Jaynie in the lead, have joined together in demonizing whoever sent this email when Jaynie ASKED for gossip! To quote:

    “So, here’s the deal – same as it used to be. If you have any good goss, email me with it. All sources remain confidential. I’ll try and do a Wednesday Whispers each week and we can see what shakes out of the tree.”

    And now everyone’s screaming about how this mean vindictive bitch was trying to be horrible to Tina/Jaid? You can’t beg for “good goss” and then act outraged and shocked when you get it. I mean, really. Own up to your part in this too, Jaynie. You’re hardly the innocent and impartial reporter here.

    ~ Amy

    And today, the entire post has been deleted. Looks like someone didn’t want to own up, doesn’t it?

    ~ Amy, who came late to the kerfuffle

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  • Anonymous
    June 28
    1:59 am

    Yup, all of the posts are gone on Jaynie’s blog. A bit of rewriting history, eh? Luckily all of the info can still be found on http://derschadenfreude.blogspot.com/ — and according to the latest post, there is a new blog on the block: http://silentscreamsbehindbars.blogspot.com/ — where the interview has been reposted. It would be really interesting to see if it has been tampered with or “rewritten” in any way…

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  • azteclady
    June 28
    2:20 pm

    I have to wonder about the motivations behind Der Shadenfreude. In the face of it, it would seem its only purpose is to attack JB/TE.

    On the other hand, JB/TE doesn’t appear to be a particularly innocent nor helpless damsel in distress.

    The one that surprised me was JaynieR taking down her blog. Thought she wanted the notoriety… *scratching head again*

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  • Jennifer H.
    July 10
    3:43 pm

    No doubt about it. JB’s just plain fucking nuts. Has anyone seen this woman in person? I have. It explains a lot (especially why she married a convicted murderer). I’ve never bought an EC book in my life. I have read them, thanks to friends who do, on occassion, buy their books. After reading a few, I must say, I’m glad I’ve never spent a dime on them. Don’t plan to start now either. JB needs a shrink, to go along with that dildo, which obviously isn’t doing such a grand job.

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  • Anonymous
    December 15
    11:58 pm

    well at least it was a child molester or osmetihing..hes smart he got some woman with deep pockets to marry him.. he’ll never go without in prison.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    January 3
    7:52 pm

    Thanks for publishing this information. I was about to sign a publishing contract with EC, and as the daughter of two deputy sheriffs, I will take a pass.

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  • MissKitty
    April 28
    11:57 pm

    It´s called freedom of speech.
    Like it or not.

    On the other hand, what are you devoting your time to? Knitting?
    I´m reading alot of self-righteous middleclass babbling here.

    Let me use my favorite word, because it is just oh so fitting:

    Hypocrites

    ReplyReply

  • Miss Kitty, it would seem that you’ve devoted enough time on this blog to comment on a post that’s nearly a year old.

    ReplyReply

  • Well, Karen, it would seem that our *ahem* middle class babbling and other hypocritical bad habits are catching, no? 😉

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  • I´m reading alot of self-righteous middleclass babbling here.

    Damn, Miss Kitty, don’t you know the rich and the poor can babble just as well as the middle class? In fact there is many the time I’m an A-List working class babble hero! If there’s one thing worse than a hypocrite its an ELITIST.

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  • ANGELA
    April 18
    10:12 pm

    KAREN
    This blog hits home to me because I am also a vitcum of her husband in the case he is serving a life sentence for.
    The young womans name that was murdered is Karen also! I am Angela, Karen Stewart’s daughter. One of his charges are for attempted murder against me because after shooting my mother he shot at me and thankfully the bullet wizzed by my head.
    I was 14 then and am almost 32 now. That was how old she was when he took her from us (for the rest of our lives).
    She was an amazing woman and mother. My daughter is 8 and my step daughter is 14 and they have more heart and brains than this Black woman. Thank you so much for taking up for the victum (my mother)and our family.
    Neither of those idiots have any remorse.
    A few years ago she contacted me trying any way she could to find a reason to get here low life, “Poor” and “Uneducated” husband, David Keen, out of prison. I was shocked and disgusted.
    To respond to Mrs. Tina Marie Keens, AKA Jade Black’s statment, YES he deserves to be alone and have lousy medical, rotten fruits and vegetables and no family.
    My brother and I were left without a mother and our children have no grandmother. His victim is DEAD and we have a hole in our lives and are consequently victims and his incarceration is of great value to us and we ALL think he is where he belongs, FOREVER, just as my mother is unfortunatly where she is FOREVER. In that lousy prison system that I am so thankful for.

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  • Terri
    April 21
    2:15 am

    I knew the amazing women this monster killed,her name is Karen,and thanks to David she will NEVER get the chance to see her children or grand children and all this crazy women “Black” can talk about is how sorry and remorseful he is about what he did, Who cares how he feels?!?!? Remember he killed an innocent person?!?!? Boo hoo he has bad healthcare and rotten food no a/c and his family doesn’t visit him anymore,what about Karen’s family???? We don’t ever get to see her again, she doesn’t ever get the chance to meet her grand children, her children have to go the rest of their lives without their mother! No matter how long he is in prison or how many days he goes without seeing his family, at the end of the day all that matter is, HE murdered a human being, he took a mother away from her children a daughter away from her parents a BEAUTIFUL person away from us all!!! He is right where he belongs!!! God help us all and make sure that David NEVER sees the free light of day!

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  • […] The following was originally posted on KKB on June 15th 2007: Here’s the link. […]


  • […] that in mind, let’s look at this 2007 comment from Angela, which I am reposting in full, and keep in mind that the blog post is about Tina Engler talking about her marriage to a convicted […]


  • […] – Tina Engler, a woman so sociopathic she tried to get the child of the woman whose murderer Tina married, to support that murderer’s pa…. […]


  • […] If you don’t know who Jaid Black/Tina Engler is by now, you haven’t been around for the past six months (and we’ve missed you, by the way). The post AS links to is here. […]


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