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Noble Publishing just opened its doors.

This is what it says on the submissions page:


I wonder if this means they’ll be offering up Twincest stories too?

Normally I wouldn’t bother reporting the opening of a new e-pub, but I want some record of it, for when they eventually close, maybe two years from now.

Yeah, yeah, a little cynical I know, but we all know the score here don’t we?

Anyway, I do wish them luck in their endeavours, and hopefully they don’t implode like Trixy Lion Publishing et al. *g*

And remember potential authors out there, “Happy Writing! And remember…Think Kink!”

Nice.

Via Emily Veinglory’s Erotic Romance Blog.

83 Comments »


  • Emily Veinglory
    November 25
    9:16 pm

    Nope, they have incest on their taboo list along with bestiality et al… which seems to make them rather *less* adventurous than Drak Eden, Total E-bound et al?

    ReplyReply


  • Emily Veinglory
    November 25
    9:17 pm

    *Dark* Eden, that is.

    ReplyReply


  • Shannon C.
    November 25
    10:16 pm

    Hmmm, I wonder if they’ll publish f/f erotic romance.

    Or maybe I should just quit dreaming heh.

    ReplyReply


  • Shiloh Walker
    November 25
    10:40 pm

    Well, their site looks better than some of I’ve. That’s a thumbs up, right?

    ReplyReply


  • Anne
    November 25
    10:43 pm

    Let’s hope they put out some quality stuff like Samhain is doing. *crossing fingers*

    ReplyReply


  • Angela James
    November 25
    11:01 pm

    Hmmm, I wonder if they’ll publish f/f erotic romance.

    Or maybe I should just quit dreaming heh.

    I can probably count on one hand and have fingers left over, the number of f/f (only) submissions we’ve gotten in the past two years. It’s hard to publish what no one is writing (at least no one who’s writing it is sending it to us). But I will also say that books with f/f do not sell as well as other erotic romance genres.

    Let’s hope they put out some quality stuff like Samhain is doing. *crossing fingers*

    Thanks, but you know, I think we’re pretty unmatchable ;)

    ReplyReply


  • Kat O+
    November 26
    12:05 am

    Well, you’ve obviously corrupted me, because the twincest thing was the first thing that popped into mind!

    I hope they do well.

    ReplyReply


  • Rosemary Laurey
    November 26
    1:39 am

    It’s always good to see another market open up.

    Will be interesting to see how it pans out.

    ReplyReply


  • kirsten saell
    November 26
    8:46 am

    Hmmm, I wonder if they’ll publish f/f erotic romance. Or maybe I should just quit dreaming heh.

    I certainly wish there was more of it out there–or mff menage, even. I’ll read and enjoy just about any kind of sex, but it’s sad when nobody’s writing what you love best. Torquere has some decent stuff, if you haven’t read it all. The ff, I mean, not the twincest. *ahem*

    ReplyReply


  • chandy
    November 26
    9:39 am

    you know, I’m seriously wondering: Is there really a market for these “push the ethics” kind of romance books?.

    ReplyReply


  • MERLIN
    November 26
    9:59 am

    Losing to Croatia didn’t bother me much as I “think Welsh” on a National level but losing to fucking Bolton…… now I’m really pissed off.

    M x

    ReplyReply


  • Sarah McCarty
    November 26
    12:41 pm

    I’m a little stuck on what they think their competitors _aren’t_ publishing. *wry grin* (I’m still reeling from the whole concept that incest is romantic.) FF romance has been tried repeatedly, but even for epublishers that don’t need a huge sell through, it just didn’t sell well enough to continue.

    Business wise, I’ve always wondered about that more kink to content approach because I would think there’s a point where the publisher is taking their product out of the target market and since the number one consumer of extreme erotica on line is men (and they are a sustainable market that have been proven reliable in their buying patterns), wouldn’t they garner more sales by not softening the edges of their product with an illusion of romance?

    ReplyReply


  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 26
    1:31 pm

    Nope, no twincest, or any other actual “cest.” I’m sorry. However, I would consider a story about a couple who roleplay a Daddy/Daughter relationship. :-) I’ll also look at forced seduction/rape, because it consistently comes up when women are polled on their sexual fantasies. There are a few other edgier topics I’d like to test, but I’ll save that subject for another time. ;-)

    Thanks to those of you who wish us well. I appreciate your kindness!

    ReplyReply


  • Anne
    November 26
    2:10 pm

    However, I would consider a story about a couple who roleplay a Daddy/Daughter relationship.

    Ewwwwww. It is safe to say that I am not your target market.

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    November 26
    2:10 pm

    Nope, no twincest, or any other actual “cest.” I’m sorry.

    Please Jill, no apologising, I can’t think of anything worse than incest or twincest stories.

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    November 26
    2:12 pm

    However, I would consider a story about a couple who roleplay a Daddy/Daughter relationship.

    Ditto what Anne said. That’s just wrong.

    ReplyReply


  • Sarah McCarty
    November 26
    3:07 pm

    Jill, I wish your company well, but I, for one, cannot IMAGINE being with a man who gets turned on by the thought of being with his daughter or son. *shuddering* (I’m assuming there’s no gender barrier though I desperately want to believe there is some boundary somewhere) As an author, I also cannot imagine how one could possibly make that romantic or turn that fetish into a romance reader’s HEA.

    I understand there’s a huge market for fetish fiction, but in reality, the product you’re proposing is, in my opinion, aimed at the fetish market with a gloss over of romantic elements, but it’s not romance.

    I struggled for a long time with even responding to this post, but it seriously disturbs me that pedophelia, incest, abuse, etc, are increasingly becoming more and more “Okay” if the publisher slaps a label of romance on them and the author glosses the sex scenes with a touch of emotion. They are not.

    Every pedophile out, every abuser out there “loves” his or her victim. In their minds their “love” justifies all. Changing the label of what’s really going on does not change the reality, however and adults preying on children is never romantic. Adults who do are not admirable nor heroic and I do not want them to have an HEA. Incest is developmentally crippling, and emotionally devastating to the victims. Romanticizing it is not okay, in my opinion and calling a story line with this as the sexual element (even thinly disguised as a role playing fantasy to make it acceptable) is just wrong.

    I grew up hearing this caveat over and over: “Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.” And there are definitely some places publishers should not take story lines and call it romance.

    For me, you’ve hit on a few. Clearly, I, also, am not your target market.

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    November 26
    4:04 pm

    What Sarah said. Every word.

    ReplyReply


  • Shiloh Walker
    November 26
    4:23 pm

    Yeah, I’m going to have to ditto Sarah on Daddy/Daughter deal thing, too.

    There are definitely some lines that just shouldn’t be crossed, regardless of how far people want to push the envelope. IMO, incest is way past that line. The idea of any kind of Daddy roleplay is definitely over the line for me as well.

    ReplyReply


  • Kayleigh Jamison
    November 26
    6:08 pm

    Hmmm, I wonder if they’ll publish f/f erotic romance. Or maybe I should just quit dreaming heh.

    I certainly wish there was more of it out there–or mff menage, even. I’ll read and enjoy just about any kind of sex, but it’s sad when nobody’s writing what you love best.

    Alright, I’m gonna be a self-promoting, shameless, dirty whore here. *grins*

    My latest release is an historical erotic romance with f/f, m/f, and f/f/m (it’s got a love triangle).

    As to whether or not it’s any good, well, I’m biased. But it does exist!

    KJ

    ReplyReply


  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 26
    6:53 pm

    I expected, and appreciate, the comments regarding the D/D topic. I also expect to get similar comments on the rape/forced seduction topic. I can only say, based on what I’ve heard from other men and women, that it’s fantasy — not reality — and they borrow from the relationship dynamics of those 2 situations. For the D/D, I’ve heard women say it’s the emotions of being cherished, adored, pampered, etc…and these women insist they wouldn’t want to sleep with their own fathers. The women who claim a “rape” fantasy also say they would never, ever want to be raped “in real life.”

    As for including these themes in a romance…it’ll take a lot of skill, I admit, and the right author to pull it off.

    ReplyReply


  • Anne
    November 26
    7:57 pm

    I love Sarah and her logical reactions.. and I agree with every single word of it.

    For the D/D, I’ve heard women say it’s the emotions of being cherished, adored, pampered, etc…and these women insist they wouldn’t want to sleep with their own fathers.

    But with this theme, in essence, isn’t that who they would be sleeping with? Their father? Gross, gross, gross. I too like the emotions of being cherished, adored, and pampered, but NOT from my father. Blech.

    ReplyReply


  • Shiloh Walker
    November 26
    8:06 pm

    Ms. Noble,

    I keep coming back to this, trying to figure how my thoughts and I’m not sure if I’m going to explain them well.

    When I first generally go check out a website, I’m doing it as a reader. I’m not searching for a new e publisher, but I do occasionally browse different epubs to see if anything catches my eye.

    Sometimes, I click away within one or two pages, for different reasons… a less than professional looking website, books that sound tired and familiar before I even finish the blurb. And sometimes because it seems pretty much clear right off the bat that the publisher’s idea of erotic romance doesn’t mesh with mine.

    The D/D theme doesn’t seem like one that would fit in erotic romance. I’m aware of the popularity of forced seductions and just like a lot of themes within erotic romance, there are those who will like it, those who won’t. But it’s one that I can easily see fitting within the context of erotic romance.

    Certain things don’t fit for me. Bestiality, incest, DD themes. These don’t work as erotic romance for me and if I see these themed storylines, I’d probably decide that the publisher’s idea of romance doesn’t mesh with mine-which means I’d click away without checking out anything else and I most likely wouldn’t go back again.

    My question, if I was querying you as an author, would be … are you trying to reach the erotic romance market or a fringe/fetish market.

    ReplyReply


  • Sarah McCarty
    November 26
    8:16 pm

    >>As for including these themes in a romance…it’ll take a lot of skill, I admit, and the right author to pull it off.< <

    I know I should let this go, but I can’t. The D/D scene is never going to happen as a romance. As a fetish it works because fetish stories exists to titillate for the moment and most of their appeal is in the forbidden act they portray. Romance (and your site says no erotica without romance so I’m talking about it) romance has a happily ever after. A hero to whom the reader can trust the heroine and her future and their children. (Because most couples do go on to have a family) In the D/D scenario the author has not only demonstrated to the reader that the hero not only sexualizes his children but acts out this predatory behavior with the heroine and gets off on it. Even assuming the author manages to limit the negative reader reaction to the heroine wanting to sleep with her father, there’s no way any attempt to create an HEA is going to leave the reader with any question other than, “But what will happen if they have children or he’s around children?”

    The minute the hero steps into the “fantasy” of having sex with his daughter, he can never be heroic again because he becomes the nightmare of every mother, aunt grandmother, etc out there. A sexual predator awaiting his opportunity.

    ReplyReply


  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 26
    8:59 pm

    My question, if I was querying you as an author, would be … are you trying to reach the erotic romance market or a fringe/fetish market.

    Ugh, I posted a nice response to this…and then the page froze up! Sigh.

    Anyway, definitely erotic romance. I’m not looking for porn. Any author who submits a story with these kinds of elements will need to make sure they’re couched within a compelling story with romance being the central theme between the main characters. What I won’t do is reject a great story simply because an author has chosen to step into controversial waters. I’m not going to say “you can’t do that” when there very well may be an author out there who can, and do it well. I’m interested in keeping it real. If a character is dark because the story calls for him/her to be dark, then he’s dark…no sugar-coating, no fudging around, no making excuses.

    So far, I haven’t received any submissions that contain the elements we’re discussing here. But if we ever do release a story that contains something like this, the book will be clearly labeled. I’m interested in providing readers with options, not in causing controversy or offending people because they stumble upon something they find disgusting.

    ReplyReply


  • Shiloh Walker
    November 26
    9:16 pm

    Anyway, definitely erotic romance. I’m not looking for porn.

    But I’d imagine that’s going to be the reaction of many readers who see a DD theme. I simply cannot wrap my mind around the thought of a sexy, appealing romance, with a likeable hero who has ‘little girl’ fantasies.

    That’s going to be to a sticking point there, liking a hero who can ‘sexualize’ something like a father/daughter relationship.

    As to providing readers with options, some publishers would argue that what they do with incest stories or bestiality. Certainly, there’s a market for it-but it’s not a romance market.

    I keep going back to the line… just because you can doesn’t mean you should

    Providing readers with options simply means providing them with good stories that different from others. If you’re trying to reach a romance market, though, certain ‘options’ may not be the best fit.

    ReplyReply


  • Emily Veinglory
    November 26
    9:29 pm

    And I think the romance market is broader than many people realise or are willing to accept. A small publisher, to succeed, needs to have a niche. Not so long ago m/m was perverted, not romance and never going to sell to women. Now several successful publishers make most of their money from it. Then it was menage, BDSM, and now twincest that was not romance, perverted and not going to sell to women. Funny how those books are also selling well to those (largely silent) customers who want to read them.

    There is a *big* difference between ‘not for me’ and ‘not romance’. A love story with a happy ending is romance. The rest is a matter of taste and even if it disgusts one person it might delight many others.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    November 26
    9:38 pm

    There is a *big* difference between ‘not for me’ and ‘not romance’.

    The thing of it is that sooner or later, will there be no lines left to cross?

    Do we have to worry that sooner or later a publisher is going to release a real DD book… NOT roleplaying, but the real deal and then call it romance because it ends happily ever after?

    Again, goes back to just because you can… doesn’t mean you should.

    ReplyReply


  • Ally Blue
    November 26
    9:39 pm

    There is a *big* difference between ‘not for me’ and ‘not romance’. A love story with a happy ending is romance. The rest is a matter of taste and even if it disgusts one person it might delight many others.

    What Em said *g*

    I love me some twincest (sorry, but I do!), but parent/child ‘cest squicks me severely even if both are adults. If the child is a real child, that is abuse and I absolutely will not ever touch it, it makes me sick. And I DO NOT EVER EVER EVER read “forced seduction”. To me, that equals rape, and I cannot read rape stories, for my own reasons. That’s me. It’s well known that fantasy-rape is a common female sex fantasy. I don’t get it, but different strokes and all that.

    Anything you can think of to write, someone out there is going to want to read it, no matter how awful you think it is. Some of the things people like to read shock the panties off me, I swear. Whether some of the more “extreme” stuff is marketable or not, who knows. I guess you can’t tell until you try :D

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  • Kat O+
    November 26
    9:46 pm

    I tend to think that light DD roleplaying could probably be done within a romance. For example, spanking can be couched within a DD roleplay. Obviously, it can be done in a badly written way, but I can see that it might be okay for a particular story if done well. After all, we have teacher/student roleplays, yet I don’t think most readers would necessarily accuse a hero in such a situation of being a potential paedophile.

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  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 26
    9:53 pm

    Shiloh, I completely understand what you’re saying. I really do. But I would have to agree with what Emily posted, and add that I have a hard time telling a perfectly mentally stable woman that her sexual fantasies are sick or inappropriate. As long as those fantasies don’t stem from abuse, and as long as those fantasies are played out between 2 (or more) consenting adults and aren’t harming others, I try to “live and let live.”

    BDSM, menage, D/s, homosexuality…all of these things can be considered fringe and/or fetish, but all of them regularly appear in erotic romance novels these days. I’ve also seen a few werewolf stories that *really* push the bestiality envelope. They get away with it because the stories are interesting, the main characters are thinking/reasoning beings, and the sex is portrayed (in most cases) as lovingly erotic. But when you peel back the layers on some of these scenes, what you have is pretty darn close to sex between a human and a wolf… Not *my* cuppa, but apparently they appeal to someone, because they sell. In fact, I edited one that contained these elements *and* happened to be a M/M back when I worked for LI. The were kept shifting forms during sex… From what I understand, the book did pretty well. Probably because it was a good story, and the editor did a great job with it. ;-)

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  • Sarah McCarty
    November 26
    10:00 pm

    “Now several successful publishers make most of their money from it. Then it was menage, BDSM, and now twincest that was not romance, perverted and not going to sell to women. Funny how those books are also selling well to those (largely silent) customers who want to read them.

    This is a misrepresentation. Many houses have published erotica right along side erotic romance without distinguishing between the two, but that doesn’t make the erotica story lines romance. Nor should they be as they wouldn’t work within those constraints. It also doesn’t mean publishers aren’t making money off those titles either, but there is no correlation between a title’s ability to make money and it being romance. Yes, there are more extreme story lines being marketed as romance to make them more palatable to their audience, but seriously, the same way swapping out the size 12 tag on my pants for a size two doesn’t change the size of my hips, inappropiately labeling books doesn’t change the reality of their genre.

    And for what it’s worth, many of the houses that were exploring more extreme story lines to garner customers, have turned back to an emphasis on plot and story. My guess is there is a reason for that.

    Again, there is a huge audience for fetish fiction. No one is denying that. One has to only do a search on the internet with the terms incest stories, or bestiality stories to see the reality. In a capitalistic society it would be unreaasonable to not expect someone to exploit that. However, romanticizing the exploitation of children, the devastation of incest, and or the ravages of rape is wrong. These life destroying acts of violence that humans perpetrate against each other should not be made mainstream or acceptable. They should remain horrible unthinkable acts that no one associates with a loving relationship.

    IOW, they are not romance.

    ReplyReply


  • Shiloh Walker
    November 26
    10:11 pm

    For example, spanking can be couched within a DD roleplay.

    I can’t say I agree here. Spankings could fall into DD territory… if that’s the context within the story. But spankings alone falling into DD territory? I don’t see that.

    And again… my concern with a DD themed story revolves around the hero ‘sexualizing’ a real father/daughter relationship.

    My viewpoints on this aren’t going to change, and likely nobody else is going to change their mind based on anything said here, whether those who don’t mind the idea or those that are put off by it.

    That said, I got a story to edit and kids to pick up.

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  • Emily Veinglory
    November 26
    10:47 pm

    What am I misrepresenting? You don’t think they are romance–those that write, sell amnd read them do. Ellora’s Cave is romance. Any love story with a happy ending is romance in my book (literally).

    Who gets to say that as soon as there are three people, or two girls and mo man, or a pair of hand cuffs, it isn’t love? I am not going to tell other people that what they think is love is just perversion because they used a flogger or wore costumes.

    And to be honest, so long as it is fiction I don’t think there are any lines. I feel it falls under freedom of expression even if what is being expressed disgusts me.

    ReplyReply


  • Kat O+
    November 26
    10:56 pm

    Eek! I actually did mean “could”. While I understand that there’s a large ick factor to sexualising a father/daughter relationship, the same could be said for teacher/student and various little girl/boy fantasies. Some people might find these scenarios equally icky, but they do occasionally occur in erotic romance without too much of a backlash (if at all). Personally, I’d find an actual forced seduction (as opposed to role-play) more disturbing than a light DD role-play, but again, it all depends on the writing.

    ReplyReply


  • Sarah McCarty
    November 26
    11:16 pm

    Emily,

    You’re arguing freedom of expression which I’m not quite sure has much at all to do with the specifics of genre classification.

    Not every book published by Ellora’s is romance anymore than every book labeled romantic suspense published by NY actually contains romance. Marketing is aimed at getting someone to buy something. It often has little to do with the reality of the product.

    However, as Shiloh said, this discussion is really neither here nor there. Everyone has their opinions. I’m by far not a prude and enjoy a variety of story lines. They don’t have to be a romance for me to enjoy them. Many of them COULDN’T be romance and be told with the depth that they have been as the genre restrictions would have prevented it. All freedom of expression vehemence aside, it’s not necessary for a book to fall within a genre restriction to be enjoyed, but there are certainly books that people enjoy that do not fit within a genre restriction.

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  • azteclady
    November 27
    1:12 am

    While I don’t see the appeal of quite a few specific plot lines, I wonder at some of the reactions over the portrayal, in fiction no less, of what two (or more) consenting adults choose to do.

    Besides, many a thing that is not romantic, nor even generically “romance,” to me, may well be the single most romantic thing of his or her life to someone else.

    Once upon a time, after all, it was widely held to be unethical, and disgusting, and sinful for people of different faiths to be in love–let alone marry and have children. Not too long ago it was interracial relationships that drew society’s fire. Then it was homosexual relationships. Then it was anything that hinted at BDSM, then polyamory, then… Well, I’m sure you get my drift: all of these so-called unnatural, unethical, sinful, stories were deemed outside of the realm of genre romance–and yet they are the loving, romantic reality for many, many people.

    My line, if I may call it that, would be that only adults be involved, and that they (two, three, however many) are all fully and freely consenting to whatever it is they are involved in.

    This line does make it impossible for me to consider any abuse–from rape to the sexual abuse (including seduction) of a minor–as romantic. The crossing of that specific line would make any such story not romantic in any way. Otherwise, I believe it’s not my place to decide what other people consider to be a romance.

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  • Ann Bruce
    November 27
    1:32 am

    However, I would consider a story about a couple who roleplay a Daddy/Daughter relationship.

    I’m reminded of those icky father-daughter purity balls.

    *shudder*

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    November 27
    2:15 am

    I agree with sarah. I for one would not want to read anything that’s fantasy or not. As a person who had to go through with this in real life just makes me sick. It also makes me wonder about some of these people out there.

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  • Anonymous
    November 27
    2:44 am

    Kayleigh-

    What’s your new book called and where is it published? I love f/f/m and want to check it out!

    Thanks,
    Jen

    ReplyReply


  • Shannon C.
    November 27
    2:51 am

    I love how this blog generates such interesting conversation.

    F/F romance: I know there’s no market for it except from my own personal inner Amazon chick, (and nobody is writing to please me, even though they all should because my opinion is the only one that matters. *LOL*) I even understand why. It just makes my inner amazon a little sad. Although I’m glad my whining resulted in someone pointing out a new book. I’ll be buying Kayleigh Jamison’s book after finals as a reward for getting through the semester.

    Daddy/daughter, rape etc. as romance: I think role playing is all well and good in sexual situations, and hey, whatever two consenting adults do with their time is none of my business. But I think that such stories would require one hell of an amazing writer in order to sell me, even though I understand the logic behind both fantasies. Of course, I also acknowledge that I am Prudey McPruderson from Prudesville, and even mild BDSM squicks me. So what do I know? *LOL*

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  • Jennifer McKenzie
    November 27
    4:20 am

    What fascinates me about this topic is that old argument about arguing “where the line is” has come up again.
    For me, the thing that constitutes a “romance” is a committed relationship at the end (whether it be f/f, threesome, whatever).
    Yet, there are several books that are touted as “romance” that DON’T end on that note. In fact, a HEA is no longer a requirement.
    Though I don’t think role playing of the Daddy/daughter type would be something that does it for me, that doesn’t mean it can’t be done in a meaningful and romantic way.
    What I hate about some “romance” is that the writing seems to be about being HOT rather than romantic. I’m of the opinion it can be both.
    The thing is that some of us would find dressing up in leather and being whipped totally yucky.
    And some of us wouldn’t.
    I just hate the gratuitous sex with no real connection.
    If I want that, I’ll friggin’ buy a male prostitute. Though I guess a book would be cheaper….

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    November 27
    5:27 am

    This is probably a really bad first post topic, lol.

    Jaid Black had an erotic romance out a few years ago called One Dark Night published by Berkley. It had a significant Daddy/Daughter role playing under current. It wasn’t a theme, but definitely noticeable. I was pretty squicked out about it.
    -Debra

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  • kirsten saell
    November 27
    7:54 am

    Ain’t much that actually squicks me out. The only thing, really, is visceral physical suffering–hate it in any context, not just sexual, so movies like Saw and The Hills Have Eyes just make me cringe and want to hide. Bleh. I think those movies do more harm to the average kid than if you just let them watch the Playboy Channel 24/7.

    Anyone who’s totally appalled by the D/d thing or forced seduction should read Nancy Friday’s Women on Top Actually, anyone who’s a woman should read both WOT and My Secret Garden and see the changes in women’s fantasies as the sexual revolution allowed women to take control of their sex lives.

    As for ff and mff, I really do enjoy it more than just about anything else, and I lament the lack of quality choices out there. I have a m/f coming out from Samhain in March, and I’m hoping they’ll bite again on one of my current WIPs, both mff. In the meantime, I’ll be picking Kayleigh’s mff up ASAP.

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  • chandy
    November 27
    8:49 am

    Wow, now I truly believe that we women are the ones who perpetrate the abuse that so many children and women suffer through. There’s no way any publisher can justify this filth, analyse and intellectualise it, knowing full well how the male mind works.

    Obviously money/greed is the deciding factor, so I’ll be using mine somewhere else.

    Totally disgusted and pissed off.

    ReplyReply


  • Shannon Stacey
    November 27
    1:03 pm

    I’m waiting for the list of the creme de la creme to go up.

    And while I’ll admit I cut my romance-reading teeth on the forced-seduction romances of the 80′s, the Daddy thing is nasty. Which means it will sell like crazy.

    ReplyReply


  • Anne
    November 27
    1:38 pm

    For example, spanking can be couched within a DD roleplay.

    Okay, I was going to walk away and say nothing more until I saw this. This offends me on the deepest level. Why you might ask? Because my father, when we were younger, was an abusive man, and his spankings were meant for punishment and belittling. Any way you were to portray a DD with spanking would make me thing of that and that’s not something I wish to remember. Ever again.

    As Sarah said, just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

    This is taking it one (or ten) step too far past the boundaries touching on the squick factor.

    ReplyReply


  • Anne
    November 27
    1:52 pm

    BTW- for those looking for f/f, Sheri Livingston at Loose ID writes it.

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  • Kat O+
    November 27
    2:14 pm

    This offends me on the deepest level.
    Well, it obviously isn’t for everyone. And I can understand that if you have a personal issue that precludes a subset of novels out there, then it’s only logical that you’d avoid them and, yes, even be offended by them. But if publishers were to refuse any kind of theme or topic or plot point or sexcapade that might offend a person, we’d have nothing left to read. Forced seduction, BDSM, adultery/cheating, May/December romance, Stockholm Syndrome, bestiality (in the shapeshifter context), menage, sex outside of marriage–every single one of these will no doubt be offensive to readers out there whose personal experiences make these scenarios unacceptable, but to exclude them all on that basis alone would be a great loss to the genre because there have been some excellently written books that have tackled these issues very well. (And, I’m sure, even some not-so-well written books that have sold well.)

    Look, I’m not saying I advocate incest, because I don’t. All I’m saying is that I wouldn’t automatically write off a publisher that is considering a DD role-play, because it just *might* be possible that a good author can make it work. And if that book is ever written, we can judge the hypothetical author’s work on its own merit. After all, how many readers have hesitated to read BDSM or menage and now have Joey Hill and Emma Holly on their shelves?

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  • Sarah McCarty
    November 27
    4:04 pm

    Chandy-

    Excellent post and pretty much says it all. Nothing more to be said.

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  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    5:05 pm

    Anything you can think of to write, someone out there is going to want to read it, no matter how awful you think it is.

    I realise that, and accept it even, but I sure don’t want it being labelled a romance.

    A guy who has little girl fantasies does not belong on the pages of a romance, he belongs in jail.

    As far as I’m concerned twincest, incest, and books where the characters get off on peeing on each other is fetish, and at no point should ever be considered romantic. Perverted maybe, but certainly not romantic.

    As for the Menage, BDSM argument, I think that most people accept that there can be romantic elements to these stories, because they involve consenting adults, who aren’t necessarily related to each other.

    Brothers fucking their brothers, fathers fucking their daughters, and the likes, is morally wrong, as far as I’m concerned, and the thought that somebody would try to romanticise it, is enough to make me feel ill.

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  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    6:40 pm

    I love me some twincest (sorry, but I do!),

    Ally, can I ask what in particular you like about Twincest books?

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  • Ally Blue
    November 27
    7:20 pm

    Karen, all points taken and completely understood. Many of the things you mentioned make ME feel ill as well. A parent/child thing, you know, that’s an issue of abuse to me, at least as it pertains to REAL parent and child rather than role-playing. But other than that, two or more CONSENTING ADULTS (and those are absolute criteria for me) may do whatever they please, in real life or fiction.

    I’m probably gonna get in trouble for this one, but morality is not an absolute. We all think OUR morality is The Truth (me included), but it isn’t. I know people who absolutely believe homosexuality is wrong, immoral, a heinous sin, etc etc. I absolutely believe it’s as normal and natural as heterosexuality. So who’s right?
    Well, I am, of course *g*
    But you see my point. Those people and I will always disagree, and each of us will believe ourselves to be in the right until the day we die.

    Is twincest/BDSM/insert-your-kink-here romance? IMHO, and according to how most people define romance, it depends on two things: the developing relationship, and the ending. If the two (or more) people fall in love and get their happy ending, that’s a romance, according to most accepted definitions of the word. If they happen to like (for example) golden showers, ew, but hey, whatever floats their boat. I don’t think it makes them any less in love, or their HEA any less happy.

    What do I like about twincest? You know, I had to think really hard about that. What IS it, exactly, that turns my crank when I read about twin men in love? Here’s my theory. I’m not a terribly open person. I have lots of friends who I love, sure, but there is not one single person in this world who knows everything about me. But that’s exactly the sort of relationship I’ve always longed to have. I think what I like about twins in love is the fact that there is such a close bond there. Twins often have a very emotionally intimate relationship in the first place. Extending that to romantic love and sex makes it seem, to me, that the relationship becomes something of my own personal ideal: one person who knows, accepts and loves every single thing about you. No hiding, no secrets. I know that can happen (theoretically) outside of a sibling relationship, but who else can really know you since before birth?

    Maybe I’m full of shit LOL. But that’s my working theory. Many thanks for the fascinating discussion :D

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  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    7:40 pm

    No hiding, no secrets. I know that can happen (theoretically) outside of a sibling relationship, but who else can really know you since before birth?

    Your mother?

    Seriously, what you describe is the perfect relationship, but why does sex have to come into it? And I guess that my next question has to be, if you had a twin, would you consider having sex with him/her?

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  • Ally Blue
    November 27
    7:54 pm

    Seriously, what you describe is the perfect relationship, but why does sex have to come into it?

    For many people, sex is the ultimate act of trust and vulnerability. For me, I think that’s the clincher. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone else, of course, that’s just my own viewpoint.

    And I guess that my next question has to be, if you had a twin, would you consider having sex with him/her?

    Oh GAWD no. No no no no no. NO. No way.
    BUT, again, I can’t speak for everyone. The sex drive is one of the most powerful urges we humans have, and it is decidedly amoral. It still operates more or less on instinct, and hasn’t caught up with the restrictions society has put on who we are and are not allowed to be attracted to.
    Hm, so maybe I should say, I don’t THINK I’d want to get horizontal with my twin, if I had one. I sure don’t have those feelings for my non-twin sister.

    Your mother?

    My mother’s dead. I think everyone would appreciate not getting into THAT kink O_O
    **shudders**

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  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 27
    8:05 pm

    I know people who absolutely believe homosexuality is wrong, immoral, a heinous sin, etc etc.

    And I’ll take that one step further, and say some of those people also believe homosexuality is harmful to other people, destroys families, endangers children, corrupts society, etc. They think homosexuals should be locked up in psyche wards or worse.

    A guy who has little girl fantasies does not belong on the pages of a romance, he belongs in jail.

    I’m curious…if you change the pronouns in this statement from male to female, do you feel the same way? Does she belong in jail? Or does she need psychiatric help? How about those women who – in every single poll I’ve seen – cite “rape” among their top 10 sexual fantasies?

    Wow, now I truly believe that we women are the ones who perpetrate the abuse that so many children and women suffer through.

    I agree with this statement, but not in this context. I’ve always been curious why women are so quick to attack other women when it comes to matters of sexuality and sexual behavior. I wonder how much harm we do when we judge them so harshly.

    I’m really not surprised by the controversy this topic has generated. Even the “experts” disagree on where normal sexuality ends and perversion begins.

    I’m sorry if I’ve offended some of you. I’m just not willing to demonize any normal, healthy woman for her fantasies or roleplaying within the confines of an adult, consentual relationship.

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  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    8:13 pm

    I’m curious…if you change the pronouns in this statement from male to female, do you feel the same way?

    Hell, yes. Any adult who fantasizes about children is seriously disturbed, they go past psychological evaluation, and straight to jail, as far as I’m concerned.

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  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 27
    8:21 pm

    Hell, yes. Any adult who fantasizes about children is seriously disturbed, they go past psychological evaluation, and straight to jail, as far as I’m concerned.

    Okay, just to clarify…if she enjoys fantasizing she’s, say, 16, and she’s with an older man – say, 35 – she is seriously disturbed, needs psychiatric evaluation and put in jail? I just want to make sure I understand your thoughts on this.

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  • azteclady
    November 27
    8:21 pm

    The key words in Ms Noble’s last paragraph above, are “within the context of an adult, consensual relationship.”

    At least, for me.

    In the realm of fanfiction–specifically Harry Potter ff–twincest crops up quite often. In many cases the writing (plot, characterization, grammar, all the above) is so poor, there’s no excuse no matter what the main storyline. In other cases, a skillful writer gets everything right and manages to convey the anguish such a couple would feel.

    Is it my cup of tea? No. No more than golden showers or f/f are. But it not being what I like doesn’t automatically make it disgusting, IMO.

    Introduce children to any of those scenarios, though, and all bets are off for me.

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  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    8:51 pm

    Okay, just to clarify…if she enjoys fantasizing she’s, say, 16, and she’s with an older man – say, 35 – she is seriously disturbed, needs psychiatric evaluation and put in jail?

    In England, 16 is the age of consent, so that’s not a good example, but if you mean if the female was for instance, 12 year old girl, then I’m sure you know that this changes the dynamics altogether. She’s a child, fantasizing about having sex with somebody old enough to be her father. I’d say that was a little bit worrying wouldn’t you?

    In short, a twelve year old girl, or even a sixteen year old, fantasizing about having sex with a 35 year old man is a totally different proposition to a 35 year old man having fantasies about a twelve year old, and that distinction should be quite obvious IMO.

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  • azteclady
    November 27
    8:58 pm

    Out of curiosity–and definitely not speaking for Ms Noble–if we are talking about two people well into their thirties who fantasize about having a daddy/daughter relationship, is this immoral too?

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  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    9:14 pm

    Out of curiosity–and definitely not speaking for Ms Noble–if we are talking about two people well into their thirties who fantasize about having a daddy/daughter relationship, is this immoral too?

    It depends on how far the role play goes. Is the ‘daughter’ of consenting age? If the ‘daughter is a twelve year old girl, then yep, still immoral. It suggests to me that this is a fantasy that works for the man, and I don’t ever want to accept that as ok.

    If the ‘daughter’ is of consenting age, then it gets upgraded to a ‘that’s ‘just not my cuppa, and different strokes for different folks’ category.

    I still don’t want to read about it in a romance though.

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  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 27
    9:14 pm

    In short, a twelve year old girl, or even a sixteen year old, fantasizing about having sex with a 35 year old man is a totally different proposition to a 35 year old man having fantasies about a twelve year old, and that distinction should be quite obvious IMO.

    Uh huh, it is obvious. Thank you for explaining.

    I think this might bring me full circle. Since my main target audience is women, and I know for a fact some women have these types of fantasies, if I receive a submission that contains this kind of fantasy within the context of an adult, consentual relationship, and the author did a good job couching this all within a romantic relationship, and the story captures my attention and holds it…I’m going to buy it, and I’m going to publish it.

    ReplyReply


  • Jill Noelle Noble
    November 27
    10:41 pm

    This kind of ties in to what we’ve been discussing here. ;-)

    Sort of…

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071127/ap_en_ot/books_bad_sex

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    10:51 pm

    Ewwww…

    ReplyReply


  • Karen Scott
    November 27
    11:05 pm

    By the way Jill, it may be just my computer, but the book covers on the homepage aren’t opening up. I can only see square boxes with a red cross in the corner.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    November 27
    11:57 pm


    It depends on how far the role play goes. Is the ‘daughter’ of consenting age? If the ‘daughter is a twelve year old girl, then yep, still immoral. It suggests to me that this is a fantasy that works for the man, and I don’t ever want to accept that as ok.

    I think this is where I’m looking at it, too, although just in general anything themed DD wouldn’t appeal to me.

    However, if we’re roleplaying and the woman ‘pretending’ to be a girl under… oh say…16, 17, 18… especially if she’s acting ‘childlike’… and the man is aroused by that, this bothers me. Because I would have to wonder, if he is turned on by a woman acting like a child… what about all the children, the 11, 12, 13 year old girl, or younger, that try to be adult? Will he be aroused by them? If there is a precocious girl in their future, would he be aroused by her?

    It’s disturbing. To me, that he could be aroused by sexualizing a child, or a woman pretending to be one, this says nothing noble around the hero. All heroes, no matter how darkly they are drawn, have some noble quality to them. Something that makes them a hero. A man that can somehow sexualize a child doesn’t belong in ‘hero’ category.

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  • Fae
    November 28
    12:13 am

    I’ve simply always been of the mind that love is a good thing. If two or more people are adults and consenting, then there is nothing out of bounds for me. They can do whatever they please with each other and that does not make them any less in love.

    As for incest…again, adults, consenting, I have no issue with it. Especially as it pertains to gay incest, being as most people’s biggest objection is the possible deformities if children were to occur. Can’t happen with family members of the same sex.

    No one has any right to tell two grown adults who they can and cannot, should or should not love, nor what those two people should do in the privacy of their own bedroom/living room/BDSM club etc. I was married to a black man. Less than 30 years ago that would have been the height of an objectionable relationship and deemed a sin and a travesty and amoral. Those people were wrong. I think anyone who puts limits on love between two adults, in whatever capacity and whatever their kinks, is just as wrong.

    Just my opinion, of course.

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  • Karen Scott
    November 28
    12:27 am

    I was married to a black man. Less than 30 years ago that would have been the height of an objectionable relationship and deemed a sin and a travesty and amoral.

    Are you really comparing inter-racial relationships to incest?

    ReplyReply


  • Kayleigh Jamison
    November 28
    12:28 am

    Kayleigh-

    What’s your new book called and where is it published? I love f/f/m and want to check it out!

    Thanks,
    Jen

    Hi Jen,

    It’s available in ebook at ARe and as soon as they upload it, Fictionwise, and will be in print February 15th at all the usual places. Thanks for asking!

    -Kayleigh

    ReplyReply


  • Fae
    November 28
    12:39 am

    “Are you really comparing inter-racial relationships to incest?”

    Not so long ago the great majority of the civilized world would have put it on the same level in terms of being immoral and disgusting and sinful.

    We’ve changed since then. And we will continue to do so. Please do realize that I am talking about incest between adults, not anything involving anyone under the age of consent.

    Fae

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  • Shiloh Walker
    November 28
    12:49 am

    Please do realize that I am talking about incest between adults, not anything involving anyone under the age of consent.

    This is disturbing.

    What I’d like to know is this… would you have similar thoughts if it was somebody you loved? I don’t know if you have a family, kids, etc, but say you were married, and you married and divorced a guy… but not before you had kids with him. Then you ex-husband and daughter, once she was 18, decided they wanted a such a relationship.

    Would that bother you?

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  • Fae
    November 28
    12:56 am

    “What I’d like to know is this… would you have similar thoughts if it was somebody you loved? I don’t know if you have a family, kids, etc, but say you were married, and you married and divorced a guy… but not before you had kids with him. Then you ex-husband and daughter, once she was 18, decided they wanted a such a relationship.

    Would that bother you?”

    Indeed it would. However, just because something bothers me and I wouldn’t personally participate in it doesn’t mean it’s wrong for everyone in the whole world. That’d be just a bit egotistical of me, I think.

    There’s quite a few things that bother me or that I find unappealing or simply don’t “get” as far as kinks and relationships go. But it’s not me it involves, so I don’t feel I have any say in what is and is not right for those people who are not me.

    I can only say what is and is not right for me.

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  • Karen Scott
    November 28
    12:57 am

    Also, what if you had two children who were of consenting age, who decided to embark on a sexual relationship with each other?

    What if your father started sleeping with your old-enough sister or brother?

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  • Shiloh Walker
    November 28
    1:10 am

    I wouldn’t personally participate in it doesn’t mean it’s wrong for everyone in the whole world.

    I think I’m of the mind that some things should be wrong~some things are.

    Incest is one of them.

    No amount of people saying “Perhaps it’s wrong for you” is going to change how I see it.

    With that said, I’m bowing out of this conversation. Frankly, it’s leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

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  • azteclady
    November 28
    1:29 am

    Fae said, “Indeed it would. However, just because something bothers me and I wouldn’t personally participate in it doesn’t mean it’s wrong for everyone in the whole world. That’d be just a bit egotistical of me, I think.

    There’s quite a few things that bother me or that I find unappealing or simply don’t “get” as far as kinks and relationships go. But it’s not me it involves, so I don’t feel I have any say in what is and is not right for those people who are not me.

    I can only say what is and is not right for me.”

    Which reminds me of a quote by Thomas Jefferson:
    “But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

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  • Michelle
    November 28
    2:18 am

    Re: incest I think it matters what context.
    Say a man has sex with his over 18stepdaughter whom he has helped raise that would be sickening even though they aren’t genetically related. (Woody Allen anyone?)

    However, if there were 2 siblings or half siblings that were raised apart and then met and fell in love that wouldn’t bother me.

    I never liked the stories where hero raise ward like his child then marries her-yuck.

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  • Annette
    November 28
    3:24 am

    I’m just curious. What about incest that was historically legal/acceptable (e.g. ancient Egypt and Persia and the Old Testament races including the Israelites) or takes place in a science fiction/fantasy universe where it is part of the culture and physiologically viable? Or actual marriages in our own past between underage girls and mature men. Margaret Beaufort was married to Edmund Tudor and, at 13, bore him a son, the future Henry VII. And Isabella of France was 8 when she married twenty-something Richard II of England. Do these cross the line with regards to what you deem permissible in a romance? Does context not count as well?

    I agree with Ms. Veinglory that there is a *big* difference between ‘not for me’ and ‘not romance’. As they say, one person’s meat is another’s poison. I was more troubled by what seems to be the highly judgmental tenor of some of the comments, verging as it were on disdain and disapproval of those whose personal boundaries are a little more flexible.

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  • Still Anonymous
    November 28
    4:03 am

    For example, spanking can be couched within a DD roleplay.

    It can? Hmmm…this is the first time I’ve heard of this. What if your parents didnt believe in spanking but as an adult you liked to get spanked…

    Wouldnt you just be a masochist and not someone who has “daddy fantasies” or whatever they’re called?

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  • I don't think so
    November 28
    4:34 am

    to be fair, the beginning comment didn’t say she wanted incest stories. She said she would be willing to print a ROLE PLAY story with a Daddy daughter dynamic…

    By the way, this isn’t necessarily (or most likely, when roleplayed by 2 over the age of consent adults) a form of pedophilia. Psychologically speaking, the “Daddy” is looking to feel young again, and the “Daughter” is looking for safety and security…
    Or they are just kinky bastids and frankly as long as they aren’t breaking the laws of this fair nation, thats their business.

    It may not be my personal thing, but as long as it is labeled , I don’t have a problem with it..

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  • Kat O+
    November 28
    5:40 am

    It can? Hmmm…this is the first time I’ve heard of this. What if your parents didnt believe in spanking but as an adult you liked to get spanked…

    Wouldnt you just be a masochist and not someone who has “daddy fantasies” or whatever they’re called?

    I said it can (although I really meant “could”). Which is to say, I was trying to come up with an example of how one could write a DD role-play. Obviously, it’s only one possibility. Obviously, not all spanking must be framed within a DD role-play. Etc.

    And I would argue that the characters (and the readers) don’t always need to have daddy fantasies to enact (or read) a DD role-play. Just as enacting a teacher-student fantasy doesn’t necessarily mean they want to sleep with their teachers in general or even one particular teacher. It’s just a scenario used to act out the kink, whatever it might be.

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  • Annette
    November 28
    10:19 am

    I left this comment for the earlier post re the opening of a new publishing house and am repeating it here since the subject matter is very closely related. I hope I’m not breaking any rules by doing so.

    I’m just curious. What about incest that was historically legal/acceptable (e.g. ancient Egypt and Persia and the Old Testament races including the Israelites) or takes place in a science fiction/fantasy universe where it is part of the culture and physiologically viable? Or actual marriages in our own past between underage girls and mature men. Margaret Beaufort was married to Edmund Tudor and, at 13, bore him a son, the future Henry VII. And Isabella of France was 8 when she married twenty-something Richard II of England. Do these cross the line with regards to what you deem permissible in a romance? Does context not count as well?

    I agree with Ms. Veinglory that there is a *big* difference between ‘not for me’ and ‘not romance’. As they say, one person’s meat is another’s poison. I was more troubled by what seems to be the highly judgmental tenor of some of the comments, verging as it were on disdain and disapproval of those whose personal boundaries are a little more flexible.

    ReplyReply


  • Annette
    November 28
    1:26 pm

    I’m not sure how the above comment ended up here when it was meant for the next post. My apologies. I hope you can delete it.

    ReplyReply

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