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I really love you guys because you are my eyes and ears (Wait, wasn’t that a column run by one of the twins in F. Pascal’s Sweet Valley High?)

Anyway, I think I got to the bottom of the whole Mrs Giggles v Phaze thing. (Do these people ever learn?)

According to Alessia Brio’s blog post, Mrs G put up a post called Poetry, that read a little something like this:

“There are people who enjoy reading poetry, but I am not one of them. The only poetry for grown-ups that I can appreciate are those by WB Yeats, but that’s because he’s kinda cute in the photo on the cover of the collection of his poems that I own. Even if the poem in question is supposed to be erotic, it goes right over my head. I guess I’m just not that kind of literate/artistic people. I only like rude poems found in kiddie books, but that’s about it, I’m afraid.

But hey, don’t let me stop you from enjoying things like Phaze In Verse. It’s an EPPIE-nominated thing, after all. For the life of me, though, I can’t imagine what kind of poetry one can write about a publishing house. Sonnets of appreciation for getting published? Sordid haikus about the orgies that went on in the recent company Christmas party?

By the way, is it just me or Phaze’s publishing roster when it comes to erotic stuff comprise mostly folks from Literotica?”

Now I already read this entry a few days earlier, and you know me, I fancy I can smell an actual blog row from miles away, but I didn’t even get so much as a nose twitch.

Anyway, apparently, some of the rabid Phaze authors started getting all defensive and calling Mrs G, The Devil’s Spawn (erm.. paraphrasing obviously) for daring to suggest that they write porn for Literotica. or as Alessia Brio put it:

“A couple of Phaze authors posted clarifications”

Uh huh, I’ve seen e-authors and their clarifications before. *g*

From what I hear, it was a similar kind of total overreaction to that of some of the crazy people over at Changeling Press, after I posted what was supposed to be a public service announcement, albeit a little tongue-in-cheek.

It has been suggested that the reason that some of these authors reacted so badly is because some of them did indeed start life at Literotica, and perhaps don’t want the likes of me going and finding posts where they tell all and sundry about what they’re into. Apparently, some of the authors at Literotica are very graphic about their sex lives, and so the now respectable Phaze authors probably don’t want their sexual proclivities being unearthed. Ooh er missus.

Anyhoo, this is what Alessia Brio wrote on her blog:

“Yeah, it’s a little snarky… but, really, not too objectionable. (In truth, maybe 10% of Phaze’s roster of 120+ authors has Literotica roots, if that. I take the blame credit for that, as I enthusiastically encouraged some of my Lit colleagues to submit their work to Phaze. I also took one of the earlier Coming Together anthologies to Phaze. It will be released in print on the 7th, by the way. *grin*) I looked at the initial post as a positive, in general. Free publicity with a link directly to the buy page. A couple of Phaze authors posted clarifications and suddenly, we’re a coven of creepy authors for wanting to set the record straight.

A cult, mind you. I’d say that comes dangerously close to libel.

Seriously, what gives? Cults don’t allow their members to speak out. (Oh, wait — that was another publisher — one that blacklisted authors who didn’t behave.) Cults don’t let their members belong to other cults… erm, publishers. (Damn, close to half of Phaze’s roster has work also published elsewhere — with its blessing, even.) Cults don’t let their members go without a fight. (I can attest that no one’s a prisoner at Phaze.)

I have to say, I thought Mrs G was rather polite, I’d have been more likely to call them fucknuts, and tell them to get the fuck off my blog, so really, in the great scheme of things, a teeny tiny comment about a few of their authors being Literotica writers probably isn’t that bad methinks.

As for the authors who started life at Literotica, so far I got:

Alessia Brio
Aurora Black
Will Belegon
Selena Kitt

Apparently, there are quite a few more, but that would mean actually looking.

Ok I started looking and came across this question by a Lit author (I’m assuming he/she wasn’t from Phaze, but you never know.)

“I was wondering if It reading and writing about underage incest fantays..especially about younger girls….is as disgusting as I sometimes feel it is. I do NOT condone Kiddy porn NOR sexual abuse in any way of minors, but it is still a fantasy of mine….but not that I wan’t to be WITH the girl, but that I wan’t to BE the girl….so would writing fantays like that make me a bad person?”

He/she doesn’t condone kiddie porn, but fantasizes about having underage sex with a family member? Ok then.

This answer from one of the other members, made me want to go and take a bath:

“It is hard for me to believe that thinking is a crime, I certainly hope you WILL explore these fantasies for us in print. I would love to have a womans perspective on what it would be like to have sex at say 15 with your father….. I suspect the emotions and feelings would be far more erotic than anything I can imagine. Sex for the first time for a little girl has to be painful, but emotionally rewarding at the same time. I hope you will explore this! I know I would love to read it.”

Emotionally rewarding? Yeah, whatever. That dude is a pedo waiting to happen, if it hasn’t already.

Anyway, Selena Kitten, a current Phaze author thinks there’s no harm in it, because after all, it’s just a fantasy. She writes:

“But the FANTASY of such a thing – NOT the reality, the FANTASY… is a turn on for some. Of both genders. As DCL mentioned (god this is an OLD thread, isn’t it??) thinking is not a crime.

Unless I slipped into Big Brother territory when I wasn’t looking…
__________________
*~*~Selena~*~* “

I’m assuming that some of the authors might have engaged in similarly open conversations about their likes and dislikes, and just want it to stay hidden. Who can blame them? Blech.

The more I read, the more I decide I am way to prudish to continue, so I’ll let you guys read for yourselves. (Oh look out for some dude called Amicus, his views are…interesting, shall we say.)

It always amazes me that authors, especially those that are e-pubbed, seem to have so little self-control, when it comes to perceived slights. Dudes, if you’ve written for Literotica, why get mad over somebody publicising it? And if you haven’t written for Literotica, why assume that everybody will assume that you have written for them just because you write for the same publisher that former Literotica authors write for?

Did that last paragraph even make sense?

I’ve never been a Phaze fan, and having read three books that were kindly sent to me by one of the bods there, as well as the freebie stories that they offer up on their website, I don’t think that that status quo will change anytime soon (seeing as I hate badly edited books) and things like this just seals it for me.

And by the way, I can’t imagine that readers will care about whether or not their fave authors started life at Literotica, but the overreaction, now that’s always blogworthy. :)

Update:
Speaking of blogworthy, if any Phaze (or ex-Phaze) authors out there want to get in touch about some of the ‘interesting’ things that your fellow authors get up to, feel free to e-mail me at hairylemony @ gmail .com (without the spaces). You know me, confidentiality guaranteed. *g*

129 Comments »


  • December/Stacia
    January 4
    2:32 pm

    I would love to have a womans perspective on what it would be like to have sex at say 15 with your father….. I suspect the emotions and feelings would be far more erotic than anything I can imagine.

    Sure it is. There’s a whole list here of some of the wonderful effects and aftereffects of such sensual, erotic contact:

    RAINN Incest Information page. You can see how delightful it would be to an innocent child to be used as some sicko adult’s sex toy, icluding depression, self-mutilation, regressive behaviors, and anxiety. That’s HOT.

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  • Katie(babs)
    January 4
    2:47 pm

    I use to be a big fan of Literotica years ago before I stared reading Elloras Cave and other erotic ebooks. I was a junkie you could say. *G*. But for some reason there was a hell of alot incest fiction than anything else. Some of those stories were very scary to read I was more prone to read the horror and fantasy ones. Oh and of course some nice menage a trios stories. But those gang bang rape stories with the boss having his way with his employee while the husband watches…. yuk

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  • Cookie
    January 4
    2:57 pm

    “It is hard for me to believe that thinking is a crime, I certainly hope you WILL explore these fantasies for us in print. I would love to have a womans perspective on what it would be like to have sex at say 15 with your father….. I suspect the emotions and feelings would be far more erotic than anything I can imagine. Sex for the first time for a little girl has to be painful, but emotionally rewarding at the same time. I hope you will explore this! I know I would love to read it.”

    ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING. CAN YOU SAY PEDOPHILE, RAPIST? I’M SURE I CAN COME UP WITH MORE.

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  • heather (errantdreams)
    January 4
    3:31 pm

    I tried reading at literotica years ago before there was much erotica available through actual publishers, and it drove me nuts for two reasons. One, so much CRUD—and no way to know until you’d started reading something, so it took forever to find anything good. And two, an incredible prevalence of incest stories, which have ZERO appeal to me, and turn me off faster than a cold shower. It just wasn’t worth it to slog through the stuff there to find the one or two decent pieces. I’m glad there are now places like Ellora’s Cave so I can find things I’ll enjoy without having to stumble across the creepy things.

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  • Incest is not best
    January 4
    3:44 pm

    From Literotica forum

    My older sister and I shared a room as we were growing up. One day when I was 18, (Otherwise I couldn’t tell the story on Lit.) she walked in the room and caught me playing with my pussy.

    I was a very inexperienced young virgin girl at the time. Bonnie, my sister, helped me to discover the realpleasures of masturbation. She showed my that sweet spot, my hot, hard clit. I had my very first orgasm as she played with my clit and fingered my pussy.

    From that day on, we played with each other’s pussies almost every day. Bonnie was the first person to suck my tits (I came!), to eat my pussy (I came!), and to finger my ass (I came!)!!!

    I learned more about sex from her than I have ever learned from an other person. And it was always a pleasurable and joyous experience.

    Good lord.

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  • Cookie
    January 4
    3:51 pm

    TO: Incest is not best said…

    I want to thank you for posting that story here. You’ve now made me even more horrifyingly disgusted…so disgusted in fact that lunch is not an option for me today.

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  • Puppet truth
    January 4
    4:35 pm

    Good lord what is this world coming to. I tell you, this is why i don’t buy Phaze work, I’m always scared I’ll get something that will make me vomit.

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  • Nonny
    January 4
    5:09 pm

    Well. Playing Devil’s Advocate here, there is a difference between fantasy and reality. Just because somebody fantasizes about something doesn’t mean they would actually do it in real life. There’s all these studies and stuff that talk about rape being a common fantasy for women, but how many who have that fantasy would really want it to happen?

    I’ve known some folks who write incest fiction. They are very well-centered in reality and would never consider acting out their fantasies in reality, because some things are not healthy in reality and should be left as fantasy. It’s the people who don’t have a good grasp on reality that are the problem, and honestly… people who are child molesters have a bigger problem than their sexual desires.

    That all said, some of the stuff I’ve seen on Literotica squicks the everliving fuck out of me. It’s why I don’t read stories there. I read erotica to get off, not make me sick to my stomach. :P

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  • KMJ
    January 4
    5:14 pm

    I read a Phaze book that I was supposed to review. It had no less than six rape and/or attempted rape scenes. Several of them were told from the POV of the rapist/would-be-rapist using language that is typically reserved for consensual erotic scenes (“her dusky nipples enticed him”). One scene was told in that way from the POV of a a man attempting to rape his own daughter.

    I have no quarrel with rape and/or attempted rape used as part of the plot of a book without the intention to arouse or glorify the act. I can even understand it being told from the point of view of the rapist, particularly in a dark piece of work. I also don’t mind “borderline non-consensual” sex, like in some BDSM works (see Katrina Strauss’ Secrets Revealed for an example). But I personally can’t stomach graphic depictions of rape in an erotic romance.

    I was so disgusted with the book that not only did I refuse to review it, I emailed Phaze and laid my complaints out on the table. Surprise surprise, I never got a response.

    KMJ

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  • Incest is not best
    January 4
    5:31 pm

    It gets better

    I’ll give with my story. Incest is a big turn-on for me. Probably has to do with my formative years (after I turned 18 that is). About the time my hormones began sizzling through my bloodstream like 7-up in a tall glass of ice, I started having some fairly advanced sex with my two sisters. At first it was just a little finger fucking, but then I started eating pussy and finally graduated to ass fucking my little sister one night. Of course we did plenty of, between the thighs, bump and grind. All in all, no harm done. We eventually grew out of that phase and went on, but I still get wild wood reading hot incest stories.

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  • Puppet truth
    January 4
    5:38 pm

    Sweet Jesus in a candy store! And these people publish??!! Im sorry but if I wanted to read that kinda crap, I would buy those forum confessions books the dirty old I see on the subway read.

    Again, the possibility that a book is being published by Phaze like that makes me not wanna buy a thing!

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  • December/Stacia
    January 4
    5:56 pm

    I really don’t have a problem with fantasies themselves or even people writing their fantasies down for themselves, but when a man says he thinks having sex with her father must be an amazing and erotic experience…that’s where I get squicked. We all have fantasies we might be a little embarrassed by or ashamed of, but we know they’re creepy or degrading.

    (And I have two little girls who share a bedroom, so that first excerpt made me ill.)

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  • December/Stacia
    January 4
    5:58 pm

    An amazing and erotic experience for a young girl, I meant to say.

    ReplyReply


  • Incest is not best
    January 4
    6:07 pm

    These are not just fantasies if the people who have written them are to believed.

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    7:06 pm

    I am shocked at the blind blanket of ignorance being thrown over the truth here.

    I started at Lit. Anyone who has ever read my bio or blog knows that. I still have a lot of poetry and a few stories there. I have NEVER submitted or written an incest story. Lit has more than a dozen “categories”. If you look at the category, you should know what you are getting.
    And there is no pedophilia on Lit. The site owners are very quick to
    reject any mention of a person under 18.

    To come here, in blog or comments, and start painting people with a brush so inflammatory is unethical at best. I resent the implication.

    If you want to make specific comments about specific pieces of writing? No Problem. But please leave the Karl Rove-style tactics in the gutter where they belong. What is this, an online version of the Jerry Springer show?

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    7:15 pm

    If you want to make specific comments about specific pieces of writing? No Problem. But please leave the Karl Rove-style tactics in the gutter where they belong. What is this, an online version of the Jerry Springer show?

    Will honey, you really need to do yourself a favour, and do your research first. Oh yeah, and check out the title of the blog too, cuz unlike Mrs G, I will tell you, and anybody else who comes waving their stick here to fuck off if I feel it’s necessary. Ok?

    As for being Jerry Springer-like, well the way I hear it, you’d know more about that than I would. Know what I mean? :)

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    7:31 pm

    To come here, in blog or comments, and start painting people with a brush so inflammatory is unethical at best. I resent the implication.

    I obviously missed where this happened. My original post certainly didn’t do that, so I’m wondering what exactly you’re reading?

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    7:32 pm

    How would I know more than you? Would you like to make a specific reference? Because I don’t have any clue what you “mean”…

    I was not a part of the dustup over Mrs. G. No, I’m here because my name is mentioned above. If you want to call me to task for defending myself about being associated with concepts I find abhorrent, like rape and incest, then I find that misguided.

    Its simple. You used my name. That caught my attention. I don’t want to be associated with certain concepts being thrown about here.

    Say what you want, of course. But you’re headline is incorrect. I’m a Phaze author. I’m not angry about allegations that could be proven by looking at my bio or putting my name in Google. I am disturbed by the idea that someone could decide who I am or what I write by looking at this.

    Of course, I’m not accusing anyone of thinking that I have anything like the twisted mentality of Amicus. I’m glad that my beliefs disgust him. He’s a trip. *g*

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  • Kayleigh Jamison
    January 4
    7:35 pm

    If you want to make specific comments about specific pieces of writing? No Problem. But please leave the Karl Rove-style tactics in the gutter where they belong. What is this, an online version of the Jerry Springer show?

    Well, color me misinformed, then, but posting specific quotes from specific pieces verbatim seems rather, um…specific to me.

    Just sayin’.

    And as for the Jerry Springer comment, you DO move in e-pub circles, right?

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  • sallahdog
    January 4
    7:36 pm

    karen, you know I love ya (even if you don’t care)…but dang..womens have gotten their knickers in a complete twist over nuttin.

    Literotica has clearly defined headings, and doesn’t allow sexin with minors in their stories. I know this because I go there and read perverted stories FOR FREE, rather than paying for them at Phaze..Let me just say, that one of the biggest no nos on that site is to put an incest story in another category, so there is no accidental twincest reading going on..

    Methinks some chickies from here went and read categories JUST to get their head of steam up or to cop a secret thrill.

    Some stories are crap, but even those can be fun, because they are craptastic.

    Fantasies are just that, fantasies. People fantasize all the time about things they wouldn’t want to happen to them in real life…

    Are their some giant perverts hanging around Literotica? Well of course, but there are giant perverts hanging out all over the net. At least the Ones on Literotica site have big blicking neon signs on them screaming “Hey you guys, I AM A PERVERT!” Instead of them hanging out on teen websites pretending to be 14 year old boys (or girls for that matter)… Think of it as a pervert reservation, or zoo, where you can visit in order to point and shriek, or to tsk tsk. (as is your pleasure, and mine for that matter)

    Some of the writers on that site actually write a lot better than some of the crap I used to spend good money on at ebooksites. Which is why I don’t bother to pay for a dirty story anymore.

    Happy belated Holidays Karen and here is hoping for a HUGEY successful year, full of asshattery and delicious spats. I will be sitting in the front row.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    7:38 pm

    If you want to call me to task for defending myself about being associated with concepts I find abhorrent, like rape and incest, then I find that misguided.

    What are you defending yourself against?

    You were merely named as one of the authors who have written for Literotica. Did I suggest that you were into incest stories, or had rape fantasies? Did I?

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    7:44 pm

    You quote my name less than two column inches before you go into conversations about pedophilia and incest. I know the thread you quoted and I have not read it nor will.

    Then there are a lot of general comments about things that have nothing to do with me, but no one could tell that.

    To echo Nonny, I’ve seen stuff on Lit that squicks the everliving fuck out of me, too.

    I don’t read that stuff and I sure as hell don’t write it. But I don’t wish to start venturing down the slippery slope of censorship either. So I just stay away.

    BTW, in “disclosure”, I have personal relationships with all the people named, especially Alessia. So I have an obvious and admitted bias there. But they are literate and intelligent women more than capable of protecting themselves.

    Someone attacks them in other ways, I’ll play White Knight, sure. But I’m not here on that agenda right now.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    7:47 pm

    Happy belated Holidays Karen and here is hoping for a HUGEY successful year, full of asshattery and delicious spats. I will be sitting in the front row.

    And the same to you SD. I’m pretty sure that there will be more asshattery and delicious spats as the year goes on, let’s face it, it’s only Day 4, and we have some fine examples already. :)

    You quote my name less than two column inches before you go into conversations about pedophilia and incest.

    That’s just proof that you’ve never read my blog before, and that you didn’t read the post properly.

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  • M
    January 4
    7:52 pm

    BTW, in “disclosure”, I have personal relationships with all the people named, especially Alessia.

    Mmmhm, we’re aware of that biblical relationship. Even those of us now present at RT last year and weren’t fortunate enough to receive one of your after-party orgy invites.

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  • M
    January 4
    7:53 pm

    And that should be “not,” not “now.” Damn typo demons.

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    7:55 pm

    Kayleigh, except for the bit from Selena where she took exception to people playing thought-police, none of the comments is attributed to anyone.

    Therefore, how specific they are is debatable. A true “Quote” is attributed.

    Personally, I am always VERY clear about who said something when I quote a person, page or publication. I write sports under my real name, and I never want to hear that I’ve misquoted someone. Perhaps I am being overly-pushy in applying my standard. I’ll accept that characterization.

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    8:00 pm

    M:

    I wish there had been after party orgies. It would be great source material.

    The most illicit thing that happened to me at RT was having a women stick her camera under my kilt from behind and taking a picture while her friend was distracting me. I became aware of this when I heard the camera click. Much feminine laughter ensued.

    I find the double standard interesting. How is that funny? It wouldn’t be funny if I was wielding the camera and shooting up a woman’s skirt…

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  • Kayleigh Jamison
    January 4
    8:05 pm

    Kayleigh, except for the bit from Selena where she took exception to people playing thought-police, none of the comments is attributed to anyone.

    Ah, you’re right. I thought they had been. S’what I get for quick reading, eh?

    I stand corrected.

    Though I do still maintain that I don’t think Karen or her readers are necessarily making a blanket statement about all Literotica writers here.

    Karen, like Mrs. Giggles, says what’s on her mind and doesn’t pull any punches. She calls it like she sees it, but I find her to be objective, unless someone gives her a reason to have a personal stake in things.

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    8:16 pm

    I don’t mind Karen speaking her mind. It’s her blog. I do mind any possibility that I might get paint splashed on me by the pedophile brush. I just had to speak out on that front. It’s too scary. I have kids. I’m divorced and coach Little League. My ex-wife knows my pen name. The math is easy to do about how that could get misused to harm me.

    Oh, and I guess when I’ve always been happy to say that I started at Lit, I didn’t like the way the headline sounded like ALL Phaze authors were freaking out about it.

    Lit is a very diverse place.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    8:28 pm

    I didn’t like the way the headline sounded like ALL Phaze authors were freaking out about it.

    Well, to be fair, six looong comments from you seems to indicate that you are freaking out about it, otherwise you would have stopped reloading on my site by now.

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    8:46 pm

    Karen, I never even read Giggles post. I did hear about it from other Phaze authors, mostly with puzzled amusement. I got alerted because you used my name in your post. And Gmail is sending me notifications of new comments, so that’s how I am reloading your page.

    I think I have already made myself clear about what’s freaking me out. It’s a topic where public opinion convicts you instantly. I can’t afford any misconceptions. I’m not saying you called me such. But we all know how this works. It goes thru ten hands and discussions and suddenly I’m a horrible person because you said so. When I’m not and you never said that.

    I’m very concerned that my name is never in a negative conversation (positive ones are ok) that starts with, “You know what they say about him…”
    Example: I apparently was in several after-party orgies at RT. Memories I sadly lost in a drunken blackout, I suppose… *shrug*

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    9:02 pm

    But we all know how this works. It goes thru ten hands and discussions and suddenly I’m a horrible person because you said so. When I’m not and you never said that.

    And knowing how this works, you must realise that human beings being the cynical bastards we are, will probably wonder at your vehemence, when your name was only mentioned the once in a long-assed post. And even that was with several others.

    No, I think you’re here just to wag your fingers, because quite honestly, there’s nothing in the above post that makes you out to be a kiddie-fiddling rapist.

    Just suck it up, and move on, because the more you post, the less convinced I’ll be.

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  • sallahdog
    January 4
    9:21 pm

    yanno Karen, I can see Wills point. The thing is, YOU didn’t call him a pedophile or pervert, but several people who went to the Lit site began the whole “OMG!That place is just full of pedophiles and perverts.” Making it out that the ONLY stuff written and posted on the website (or prevelance of it, I believe one of the posters(heather) said.

    Now a lot of people are never going to go the Lit site to find out that incest is not the most popular category. They are simply going to take posters words for it that its a place that is only the truly sick would write for.(for the record, I am obviously NOT a writer, just a reader who has been known to peruse the stories from time to time.)

    You all know how this shit works. It really is the internet version of the telephone game (which I find endlessly amusing, but I admit, I have a problem there).

    So I get why Will is a little peeved to be named in this conversation, because someone is going to look for just a few at the link posted and then say,” I bet that Willy boy writes some sick stuff…” which isn’t fair. But rarely on the net are things fair.

    I will just say for the record that I don’t care and support anyones right to write spank me, incest, rape, etc fics that they want. Because even if I am not into all of it (or most of it) its a slippery slope and believe me, the inspirational and sweet fiction writers look just as askance at tame erotica and think its “sick”. I don’t want anyone telling me what is “hot” and what is not okay (and by that mean, you sick person, I bet you molest your children, beat your spouse and fuck ducks on the side.)

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  • Will Belegon
    January 4
    9:39 pm

    Just suck it up, and move on, because the more you post, the less convinced I’ll be.

    I don’t think I ever had a chance to convince you of anything. I would say that you had your mind up long before any discussion started. I’d say that’s true of me, too.

    I think vehemence is a bit strong. I’d call it persistence. Except for one incidence of name-dropping Rove and Springer, I’ve been pretty calm but firm. “Vehemence”gives me images of yelling and spitting. That is just not the case.

    …and if I could get past my writer’s block and let the words flow elsewhere, I wouldn’t be posting right now. Believe that, if nothing else.

    Thanks for being thought-provoking, Karen. It’s what a commentator is supposed to be. And thanks to those who saw both sides. It’s greatly appreciated.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 4
    10:28 pm

    I’m sorry. My brain stopped functioning after reading this line.

    Sex for the first time for a little girl has to be painful, but emotionally rewarding at the same time. I hope you will explore this! I know I would love to read it.”

    I totally lack diplomacy at this. You’re sick. Plain and simple. Freedom of speech be damned, people who fantasize about sex with young children, little girls OR little boys, deserve to rot in the lowest level of hell.

    And this idea isn’t even something I could call porn. An idea along those lines isn’t porn… it’s slimy evil.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    10:34 pm

    yanno Karen, I can see Wills point. The thing is, YOU didn’t call him a pedophile or pervert, but several people who went to the Lit site began the whole “OMG!That place is just full of pedophiles and perverts.”

    Well, I don’t think those posters were necessarily wrong SD, but as far as I can tell, nobody mentioned Will Belegon, it’s not like his is the only name on my post. And to be fair, if he’s happy enough to write at Literotica, then he should know that some people will form opinions based on this and this alone. It’s not like he doesn’t know how judgmental people can be.

    And I still maintain that the ‘dude, that’s sick’ comments were about those particular posters, not every author at Literotica.

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  • heather (errantdreams)
    January 4
    10:36 pm

    Making it out that the ONLY stuff written and posted on the website (or prevelance of it, I believe one of the posters(heather) said.

    And when I was reading the site, it was quite prevalent—but that was a handful of years ago, and things might have changed. I got sick of trying to read something in a totally different category and finding out that it just happened to also contain incest in addition to whatever other topic it fit. Perhaps that isn’t tolerated now, and if so that’s awesome and perhaps I’ll find my way back to read some more—because I did find some great stuff there—but it certainly was a problem at one time, and that definitely left an impression.

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  • Sara Reinke
    January 4
    10:53 pm

    Shiloh, you took the words right out of my mouth. They were so appropriate, I’m going to post them again:

    “You’re sick. Plain and simple. Freedom of speech be damned, people who fantasize about sex with young children, little girls OR little boys, deserve to rot in the lowest level of hell.

    And this idea isn’t even something I could call porn. An idea along those lines isn’t porn… it’s slimy evil.”

    As an author, parent and human being, I am absolutely appalled and horrified and saddened that there are people out there with this sort of sick, twisted and incomprehensible mentality. There’s a difference between fantasy and reality, true, but there’s also a difference between fantasy and being disturbed. Finding sexual arousal through children crosses that line. PERIOD. While there may be no crime in thinking sick shit like this, there sure as hell should be.

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  • Selena Kitt
    January 4
    11:05 pm

    Snark much?

    BTW, incest IS the most popular category on Literotica. By far.

    And there are incest stories on that site that are far better than most of the formulaic, derivative fiction printed by any e-publisher out there.

    All for free.

    You want to talk about a slippery slope? This gang-bang hissy fit frenzy I’m looking at is a big one. Welcome to Big Brother 2008.

    Just wait until the evangelicals catch on to what’s going on in romance circles nowadays. Oh the horror, the horror!

    Fiction is fiction.

    F-I-C-T-I-O-N

    Thinking is not nor has it ever been a crime.

    Yet.

    Keep going, though. And it may be.

    Wanna live in that world?

    I don’t.

    Good luck getting a publishing contract for your little erotic romance, then. Slippery slope indeed.

    BTW, Karen, the best thing I can say for you and your post is good for you for standing by it and leaving it up. Mrs. G took her bat and ball and went home.

    I know I’d much rather have my name tied to an incest story than this piggy-back gossipfest. This blog post is by far more of a waste of space in the vast scope of the Internet than any of the worse incest fiction on Lit.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 4
    11:24 pm

    I know I’d much rather have my name tied to an incest story than this piggy-back gossipfest. This blog post is by far more of a waste of space in the vast scope of the Internet than any of the worse incest fiction on Lit

    You know Selena, you’ll forgive me if I’m not surprised by that.

    Oooh, does that make you the second Phaze author to deign to come over here to wave their shitty stick?

    Well, Selly dear, if you think I’m going to let you post as many times on this blog as your friend Will did, you are very much mistaken.

    If you have anything to say, I suggest you get your own blog, or go and commiserate with your pals, because contrary to popular opinion, this blog isn’t democratic.

    And just in case you don’t understand, that means that if you post again, I will delete your comment. You can pass that on to your fellow authors too. I guess that’s just the control freak in me.

    And by the way, yes, I crave to live in a world where grown men thinking about fucking underage girls, is illegal. I’ll take that slippery slope any day of the damned fucking week. Ok?

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  • Anne
    January 4
    11:27 pm

    Oh for the love of Pete. I think you’re going to have another 100+ post here, Karen. :-D Smooches!

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  • Michelle
    January 4
    11:59 pm

    I think there needs to be a mandatory conference for writers or wannabee writers: Bad publicity is not better than no publicity and how not to throw a public tantrum and 10 things not to do if you want to have a career.

    Will you have come across pompous, arrogant and even foolish. How hard would it have been to simply post something like ” just wanted to chime in that I have been a writer at the site, and I personally hate incest-don’t lump us all together” See quick, short and to the point.

    Anyway I am sick of people using public freedom and fantasy is not reality to try to justify abusing children. Sorry getting sexually excited by violence or abuse towards a child is simply pathologically sick and twisted.

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  • rgraham666
    January 5
    12:12 am

    Snicker. A most amusing blog post. The comments rate a giggle or two as well.

    First, taking one post on a forum with millions of posts and citing it as typical of the site and the people on it can’t be described as anything but comedic.

    Then, when people object to being lumped in with the obvious sick person their are smacked with the pedophile tag. This pushes the boundaries of comedy even further.

    I’ve recalling a little saying of Jerry Pournelle’s. “There is a word for people who mistake a character’s actions and motivations for the author’s. That word is ‘idiot'”

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    12:19 am

    But Karen, you yourself admitted you hadn’t seen the post or the comments. From what I saw it wasn’t nearly the wank-fest people seem to think it was, and I really only saw one or two Phaze authors there.

    But I’m a little confused. I haven’t been reading your blog for very long, so I don’t know why you don’t like Phaze so much. I haven’t heard anything bad about them. Not much else, either.

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  • sallahdog
    January 5
    12:44 am

    uhh guys… on literotica (now there are other sites that aren’t so diligent) there is NO underage sex, no matter what the flavor..

    I will have to wait for the kiddies to go to bed, but usually on any given day, if you click on new stories you will find that lately the vast majority are erotic couplings(more the kind of stuff explored in ebook erotica) or BDSM(which has become huge,not my thing, but thats ok)… btw, the prevelent daddy/daughter fantasy seems to be daughter being the aggressor in the sexxing, which proves that its a FANTASY.. LOL… (hey, sue me, I did some research before the kids got home from school.)

    Lets just take this for example, being the devils advocate that I am.. Butt sex is a staple in a lot of erotica lately (even by some of the tsking authors)… Now, I don’t think your going to get many of the inspirational or RWA old line authors who think that is pretty sick and think people “shouldn’t write or read stories like that”.

    Don’t like perverted stories (no matter what the flavor) no problems, don’t read them. No one forces the issue. But I will defend your right to write a buttsex book as well as somebody else to write an incest story or a bondage and torture story, or whatever other story floats your boat. It may not be my thing, but then a lot of stuff isn’t..

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  • M
    January 5
    12:44 am

    BTW, incest IS the most popular category on Literotica. By far.

    And there are incest stories on that site that are far better than most of the formulaic, derivative fiction printed by any e-publisher out there.

    When you say, better, well, I have to sit back and consider the source.

    I’m glad you’re happy where you are. You and all the other Phaze cult groupies can sit back and write about fathers raping daughters, teenagers shagging pigs, and whatever else gets you off.

    Me, I’ll stick with my “formulaic, derivative” fiction that doesn’t involve the sexual fantasies of psychologically deranged individuals.

    And you can bet your ass I’ll never buy a Phaze book again.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    1:50 am

    *sniggering* Yeah, Will…no orgies? That’s not what I heard in the bar at RT. You should really lower your voice when you’re talking in small groups, BTW. I don’t think you know how far it actually carries.

    You must have been really drunk to not remember, cuz I’ve seen much more revealing pics of you than an up-kilt. And the biz card of yours is so popular ONLY because everybody likes laughing at your high-waisted stone-washed denim pants with the tucked-in t-shirt.

    This blog post is great, Karen. I don’t bother reading erotica anymore, mostly because as it gets more prevalent…it gets more crap-tacular. LOL blog posts like this one remind me why I don’t read it much anymore…

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  • Will Belegon
    January 5
    1:51 am

    When you say, better, well, I have to sit back and consider the source.

    I’m glad you’re happy where you are. You and all the other Phaze cult groupies can sit back and write about fathers raping daughters, teenagers shagging pigs, and whatever else gets you off.

    Me, I’ll stick with my “formulaic, derivative” fiction that doesn’t involve the sexual fantasies of psychologically deranged individuals.

    And you can bet your ass I’ll never buy a Phaze book again.

    *SIGH*

    THAT comment is exactly the kind of thing I was concerned about.

    Oh, but I forgot. I’m pompous and therefore my worries are completely unfounded.

    Mob rules.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    2:01 am

    Well, it seems you can thank your buddies for that one. Combativeness tends to beget combativeness, eh?

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  • Michelle
    January 5
    2:16 am

    No the mob doesn’t rule. Actions have consequences. One should seriously consider the consequences before taking action. Maybe you should have considered the consequences before posting on the blog with guns blazing. But no how much more fun to cry victim when called to account for your actions. How much more thrilling to point fingers than take responsibility for your own actions.

    I don’t care if you believe me or not, but I don’t know you from Adam or vice versa. I am a romance reader. I am just now getting into ebooks. I had known nothing about Phaze, but after the behaviour I have seen here I am not really interested. No I don’t think all Phaze authors are pedophiles or write incest. What I have seen is unprofessional behaviour, whining and rocks thrown in glass houses. Now before you reply well Karen started it-Karen writes a blog-she is not an author, she is not trying to get me to part with money to buy her book.

    So I really wish authors would stop with the public wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is not pretty, it is not becoming but it is embarassing, and so damn counterproductive. As a logical being I am offended when people act in a way so counter to their own best interests. So please just stop digging your hole deeper and bow out while you may still have a shred of dignity left. For Selena honey-too late for you-while trying to be witty you just fell flat.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    2:39 am

    If you can’t write, you snark. I’m sick of Mrs. Giggles and Karen Scott and all of the drama they like to create and then blame on the authors they attack. Now you’re turning on one of the few publishers in this whole silly erotica romance genre who have actually done something good for the world by publishing something for charity? You’re pathetic. You know what I think should be illegal? I think it should be illegal for fat cows to write waste of space blogs that have nothing to add to the blogosphere but more rehashed and regurgitated gossip. Britney Spears has nothing on you, Karen Scott. Except a smaller ass. Perhaps you should get off yours. That goes for all your waste of space readers as well.

    What’s the matter, Karen? Can’t take the snark? Get out of the business. Oh, wait. That’s right. You’re not in it.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    2:47 am

    Now you’re turning on one of the few publishers in this whole silly erotica romance genre who have actually done something good for the world by publishing something for charity?

    Now that’s an outright lie. Lots of other publishers have charity anthos, and even better they’re not headed by a woman who’s got her head so far up her own snatch she can’t see anything else.

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  • Phaze sucks Ass
    January 5
    2:55 am

    ‘If you can’t write, you snark. I’m sick of Mrs. Giggles and Karen Scott and all of the drama they like to create and then blame on the authors they attack.’

    Dear Lord, the trolling authors from Phaze are out in full force!

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    3:33 am

    I think the saddest part of this whole thing is that both sides have valid points, but very few people are willing to admit it. I think also that many people are so in such a rush to judge that they misinterpret what people are trying to say. Instead they turn what could be an intelligent conversation topic into an insult fest. The worst part of this whole thing is that people feel the necessity to attack a person’s personal life simply because they don’t agree with them. I thought we were adults here?

    I took the time to go over the thread in question. If anyone actually took the time to go and read through it they’d see that this has been a hotly debated topic for several days now. The author of this blog obviously has some kind of vendetta against certain people on this site. Think about how easily she picked out the specific thread and quote. Out of all the numerous threads on the site she picked that one. She knew it would strike a nerve and so it has. You people are so quick to judge each other that you completely miss the obvious. Now you’ve villainized and labeled a group of people, many of which have nothing to do with the thread or even the site. Do you really believe that every single author for Phaze feels the same way?

    Wake up people.

    And no, I’m not taking sides. There’s an equal amount of garbage coming from both sides.

    Feel free to flame me all you like, that is what you guys seem to do best after all.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 5
    3:39 am

    If you can’t write, you snark.

    I can write. Whether anybody would say I can write decently is a matter of opinion, but I can write.

    Just wondering what that makes my opinion? Snark?

    No. It’s my opinion, and I’m entitled. Just like Karen, just like Mrs. G, just like all the anon commenters, the phaze authors.

    Snark’s an opinion, it’s a form of expression…. just like writing. How many of the commenters would screech if they were told how they should write and how they shouldn’t? You can’t defend your right to write whatever you want and then try to tell somebody else they aren’t entitled to react however they wish to your writing. You can’t defend your right to write F-I-C-T-I-O-N and then freak when somebody takes an exception to what you write.

    It’s called hypocrisy.

    More, anybody that writes anything controversial needs to be prepared to deal with the flack that will come… AND handle it professionally, if they want to be taken seriously by anybody other than themselves.

    Controversial stuff will always catch flack. That’s how it is. How it’s always been. And God help me, I don’t want to live in a world where ‘incest’ ‘romantic fictional incest’ ISN’T considered controversial. For every ‘fictional’ fantasy, there are a hundred victims who could tell you their story and I’d dare any of you to try and defend your stand in that face of their pain.

    Bottom line, the authors jumping into melees like this can’t expect anything beyond what they get.

    That said, …I can’t speak for everybody, but it seems to me that most of the people are more thrown by some of the “little girl’s first time” nastiness more than anything.

    Face facts… most incest situations aren’t some “sweet seductive fantasy”. They are brutal attacks that destroy innocence.

    If you’ve EVER dealt with an incest victim, worked with them, been friends with one, then you might realize why so many have that knee-jerk, instinctive horror that most people are displaying.

    I’ve worked with my share and I can tell you stories that would sicken damn near anybody. Have that in your head and then hear somebody try to defend the ‘idea’ of romantic incest.

    Personal opinions and beliefs aside… every single Phaze author that jumps in here to defend either themselves or their publishing company is only fanning the flames.

    If you can’t do it rationally, without emotion and without getting defensive, without attacking or insulting, the only thing you do is more damage.

    If you came to damage control, turning around and attacking readers and bloggers isn’t the way to do it.

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  • cumhitherglobal_admin
    January 5
    3:58 am

    Fantasies may be fantasies, and limited threads may be limited threads, but I can’t see being associated with any site where some member expresses any sentiment even remotely supportive of the idea that a sexually abused child’s experience can be rewarding. Just my view.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 5
    4:00 am

    Fantasies may be fantasies, and limited threads may be limited threads, but I can’t see being associated with any site where some member expresses any sentiment even remotely supportive of the idea that a sexually abused child’s experience can be rewarding. Just my view.

    Amen

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    4:35 am

    I am a litzen and damn proud of it..
    I don’t want to sling mud, I just want to give an opinion here…
    Every site has its good and it’s bad points, you all have seen fit to throw up only the bad. Lit is not all incest. There are many other threads on a broad spectrum of topics.
    Did any of you actually know that there is a whole thread on supporting people who have been abused? I was an abused child. My father was the abuser, I regularly post on that thread. I have found many threads to be very supportive, some informative. Maybe you should go read some of the other threads rather than the ones you have been purposely sent to to inflame you.
    I still hold true to the thought that just because someone thinks it does not make it so.
    Answer me this, why aren’t you all up in arms about some of the truly sick crime novels out there? Are the people that write them seriously psychopathic serial killers? I think not and obviously no one else does either.
    Personally I would rather people be reading these stories then going out there and acting out said fantasies.
    I don’t read incest stories and I certainly don’t write them. i do however respect every authors right to free speech and free expression.
    Writing it does not make it so. You all act as if these people are raping their children. How would you know. You are casting aspersions without even knowing these people. Just what your narrow minded prejudices are raking up…
    Oh and just so you know my Lit pen name is sxcascinn. I am not ashamed to let you all know it. I am just to lazy to sign up to a sight that seemingly flames everyone regardless of the merit of it.
    Kudos to those who see through the bs on this thread.

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  • eggs
    January 5
    5:12 am

    Time and again I read in the comments here that Karen can’t possibly know what she’s talking about in relation to publishing because she’s not (heraldic chorus) An Author (/heraldic chorus). I’d be interested to know how many individual readers each of these Phaze authors has compared to how many individual readers Karen has. I bet she’s got a larger readership than any of them.

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  • Kayleigh Jamison
    January 5
    5:25 am

    Time and again I read in the comments here that Karen can’t possibly know what she’s talking about in relation to publishing because she’s not (heraldic chorus) An Author (/heraldic chorus). I’d be interested to know how many individual readers each of these Phaze authors has compared to how many individual readers Karen has. I bet she’s got a larger readership than any of them.

    You know what, that’s a damn good point. It’s pretty ridiculous for an author, whose success or failure rests upon the opinion of readers, to discredit a reader.

    Disagree with her, sure.

    Get pissed off by what she says, possibly.

    But reader/reviewer blogs such as this one, the Smart Bitches, Mrs. Giggles, etc. are decent gauges of readership opinions, and more often than not, tend to be right about their predictions.

    After all, without readers, we’re just a bunch of writers with full hard drives and empty pockets.

    I understand the desire to defend oneself, and I’m not saying an author shouldn’t. And I certainly understand the urge to sling mud when you feel it’s been slung at you. But it doesn’t gain you many fans, or readers.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 5
    5:28 am

    Answer me this, why aren’t you all up in arms about some of the truly sick crime novels out there? Are the people that write them seriously psychopathic serial killers?

    Anon, most of those truly sick crime novels deal with the warped bad guy getting their just dues at the end of the book.

    Pretty much every sort of genre fiction that deals with the good guy/bad guy fight has to do with the good guy winning over the bad guy.

    The ultimate battle of good vs. evil, no matter how what twist the author decides to give it. The readers are reading the books for the most part and cheering for the cop/detective/psychic/soccer mom… WHOEVER… that’s out for justice. Not for the sick psycho.

    That right there is probably the answer to your question.

    It doesn’t matter what anybody says regarding the right to write any sort of fiction they choose… when it comes to things dealing with incest, the majority of people are going to have the reaction you’re seeing here.

    And we’re entitled… just as you’re entitled to not have that reaction.

    This whole thread, those jumping on Karen are defending their right to read, feel, think, fantasize about however/whoever/whatever they want.

    You’re absolutely right. You can think/feel/like/fantasize whatever you want to.

    However… you can’t expect others to agree or even respect something that they find totally abhorrent.

    You can’t cry foul when people freak over controversial topics and talk freedom of expression… and THEN turn around and not admit other people are perfectly entitled to not like those controversial topics.

    Obviously the site, whatever is on it, is going to appeal to some people ~ not all. That’s the way it goes with ALL sites. I’ve met plenty of people who cringe when they hear I write erotic romance. I’m not going to get up in arms over it… they are entitled to their opinion.

    I have to say one last thing, and then I’m going to bed, hopefully I can forget I ever read some of the bits and pieces posted here.

    I don’t care if it was some guy’s fantasies, something he may never act on… I EVER find out somebody is having thoughts like the “little girl’s firs time” crap about MY babies… I’ll kill him. I don’t care who it is. I don’t care about the person’s history, their personal traumas, nothing. I would happily spend the rest of my life in prison.

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  • sallahdog
    January 5
    5:33 am

    karen says :it’s not like his is the only name on my post. And to be fair, if he’s happy enough to write at Literotica, then he should know that some people will form opinions based on this and this alone. It’s not like he doesn’t know how judgmental people can be.

    Well now… Karen… if we are going to be tarred with the brush of the company we keep that means if I read this blog, I am just a shit stirrer by association… uhhh…. well…hummm… never mind..

    shiloh responded to…Fantasies may be fantasies, and limited threads may be limited threads, but I can’t see being associated with any site where some member expresses any sentiment even remotely supportive of the idea that a sexually abused child’s experience can be rewarding. Just my view.

    Amen

    Not to pick on anyone in particular(I admit it, I am just browsing through the posts now because they have gone from amusing to batshit stupid)

    but thats kind of a silly way to look at it. Hell on this blog, and others like Dear Author, people have said some pretty stupid crap that I certainly don’t agree with. Does that mean that EVERYONE who reads or posts on this or another blog is responsible for one particular poster who seems a bit…hmmm…how to say this, batshit nuts?

    I don’t hang on the literotica forums, I don’t post there.Hell, I can’t be bothered to post consistently anywhere. But I don’t judge a whole website by a few of the moldier fruits hanging around.

    I truly get the outrage over real life rape or incest, I truly do.

    My last post on this topic.. truly… its been fun…

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    7:33 am

    How did the original `debate` on Mrs. Giggles’ blog (which I saw briefly before it got deleted and, from what I saw, had to do with her misunderstanding the content of a poetry anthology, and a mildly snarky reference to writers on Literotica) become another mudslinging wankfest about a subject that’s almost too inflamatory to voice an opinion about at all?

    I’ll admit, I’ve never looked at Literotica, so I can’t comment about what is or isn’t popular there, but judging from this thread I’m not in any hurry to go there and look. Not necessarily for any judgmental reason, it doesn’t sound as though they offer anything I’d be interested in reading is all.

    Some things are inexcusably abhorrent, and causing any real-life harm to others, especially the vulnerable, is one of those. Fictional `harm`, set in the context of a story of consenting adults, though? I’m not even going to try getting into that.

    I am very concerned, however, by some of the implications-by-association that threads like this can make, and this is one of the things that might have bothered the writers, I think. While I’m aware there are e-publishers who’ve appeared lately that allow controversial themes like incest, Phaze is NOT one of them–their submissions page clearly states this isn’t something they want to see (and neither is underage fiction, rape portrayed in a positive light, etc., the same no-no’s as most other e-pubs). I fail to see how that aspect of the discussion has any relevance to the original issue.

    Regardless of what writers who have work published by Phaze might have written in the past (and I can’t see anywhere that attributes any of the quotes to any of them), I think it’s important to make that distinction because of some of the implications in this thread. It does have “Phaze Authors” in the title after all; if someone read that and the last few posts they could easily make the wrong connection. In particular, comments like “You and all the other Phaze cult groupies can sit back and write about fathers raping daughters, teenagers shagging pigs, and whatever else gets you off.” very clearly attempts to associate the publisher with such themes when this is completely inaccurate (and potentially defamatory) and might suggest to the unaware reader that Phaze publishes this kind of stuff when it most certainly doesn’t.

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  • kis
    January 5
    8:27 am

    I don’t think it was so unreasonable for Will to get peeved over being mentioned in this post–especially if he has nothing to do with the incest side of literotica, and especially if he’s a divorced father. If I was a literotica author, I wouldn’t want my name within a hundred miles of a post that provided links only to the most perverted and objectionable threads at lit. and none to the more tame ones.

    I wouldn’t even say he charged in with guns blazing. He took umbrage. That’s understandable. But like in most cases, when people refuse see your point and you kinda have no choice but to beat a horse that was dead three weeks before you even strapped it to the cart, everyone starts to crow “methinks thou doest protest too much.”

    Well, I got the point, Will. And I for one am sorry your name got dragged into this shitstorm. I think it’s ridiculous on a thread containing comments like: You and all the other Phaze cult groupies can sit back and write about fathers raping daughters, teenagers shagging pigs, and whatever else gets you off. that anyone would accuse you of being too defensive.

    One of the reasons I like this blog is the varied opinions I find here. Things do get nasty, but that’s the nature of debate, especially on topics as sensitive as this. I just think it’s stupid to paint all lit or phaze authors with the incest brush, and then to claim the more they deny it the more guilty they must be.

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  • Mrs Giggles
    January 5
    8:46 am

    Mrs. Giggles’ blog (which I saw briefly before it got deleted and, from what I saw, had to do with her misunderstanding the content of a poetry anthology, and a mildly snarky reference to writers on Literotica)

    Correction. All I said about Literotica was: “Is it just me or many of the authors from Phaze are from Literotica?” That is all. ONE SENTENCE. It’s just an observation of mine.

    I have no idea how this one sentence catapaults me into the Lit-crowd’s attention. I deleted the whole thing because it’s pointless.

    Me: I didn’t mean anything about it!

    Them: Yes you are.

    Me: I was just making fun of the title “Phaze In Verse” as one where the poems inside are about Phaze. A joke, you see?

    Them: Don’t lie. We know you deliberately attacked us and WE ARE HURT.

    Don’t believe me? Right now they are still making rounds around the blogs claiming that I deliberately set out to attack them, et cetera after I said three times that I am just making fun of small and inconsequential things.

    I deleted the two things hoping that the nonsense will just die down but now I see that maybe I shouldn’t have, as my alleged snarkiness snowball with each retelling of those people until you’d think I’ve personally shot all their cats and dogs with a gun.

    One of these days I will no doubt laugh over how those people can take one – ONE! – sentence in an inconsequential blog entry and turn it into a saga of personal attack against Literotica. One day.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 5
    10:38 am

    But I’m a little confused. I haven’t been reading your blog for very long, so I don’t know why you don’t like Phaze so much. I haven’t heard anything bad about them. Not much else, either.

    Like you said, you haven’t been reading my blog for long, because if you had, you’d know that I’m an equal opportunity blogger when it comes to reporting e-pubbed authors behaving badly. Or at least my perception of badly. This isn’t a personal thing about Phaze, because if it had been, then they’d have appeared on this blog a lot sooner, but as it happens, they sailed pretty much under my radar.

    First, taking one post on a forum with millions of posts and citing it as typical of the site and the people on it can’t be described as anything but comedic.

    Oh? Can you please show me exactly where I said they were typical of the site?

    I think it should be illegal for fat cows to write waste of space blogs that have nothing to add to the blogosphere but more rehashed and regurgitated gossip. Britney Spears has nothing on you, Karen Scott. Except a smaller ass.

    Smooches to you for loving my blog so much and coming back time and time again. :)

    What’s the matter, Karen? Can’t take the snark? Get out of the business. Oh, wait. That’s right. You’re not in it.

    I love you Anons, you truly make my day. And so observant too. Love ya!

    You know what the funny thing is here? At the bottom of my post, I stated that I didn’t see how knowing that the Phaze authors having been involved with Literotica would make any difference to the readers. I still stick by that. It’s the asshattery that will get to the readers more than anything else.

    The more people come over here and throw insults at me, the worse Phaze authors look. It wont affect me, because I’ve been here before. Many times. And no doubt it wont be the last time this year.

    The excerpts in theoriginal post were taken from the forums at Literotica, these aren’t stories, these were quotes by real people.

    I was appalled by what I read, and I said so. This really isn’t a new thing for me. Wanna defend a grown man’s right to fantasize about fucking little girls? You may do so, but seriously, don’t do it on here. I have no interest in hearing ‘both sides’ when it comes to such matters. I’m very black and white on stuff like incest, especially those involving underage children. In short, you are fighting a losing battle, so take it somewhere else.

    As for the name association thing, I’m pretty sure if neither Will, nor Selena Kitten had posted on here, that nobody would have associated them with underage incest and rape (seeing as the majority of my readership had probably never heard of them), based on my post, but the fact is, theirs and the other Phaze anons who came here helped fuel the fire. Isn’t it funny how that always happens?

    Anyway, bottom line, you guys did exactly what I expected you to do, very cynical I know, but it still happens every time.

    Look on the bright side, at least those people who have never heard of Phaze know who you are now, right? Hey, some of you guys might even double your current book sales, now how neat is that? :)

    By the way Selena, consider your last post deleted.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    12:07 pm

    And knowing how this works, you must realise that human beings being the cynical bastards we are, will probably wonder at your vehemence…

    I know I was… I will just say this, sometimes protesting too loudly makes you look guilty.

    As for the lit thing, I’ve never heard of it thank goodness. I know I couldnt read the excerpts posted because they made me sick.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    12:13 pm

    I don’t care if it was some guy’s fantasies, something he may never act on… I EVER find out somebody is having thoughts like the “little girl’s firs time” crap about MY babies… I’ll kill him. I don’t care who it is. I don’t care about the person’s history, their personal traumas, nothing. I would happily spend the rest of my life in prison.
    *appaulds*
    I am not advocating killing anyone but…As parents it is our responsibility to protect our children and I’m with Shiloh, I can guarentee I would kill to protect mine.

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  • Nora Roberts
    January 5
    1:02 pm

    Don’t know and don’t care about the site or the publisher under discussion.

    I did want to address some of the comments on fantasies and writing when it comes to using children sexually.

    Thoughts are one thing–they may be morally abhorrant, but they’re thoughts and unless we can read minds most of us would be unaware of another’s thoughts.

    But writing thoughts down is a powerful thing. Writing thoughts down and publishing them in an area for others to read is a thing of power and pride.

    Writing is a form of expression for the writer and a form of experience for both writer and reader.

    I’ll accept the handle of ‘old guard’ or whatever else gets tossed my way for saying, without qualification, that using children sexually in writing–except to illustrate the horror of it, the evil of it–is hideous.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    1:58 pm

    I gotta agree with Karen.

    When the names were just listed, they didn’t really register.

    But when I saw the name (Will & Selena) more than once, I started to remember them and make associations.

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  • Bonnie Dee
    January 5
    4:55 pm

    And you can bet your ass I’ll never buy a Phaze book again.

    In all the long, LONG list of comments here, this jumped out at me the most. I’m not a Phaze author, but I have a friend who is, Jayelle Drewry. Why should a whole publishing company’s stable of authors be tarred with the same brush? Shouldn’t books be chosen on their individual merits–because the content sounds interesting to the reader?
    To lump a publisher’s entire catalog of books or roster of authors together and damn them all is tantamount to book burning.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 5
    4:58 pm

    Hey Nora, long time no see!

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  • Karen Scott
    January 5
    5:05 pm

    I wondered when the tried and true threats of legal action would come. Some authors, and I use the term very loosely, need to go and try to build a credible writing career, instead of hanging round here all day.

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  • Kayleigh Jamison
    January 5
    5:22 pm

    Some authors, and I use the term very loosely, need to go and try to build a credible writing career, instead of hanging round here all day.

    Oh, if only! I’ve got damn writer’s block. But at least your blog has provided hours of entertainment over the last week or so with which to ease my creatively stifled pain. *grin*

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  • Anne
    January 5
    5:31 pm

    Shiloh Walker Said…
    I totally lack diplomacy at this. You’re sick. Plain and simple. Freedom of speech be damned, people who fantasize about sex with young children, little girls OR little boys, deserve to rot in the lowest level of hell.

    And this idea isn’t even something I could call porn. An idea along those lines isn’t porn… it’s slimy evil.

    Shiloh- This is why I love you. :-)

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  • Nonny
    January 5
    6:04 pm

    OK. Will and Selena’s comments in this thread have seemed perfectly polite and reasonable to me considering what has been said by other posters.

    Karen, you brought their names up in your original post and then went on to describe pedophilia and incest in conjunction with Literotica. Combined with the “quotes” that people have posted in comments along with other comments about never buying Phaze books again, etc…. it’s guilt by association.

    Personally, if I were to come across my name in close association with something I found ethically abhorrent, I would certainly speak up instead of letting it stand; because letting it stand without protest can be interpreted as silent agreement.

    I think that if any one of the posters on this thread came across such, they would do much the same.

    Trying to politely clear up something that could be a career-damaging misunderstanding is not bad behavior on the author’s part, at least not in my view.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 5
    6:25 pm

    OK. Will and Selena’s comments in this thread have seemed perfectly polite and reasonable to me considering what has been said by other posters.

    Well, Will was reasonable, I’ll give you that, Selena only actually came over to stir shit, having been egged on by her cronies. She said it herself, she doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with a grown man merely fanatsizing about fucking little girls, so it’s not like she would have been offended by the association (which incidentally, only went as far as to say that she agreed with the original Lit poster, not that she did it herself), and seeing as she has written incest stories herself, I can’t see that she was coming over to disassociate herself from those either, because that would have just been a tad hypocritical.

    Nah, I KNOW she was just here to stir the shit, which normally I wouldn’t mind, but on this occasion, I make a special exception for her.

    I can extend apologies to Will, if only because he has children, and perhaps he was thinking of them.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    8:20 pm

    I just don’t see what this whole storm is about. I’m a new reader on all of these blogs, Mrs. Giggles and Karen’s as well, and I find all of this stuff very interesting. The original issue was

    “Is it just me or many of the authors from Phaze are from Literotica?”

    She did not name names and it’s really such a benign statement. Even the whole cult statement was a so what? for me. If anything, that kind of thing would make me want to check those authors to make an informed opinion for myself.

    After reading Karen’s post and then following the link to Literotica, it was sickening to read posts by people who fantasize about or wrote actual experiences about incest and kiddy sex in a titillating way and not as experience that was painful and damaging. Frankly, it’s really sick to me, and what is scary is that the step from fantasy to actual action is a very small one. I don’t want to read that stuff and I feel that even just putting it out there for anyone to read is feeding those and others’ fantasies even more and maybe even aiding in having those fantasies become more acceptable and normal to those having them.

    That being said, I checked out the whole site of Literotica, and not only because of Karen’s link but because recently just by chance, my sister, who’s been married 25 years, has two grown sons, lives a normal respectable life told me about it. And I don’t consider her a sick perv. She would never be a part of sick crap like that. I checked out their subject headings for stories submitted and the subjects are clearly defined.

    I consider myself a normally intelligent person who can make an informed decision about a site that has hundreds upon hundreds of people writing their stories that are just your basic adult oriented porn or erotica that just also happens to have one section of a huge message board with many subjects on which people can post their sick shit. I don’t agree with allowing that subject to be discussed other than as a victim’s voice, however, I don’t feel that all the authors on that whole site are guilty by association as I don’t feel guilty by association for reading some stories posted on other parts of that site.

    I’m fairly sure that most people can make an informed decision about Phaze and its authors no matter what is said. If I were a Phaze author who never posted on Literotica maybe I would be a bit pissed, but that’s the way it goes. Just post on your blog or website that you were never associated with it. And if you are an author who did post on Literotica and don’t want to be associated with it then change your pen name or buck up and say yeah I posted there but this and this is what I wrote and I absolutely abhor and don’t condone any under age sexual portrayals as Will has done. People are intelligent enough to see past others’ opinions and see for themselves if they want to.

    I read Karen’s post and I didn’t get that she was accusing or even associating those people whose names she posted as being authors who supported sick fucks just because they posted stories on one part of that site. She just stated a fact. All any of this did was make me check things out for myself.

    It seems all much ado about nothing for Phaze and its authors.

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  • KM
    January 5
    8:24 pm

    While I’m aware there are e-publishers who’ve appeared lately that allow controversial themes like incest, Phaze is NOT one of them–their submissions page clearly states this isn’t something they want to see (and neither is underage fiction, rape portrayed in a positive light, etc., the same no-no’s as most other e-pubs). I fail to see how that aspect of the discussion has any relevance to the original issue.

    Perhaps it doesn’t have relevance to the original issue, but I know of at least one book published by Phaze that does portray rape in what I found to be an objectionable context. I’ll even pull a passage for you.

    Edward watched the blush rise to her face, watching as the flush turned her pale skin rosy. With her pale blonde locks and blue eyes, she could have passed for his wife’s twin. He stared at her slender face, the fullness of her curved lips, and the sweet curve of her cheek brushed by the butterfly caress of her thick gold colored lashes. Her ears were tiny shells, their lobes delicate and pretty.

    When had she become so beautiful? When had she grown to be a woman? For she was that, he could see the soft dark valley of cleavage between her breasts, the almost absurdly small waistline that blossomed into rounded hips. Even those soft pink pussy lips that he’d glimpsed for only an instant had been those of a woman, not the little girl he’d thought her still to be.

    “Drop your hands, girl,” he said, waving his hand at her. Edward heard the words come from his mouth, spoken before he’d realized. His daughter, ever obedient no matter how embarrassed she was, slowly uncurled her hands from the material. The gown dropped away from her body, exposing a form that was lovelier even than that of his deceased wife.

    His gaze ran over what he could see with avid interest, even as a part of his soul seemed to wither and die with the sin that he was committing. He knew staring at her was wrong in one of the most moral of ways, but he didn’t stop. It was almost as if he couldn’t stop.

    The alcohol he’d drunk during his sojourn out to his usual gambling haunts had been fogging his head and fumbling his step since he’d been ousted from his last stop, managing to actually win a few hands before belligerence and alcohol laced rage had gotten him evicted. He’d come home with the idea of sleeping off the alcohol and had found his daughter being pawed and abused, almost raped. It sobered him, though he still felt the effects of the spirits, blurring the lines between reality and surrealism.

    With a groan of lust, for Kathleen inspired a deep, fiery need that he’d thought gone when his wife had died, he stepped forward, his hand reaching out to cup one of her breasts, pushing aside the ripped material. His thumb brushed against the soft tip, teasing it until it hardened before he grasped it gently between his thumb and finger, rolling the pebbled peak and squeezing as if he were testing its ripeness.

    Kathleen’s body stiffened in shock, stiffening against his hands. “Nno,” she whispered, backing away from him, pulling her soft flesh from his fingers. “D-don’t touch me.” Edward stepped forward, his eyes riveted on her slender form and that pale pink nipple that almost seemed to wink at him from between the folds of her ripped gown. His last mistress had left him for richer fields, walking away without a glance backward months ago. Whores on the streets cost money that he didn’t have. And Kathleen was here—naked, beautiful and warm.

    “Take off that gown, Kathleen.” His tone was such that brooked no argument. He stepped forward again, watching as she gripped the edges of her gown and pulled it over her, trying to side-step around him and get to the door. “N-no, please, Father,” she begged, her voice reed thin. “You’ve been drinking. Please, Father, don’t make me…”

    Excerpt is from A Gamble Worth Taking by Wendy Stone

    Maybe some don’t see that as objectionable, but it squicked the fuck out of me, and it’s not the only scene of its kind in the book.

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    8:37 pm

    Okay.

    I went through pages of the linked discussion. I’m like that, want to see many opinions and such. Want to judge on my own, giving everyone their say.

    Amicus. Sigh. His outlooks didn’t match mine by any means, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt since he said he was playing the devil’s advocate. Promoting discussion. Then…

    BAMMO

    A post that set all my alarm bells ringing. This father of 5 daughters has been having private internet conversations with one young lady since she was 11. Now the girl is in college, and she is sharing all her experiences at school with him. Dating and sexual included.

    That was my moment. The moment this camel’s back broke. You’d have to read all the posts up until that moment, and understand me as a person, to get why I “just said NO.”

    I am against censorship. But as professional writers, you face the FACT of sometimes being linked with colleagues on the same site. FAIR? Not likely. But it is a decision you have to make, and bear the consequences of. A world you have to live in.

    ISH. I’m off to scrub in the shower for a while.

    Anon76

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  • Anonymous
    January 5
    9:11 pm

    And. One more thing about that one link.

    Whenever some posters start questioning if one or more other posters are undercover cops?

    Ding Ding Ding.

    Anon76

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  • Nora Roberts
    January 5
    11:30 pm

    Karen, pneumonia kicked my ass.

    Crawling back.

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  • Anonymous
    January 6
    2:30 am

    This is an anon who has never responded on this thread before.

    Those who say that it is “only” fantasy do not understand the power of fantasy.

    Anyone here know what Neurolinguistic Programming is? It’s a useful therapeutic tool when used correctly. Part of the therapy involves using fantasy to change current emotional reactions to past events. In other words one repeatedly relives events in fantasy with a change in outcome which allows the subject to feel empowered rather than humiliated. It desensitizes the patient to the event.

    Used wrongly, fantasy can desensitize individuals to the social stigma of abnormal behavior. It can help them overcome qualms put in place by society for good reason. It can lead to an acceptance of aberrant actions as “normal”. Predatory sexual criminals almost without exception begin with a fantasy that they elaborate one then try to match the reality to the fantasy. The more twisted the fantasy the more horrendous the crime.

    (And I ams not saying that every who posted here from the web site or Phaze is a potential sexual criminal. I am saying that fantasy has a potency that many people do not accept or understand.)

    Ms Roberts is right. Writing is powerful. Fantasy is powerful. And I want to stay far, far away from people who deliberately fantasize and encourage others to fantasize about some of the acts described.

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  • Anonymous
    January 6
    3:46 am

    Nora Roberts and Anonymous are actually both very wrong about fantasy. I’m an anonymous poster who has also not posted on this thread or blog before, either. I actually found my way here through another blog. But I can tell you, anonymous, that your biomedical view of fantasy is narrow and unsophisticated at best and proscriptive and dangerously harmful at worst. And I’m someone who actually works with sex offenders in the field. Your logic would make every parent who has ever said or thought, “I’m going to kill that child!” a criminal – or every person who has written down a fantasy about getting revenge on a co-worker, or cheating on their spouse. There is no fantasy which exists that can be “used wrongly.” We can’t choose which fantasies are acceptable and which aren’t. Either they all or, or they all aren’t. Fantasy is never harmful. Never. Manifestation and literalization are harmful, but fantasy never is. Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. An incest fantasy, as has been mentioned here, is a psychological truth about a stage of development. A fantasy is symbolic. It is not literaly. It’s only when that symbol becomes fact, that’s when we have problems.

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  • Anonymous
    January 6
    4:56 am

    This whole thread reminds me of a new mother who phoned a radio show psychologist to ask if she was sick for having a physiological sexual response when breast feeding her baby. The woman had no unnatural urges toward her baby, but her body’s involuntary reaction to the stimulus of suckling had her totally freaked out. This is NOT unheard of, especially with a first child. The psychologist overreacted, took down the woman’s name and number, ostensibly to call her “for further counselling”, reported her to child services and the baby was taken away by the authorities for more than a month while they did an investigation that turned up nothing untoward.

    Yes, fantasies can be powerful, and the sharing of them can lead to a desensitization to acts we should all find abhorrent. But there’s a fine line between normal and abnormal sometimes. We are frequently told that girls “grow up to marry their fathers”. Men often like to be “mothered” by their wives. When the first intimate love relationship modelled for a child is that of his/her parents, all kinds of associations can form that are nobody’s fault, and that very few people would ever act on in any concrete way.

    I do think it can be dangerous indulging someone’s fantasies to the point where incest or pedophilia comes off as okay. But I refuse to believe that every person who has ever had a sexual thought about their mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, babysitter, is a wack-job. And I absolutely will not entertain the notion that everyone who gets off on thinking about such things is destined to go out and do them.

    I think about a lot of things. If you ever find my husband dead from an ice-pick shoved in his ear while he sleeps, or my boss lying in a pool of gore while I polish my machine gun, then you can say “I told you so”. Until then, Christ, let people think what they want.

    That said, it wasn’t the topic of the lit. thread that squicked me out, so much as the encouraging and self-congratulatory tone. It’s one thing to think something, knowing it ain’t right. It’s quite another to indulge in the kind of back-patting that goes on there. Blech.

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  • Ana Anonymous
    January 6
    7:17 am

    But I refuse to believe that every person who has ever had a sexual thought about their mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle, babysitter, is a wack-job.

    See I disagree with this. What normal person would have a sexual thought about their parent or family member?

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  • Anonymous
    January 6
    9:42 am

    I actually read stories from this site and, you’d be surprised to know there are a lot of authors who are now e-pubbed and got their start through Literotica and I’m not just talking about the ones from Phaze. Eve Vaughn, Morgan Hawke, and Mlyn Hurn used to submit stories to the site before they got published. The site is a place a lot of new authors try to test out their material on an audience. There are actually a lot of talented undiscovered writers on the site and I tend to like them more than most of the authors who are published either by e-pubs or print pubs out there now. As for the incest, while it does have that ick factor to it…..ugh never mind it is just ewww and that is all I want to say on that.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 6
    12:47 pm

    The woman had no unnatural urges toward her baby, but her body’s involuntary reaction to the stimulus of suckling had her totally freaked out.

    Check out a show called Extraordinary Breast Feeding, there was a woman on there who was still breast feeding her baby at the age of nine. Not saying that every mother will end up like that, but it does very occasionally happen.

    Your logic would make every parent who has ever said or thought, “I’m going to kill that child!” a criminal

    What a crock of shit, and a crap basis for an argument. You think that a parent in a temper over a naughty child is remotely similar to a parent envisaging having sex with the child? Are you high? Whilst parents have been known to kill their own children in temper, it is far more normal for a parent to lose their rag over a misbehaving child, than wanting to have sex with said child. If you can’t see how abnormal that is, then please keep it to yourself.

    I can be liberal with the best of them, but my judgment stems from how I would feel if it happened to a loved one. And basically, if I knew that somebody was having sexual thoughts about my baby, I’d want them shot. It’s really black and white for me. Fantasies themselves per se may not physically hurt you, but I think we know by now that child molesters rapists etc had to start somewhere. Please people, I am not interested in hearing anybody defending adults who fantasize about fucking children, you have a perfect right to your opinion, but not on here. Go elsewhere and air those views. The very thought of it, makes me want to be quite ill.

    I think about a lot of things. If you ever find my husband dead from an ice-pick shoved in his ear while he sleeps, or my boss lying in a pool of gore while I polish my machine gun, then you can say “I told you so”. Until then, Christ, let people think what they want.

    But people are allowed to think what they want, let’s face it, rapists, murderers, child molesters have been thinking, then doing for long enough. As well as the occasional housewife who’s had enough of her husband so kills him to make her life easier. I never said people couldn’t think what they want, but I don’t want anybody coming on this blog, trying to persuade me that fantasizing about ass fucking a child or penetrating a little girl’s vagina is normal and acceptable.

    Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.

    You want to trot out anymore clumsy soundbites? Guns do kill people. Guns in the hands of the wrong people, kill people. Fantasies in the head of somebody who’s lost all sense of reality are dangerous.

    A young man recently went into a mall and killed an amazing amount of people. He thought, and then he did it. A lot of people wont ever try to live out their fanatasies, but some people always will. Now that’s a fact that you can’t really refute, because we see it happening on a daily basis, with tragic, and horrendous results. Just go and visit a children’s home sometime.

    I actually read stories from this site and, you’d be surprised to know there are a lot of authors who are now e-pubbed and got their start through Literotica and I’m not just talking about the ones from Phaze.

    Everybody totally missed the point. The blog was never about how terrible it is that these authors started at Literotica, personally I couldn’t give a rats arse. The post’s main point, which every single one of the authors missed, was about their overreaction to something as innocuous, as that one line, from Mrs Giggles’ post.

    The point was, why the twisted knickers over somebody publicising the fact that they started life at Literotica? If any of the authors had bothered reading the actual post, instead of jeering each other on to dare to post a ‘telling off’ comment, they may have realised that the steam coming out of their ears was for nought. Not that I was surprised by it in the least. That shit’s a regular occurrence where some e-pubbed authors are concerned.

    If I were the owners of Phaze I’d tell them to belt up, and stop putting the entire company in such a bad light.

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  • Anonymous
    January 6
    6:08 pm

    Check out a show called Extraordinary Breast Feeding, there was a woman on there who was still breast feeding her baby at the age of nine. Not saying that every mother will end up like that, but it does very occasionally happen.

    Actually, the World Health Organization recommends breastfeeding until age four. That squicks out most people in the western world, but it’s pretty common in places where malnutrition is an issue for people. And I never said I thought fantasizing about pedophilia or incest is acceptable. I just know that the human psyche isn’t black and white, and that not everyone who thinks about something actually goes out and does it, or even wants to go out and do it. We gonna start locking people up for their thoughts, now?

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 6
    6:52 pm

    There is no fantasy which exists that can be “used wrongly.”

    Oh, I’d have to disagree.

    Many, many fantasies can be used wrongly. Namely the fantasies of sexual predators. It’s those fantasies that often cause those predators to reoffend. Fantasies that they wouldn’t have if they were ‘normal’.

    By your logic, there’s no difference between me being a frustrated mama and the sicko molestor a few miles away that’s on the sex offender registry. Me, when she’s misbehaving, I feel like pulling my hair out, swatting her butt and sending her to the room for the rest of her life. Thoughts. Just thoughts.

    And he also has thoughts. But he has certain thoughts that are inconceivable to normal people… and YES, they ARE inconceivable. NORMAL people do NOT sexualize children.

    By your logic, him thinking about ‘playing’ with the pretty little girl is no different from me when I mutter “I’m going to wring her neck.” when she’s being a snot.

    Not only is that wrong, it’s insulting to every good parent out there… hell, that’s even insulting to a lot of the BAD parents. I’d rather face a neglectful parent than a sexual predator.

    NORMAL people do NOT have those thoughts. Hell, there’s even scientific facts and studies that prove a sexual predator’s brain differs from the brain of typical average Joe.

    If people want to get scientific on this, fine. We can. I’ve of scads of data I can dig up and I’m sure some will try to dig up data to refute mine.

    But one thing that defines NORMAL is the perception of the general population. And I can guarantee that the vast majority of the population is going to say an adult daydreaming and having sexual thoughts about a child is NOT NORMAL.

    Things have gotten very gray in this day and age, but thank God most people still see some things in black and white… and this is one of them. I don’t want to live in a world where the majority of people don’t see anything wrong with a man thinking about having sex with the six year old next store.

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  • Jackie L.
    January 6
    8:40 pm

    I think fantasies can serve as an outlet for feelings that have been declared taboo by civilization.

    Given a choice between a guy fantasizing about raping his daughter and actually committing the rape, I’d take the fantasy.

    But fantasy can be a slippery slope. When does it become obsession, and then when does acting out the fantasy become irresistible? And how do you know where you are on the mountainside?

    I think that’s why they call encouraging this kind of behavior “pandering.”

    I think anybody writing a story about how a little girl feels special when Daddy rapes her is doing something unforgivable. (And gross, disgusting, EWWW, did I forget to mention EWWW?)

    And Nora, I hope you continue to crawl back from pneumonia. I had it once, sickest I’ve ever been in my life. Get all better soon.

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  • Ana Anonymous
    January 6
    9:11 pm

    NORMAL people do NOT sexualize children. Exactly. It’s not normal. Even among hardened criminals it’s not normal. Do you know what happens to pedophiles in the prison system? So think about it. If career criminals who don’t respect the laws of the land will kill a pedophile in a heart beat, that has to tell you something.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    1:57 am

    I really don’t usually post anonymously, but you’ll understand when you read this.
    When I was little, I was a victim of abuse. Seven, to be precise. The woman my grandfather married after my grandmother died had a son, and he abused me on a visit to my grandparents. My grandfather’s wife found out and she and her son told me that if I told my parents, my father would kill him and then he would spend the rest of his life in prison and I didn’t want that, did I?
    That is the truth of what happens. I never told anybody and oh, 30 years later I discovered the man continued to rape children. He died in prison, but maybe, if I had told someone, I could have helped to save them the same anguish I went through.
    So I felt great, just great about that.
    Anyone who even lays a hand on a child wrong deserves castration.
    These days I write erotic romance for a well-known major publisher, but my heroes and heroines are always old enough to think and look after themselves. And when they say no and mean it, everything stops. I love hot sex, I love erotic romance and a sprinkling of erotica, but the line must be drawn somewhere.
    I’m sorry to write anonymously, but I really don’t want this to follow me around. It happened a long time ago and I’m over it. As much as anyone can ever be.

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  • Ana Anonymous
    January 7
    10:13 am

    Big hugs Anonymous. I’m glad you shared. I know I may be naive but hopefully someone reading who writes incest stories or whatever the hell they call them will realize that there is nothing, nothing sexy about the victimization, imagined or otherwise of a child.

    Unfortunately, castration, chemical or otherwise doesn’t stop the complusion. That’s why I think it should be an automatic death sentence. When it comes to children and their well being there should be no second chances.

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    1:19 pm

    I actually stayed away from this thread all weekend long, because for me weekends are for spending time with my husband and kids.

    Now I come back on a Monday to find the freaks coming out of there rocks to say FANTASIES ABOUT CHILDREN ARE OKAY-JUST CAUSE THERE FANTASIES.

    No there not. That actually makes you a fucking sick freak who needs help. I actually was probably one of the first that posted on this thread, not knowing that Karen’s blog would attract such sick minded individuals. Karen NEVER NAMED NAMES when she said child molester/pervert. No. But sick fuckers like Selena crawl out of the wood work and say yeah it’s okay to be this way. Really. Well you’re someone I WOULD NEVER allow near my 2 kids. You obviously have a problem and need serious help. I only hope one day you realize and are smart enough to get it. Because for those of you who think fantasies about kids are okay, those are the same sick fucks that think it will be okay to act on it later on.

    Also the Excerpt is from A Gamble Worth Taking by Wendy Stone

    THAT IS ONE REASON I WILL NEVER WRITE OR BUY ANYTHING FROM PHAZE.

    Any publisher who CONDONES this writing is a publisher I don’t want to be associated with.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    2:15 pm

    “And I never said I thought fantasizing about pedophilia or incest is acceptable. I just know that the human psyche isn’t black and white, and that not everyone who thinks about something actually goes out and does it, or even wants to go out and do it. We gonna start locking people up for their thoughts, now?”

    Exactly.

    This mob is the type that used to stand at the gallows and cheer. So self-righteous. So sure they know where the line is. Until that line moves. And begins to include them in its ranks of the convicted for just THINKING about something. This is the type of mob that would allow the Nazis to thrive. This is more proof we live in a growing fascist environment. So much for freedom. So much for liberty. It dies this way. With thunderous applause.

    NO ONE here, including Selena (who someone just libelously stated believes that pedophilia is okay – patently not true, if you can actually read) has advocated pedophilia. I went through that thread, too, over at Literotica. It seems to me they’re talking not about children, but teenagers, adolescents, and their sexuality. In some countries, the age of consent is sixteen. When sex between a sixteen year old and twenty eight year old is considered pedophilia, there’s something wrong with your value system. No one here has advocated for abuse or said the actual touching of a young child was okay.

    No one.

    But this mob would like to stand at the gallows and cheer to watch someone hung for championing the freedom of THOUGHT!?

    THAT is not normal. Not at all.

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    2:40 pm

    SELENA SAID “I know I’d much rather have my name tied to an incest story than this piggy-back gossipfest.” TO EVEN SAY SHE WOULD RATHER HAVE HER NAME TIED TO AN INCEST STORY IS PRETTY SICK. DON’T DEFEND HER ANON-SHE DIGS HER OWN GRAVE WITH HER BIG FAT MOUTH. SHE NEEDS NO HELP FROM YOU.

    “This mob is the type that used to But this mob would like to stand at gallows and cheer. So self-righteous. So sure they know where the line is. Until that line moves.” YEAH WELL YOU KNOW WHAT ANON, THE LINE WE’RE TALKING ABOUT HERE IS CHILDREN. AND WHEN THAT LINE FOR ME HAS MOVED, YOU BETTER BELIEVE THAT I WILL KILL TO PROTECT WHAT IS MINE.

    “This is the type of mob that would allow the Nazis to thrive.” REALLY CAUSE IN MY OPINION-THE NAZIS WERE JUST AS SICK IN THEIR TWISTED MINES AS PEDOPHILES ARE.

    “But this mob would like to stand at the gallows and cheer to watch someone hung for championing the freedom of THOUGHT!?” FREEDOM OF THOUGHT-FREEDOM OF SPEECH YES, WE ALL HAVE A RIGHT TO IT, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU CAN CROSS THAT MORALLY RIGHT LINE INTO THINKING THAT HARMING CHILDREN IN ANYWAY (BE IT IMAGINARY OR REALISTIC) IS OKAY. -

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  • Nora Roberts
    January 7
    2:40 pm

    And we have Nazis. We are now complete.

    How do we get from condemning child abuse as a sexual stimulent in writing to cheering at hangings?

    As I live in the US, in the 21st century, I consider 16 years of age a child. I consider a 28 year old an adult. If a 28 year old guy attempted to have a sexual relationship with my 16 year old girl, I’d have him arrested.

    I guess that makes me part of the mob cheering at the gallows. Or a Nazi, or a fascist. Take your choice.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    2:44 pm

    “How do we get from condemning child abuse as a sexual stimulent in writing to cheering at hangings?”

    YEAH, THAT’S WHAT I WANT TO KNOW TOO NORA.

    BUT THEN I WON’T BE SURPRISED IF THAT’S SELENA USING ANOTHER’S COMPUTERS TO DEFEND HER “IDIOTIC” THOUGHTS.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    3:38 pm

    Me again, the person who was abused as a child.
    When the police arrested my abuser (who was also accused of abusing 30 other children, and God knows how many more who didn’t come forward), they intercepted his mail and his email. He bought paedophilic stories, pictures and the rest, was obviously getting off on it, maybe even getting ideas for future attacks. He was a member of several “communities” who “discussed” having sex with minors, online and off. He bought the books.
    So if you want to write for sick fucks like that, go ahead. Although you are not to blame for his attacks, you are feeding his fantasies and giving him a kind of approval, telling him it’s all right because there are other people like him around.
    So yes, in this case, such stories, that encourage illegal acts, should be curtailed. Stopped. Banned. I’m all for a lack of censorship, but in this case sex with a minor is an illegal act, condemned by society and shouldn’t be encouraged. Discussed as a mental illness maybe, treated certainly, but not encouraged.
    When (ha!) the government decides to legalise the sex act between children and adults, then it’s okay to write about it. But I won’t be here then and Hell will be a very cold place.

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  • rgraham666
    January 7
    3:53 pm

    Sigh.

    The hyperbole, on both sides, is getting quite out of hand.

    As far as writing goes, and the effect it has, I think Rod Serling said it best. “I am responsible to the public, not for the public.”

    Pedophilia is illegal and abhorrent. If a person does such a thing I have no problem with locking them in a dungeon so deep we have to lower their food to them in pressurized containers.

    That is an entirely different thing than writing or thinking about it though. There are many triggers for people who would do such a thing, say, catalogs with children in underwear, both online and on paper. There’s playgrounds and schoolyards. Are we going to ban and close those?

    Some people regard homosexuality and lesbianism as sick and evil. Indeed they often confuse pedophilia with them. Shall we stop people from writing about those things in a positive light?

    Some people think BDSM is sick and evil. Will that be banned as well?

    A person has to be very careful when dealing with freedom of speech and thought. If not, we can lose them. If we lose those we lose everything.

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    4:23 pm

    “Pedophilia is illegal and abhorrent. If a person does such a thing I have no problem with locking them in a dungeon so deep we have to lower their food to them in pressurized containers.
    That is an entirely different thing than writing or thinking about it though.”

    YES THERE ARE MANY TRIGGERS FOR PEDOPHILES, BUT ONE CANNOT EXCUSE THE FACT THAT ONE OF THE MAIN TRIGGERS IS PLACES THAT ALLOW CHATTING, AND WRITING OF FANTASIES ABOUT CHILDREN THAT TRIGGER THE ACTIONS OF THESE PEOPLE AND THAT IF THESE PLACES “LIMITED” THERE WRITTEN FANTASIES TO THE ADULT KIND-THEN YES, I WILL GO AS FAR AS TO SAY WE CAN HELP PROTECT OUR KIDS.

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    4:24 pm

    OH AND HOMOSEXUALITY, AND LESBIANISM, AND BDSM-AND WHAT YOU DO IN YOUR BEDROOM IS ALL FINE IF IT’S ALL CONSENTING ADULTS.

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  • azteclady
    January 7
    4:33 pm

    Full disclosure:
    – I was sexually abused at around age 7.
    – I find abuse of children–physical, sexual, emotional, mental–to be the lowest of the low.

    However.

    Statements like this, I’m all for a lack of censorship, but in this case (by anon at 3:38PM) scare me. I can see more and more “in this case” instances brought up–until everything is regulated according to someone else’s idea of morality, right, godly, (un)natural (homosexuality, for instance), whatever.

    My thinking is much closer to rgraham666’s above (particularly regarding the hyperbole–I’d rather focus on the substance).

    We can hold people accountable for their actions, not their thoughts. If and when said actions include pandering (as described further up thread), or encouraging of harmful*** behaviour, then by golly they are guilty.

    [*** where harmful means: without consent, or where consent can't be given--i.e., a minor or mentally handicapped individual]

    But guilt only by association seems to me to fly against the very idea of a free society.

    ReplyReply


  • Anonymous
    January 7
    4:42 pm

    “I went through that thread, too, over at Literotica. It seems to me they’re talking not about children, but teenagers, adolescents, and their sexuality.”

    NO. Some people were talking about the given fact that teens experiment together with each other regarding sexuality. OTHERS advocated that since they are already experimenting, why would it be so wrong for an adult to jump into the mix. Hey, they are hot and seem to be so darn worldly! Dang vixens.

    “In some countries, the age of consent is sixteen. When sex between a sixteen year old and twenty eight year old is considered pedophilia, there’s something wrong with your value system. No one here has advocated for abuse or said the actual touching of a young child was okay.”

    Again, dang vixens. And no, 16 and 28 wouldn’t be considered pedophilia exactly, but definitely inappropriate contact with a MINOR.

    And 16 wasn’t always the age discussed. Teen years range from 13-19. Reminds me of that old twisted saying, “If it’s old enough to bleed, it’s old enough to breed.”

    Past that post, what two consenting adults decide to do together bothers me not a lick. Hell, if you get off on branding each other, do so. But when your kink is Minors, then yes, I have a big problem. Or if your kink in any way involves innocents without consent. Say mutilating and/or torturing others or animals. Those who either have or cannot say NO when it comes to another’s sexual “fantasy”.

    Honestly, at 16 I considered myself really worldly based on a very troubled upbringing. But you know what? I didn’t know squat. I felt smart and tough at the time because more than one yahoo took a stolen moment to partially live out his “fantasy” of petting a teen. Not including stuff when I was a “child”. Hence I thought myself galvanized against predators.

    Wrong. I still pay to this day for those little moments when a harmless “thinker” stepped a hair over the bounds.

    Anon76

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    4:55 pm

    And here is something to think about.

    When I was in school (granted, a long time ago) it was never considered “cool” to even date a person 3 or more years younger than yourself (sometimes 2).

    It’s almost like, as teens, we understood better the mental developement of our peers.

    Now, my hubby is 8 years older than I, but we were both considered adults in the US at the time. Big difference to me.

    Anon76

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    4:57 pm

    “And no, 16 and 28 wouldn’t be considered pedophilia exactly, but definitely inappropriate contact with a MINOR.”

    16 IS A MINOR AND A PERSON -AS OLD AS 28 AND EVEN LOWER THAN THAT-HAVING SEX WITH A 16 YEAR OLD SHOULD BE PROSCUTED AND SHOULD REGISTER AS A SEX OFFENDER. HOW CAN YOU SAY IF YOU’RE 28- IT CAN BE LOWERED TO INNAPPROPRIATE CONTACT? NO IT CAN’T. IT’S STILL A CHILD-AND THE 28 YEAR OLD IS STILL A PERVERTED FUCK.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    5:09 pm

    Ah, Cookie,

    I wasn’t in agreement about the 16 thing being okay. Read my next post.

    What I was saying is, that at least in my neck of the woods, they wouldn’t label that contact pedophilia in the courts.

    Anon76

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    5:16 pm

    I read that part, Anon76.

    Realistically, I realize that it does happen, but I don’t agree with it, because no matter where you live “16” is still a child.

    ReplyReply


  • Shiloh Walker
    January 7
    5:18 pm


    Some people regard homosexuality and lesbianism as sick and evil. Indeed they often confuse pedophilia with them. Shall we stop people from writing about those things in a positive light?

    Some people think BDSM is sick and evil. Will that be banned as well?

    This isn’t a good comparision, IMO. These things, whether they push an individual’s squick button or not, won’t possibly lead to the harm of a child.

    However, sexually fantasizing about a child can.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 7
    5:24 pm

    But this mob would like to stand at the gallows and cheer to watch someone hung for championing the freedom of THOUGHT!?

    If there’s been any kind of cheering going on, I haven’t seen it.

    I stand by what I said… somebody has sexual thoughts about my kids (ages 8, 5 & 1) yes, I would kill.

    If that means I have a mob mentality in the minds of some, hey, that’s fine. I’ve got a mind of my own~ I know this, and whether others think so or not doesn’t faze me in the least.

    What’s thrown me, and probably a lot of others, were Selena’s comments that there’s no harm in just thinking in a deviant way. I can’t find the exact ones… they must have gotten deleted.

    But from what I remember, most of her comments were along the lines that it’s okay to think whatever. Nothing wrong with it, no matter how deviant the thoughts may be. That’s the impression she left me with.

    And if that is her view point… it’s. As opinionated as I am, I rarely tell people what they should or shouldn’t think.

    But when it comes to protecting kids from predators, I’ll do it every time.

    Thought can lead to action.

    A lot of people think about writing a book. Some do, some even make a living from it.

    A lot of people think about having an affair. Some do.

    A lot of people have probably thought about stealing money from a bank, their work, etc. Some do it.

    And while I refuse to believe that normal people have sexualized thoughts about children…. yes, there are people who have those sexualized thoughts, and never act on them. But some… too many… do.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 7
    5:38 pm

    That is an entirely different thing than writing or thinking about it though. There are many triggers for people who would do such a thing, say, catalogs with children in underwear, both online and on paper. There’s playgrounds and schoolyards. Are we going to ban and close those?

    I do like your dungeon/pressurized food containers idea.

    But my problem with the above line of thinking is this…

    Thinking it~no, there’s no way we can stop them from thinking it.

    However places where people with these sort of thoughts are allowed to write them down in fantasy form… no, I don’t think it should tolerated or allowed.

    My reasoning is this… sexual predators don’t need the outside feeding into their fantasies. They don’t need the extra triggers. Yes, schoolyards, catalogs, etc can be and are triggers, but why give them something that’s probably even more tempting to them?

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 7
    5:42 pm

    Yes… I am wordy today, aren’t I?

    Last little bit from me, then I’m getting to work. Sorry to keep posting right after the other, but I’ve got too much to say and this just let me organize my thoughts better.

    Regarding Phaze/Literotica/the authors who may happen to write for both, and the two sites themselves…

    I do have to say I don’t really see how it’s Phaze’s fault that the Literotica forums get like this. Unless Phaze owns Literotica, and I don’t think they do. Some of their authors write or have written for Literotica. Guilt by association? Not something I care for.

    But when certain authors leap in and toss out sentiments that thinking anything or whatever is just fine and dandy, it doesn’t reflect very well on Phaze. Is that fair? No.

    But it’s also not fair that we live in a world where people prey on children.

    And a disclaimer… I haven’t gone to the Literotica site, their forums, nothing. I formed my opinion just going by what Karen quoted on her blog

    Judge a book by it’s cover? In this case, hell yeah.

    The comment some sick bastard made about a ‘little girl’s first time…’ (posted on a forum of Lit, I believe) was enough to convince me that I don’t ever want to look at their site. The fact that they don’t ban any such discussion assured me I don’t need to be there.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    5:49 pm

    Sixteen is the age of consent in the UK. It is America’s 18. It wouldn’t be an illegal or prosecutable offense for a 28 year old (or a 48 year old for that matter) to have sex with a 16 year old in the UK. Nor would that person have to register as any sort of sex offender. Thank you for proving my point. The line moves, especially when we are talking about adolescents (13+) as they were on the thread Selena posted on to which Karen referred. Speaking of which, I’m not here to defend Selena – I have no idea who she even is – but I would defend her right to speak out against censorship, as I would defend the rest of the posters here who have spoken out against censorship (many, I see, who were, like I am, not as courageous as Selena in posting their identities.) It seems to me the only crime being committed here is censorship.

    You talk about some authors on another blog getting their knickers in a twist and blowing things out of proportion? That’s exactly what we have here. A mob of rabid, foaming at the mouth, self-righteous sheeple who have twisted their oppositions’ words from “I oppose censorship of thought and fantasy” into “I support pedophila.”

    Selena said she’d rather have her name associated with an incest story than this “piggybacked gossipfest.” I note she didn’t say an underaged incest story. Incest, like a rape fantasy, or a homosexual fantasy, or a fantasy about having sex with an octopus, takes place between consenting adults (or consenting fictional octipids.)

    But I can see her point. This mob mentality has tried and hung her and every other oppositional force who has come in to logically and rationally support her defence of freedom of speech and thought – even the woman who was an actual victim of abuse herself, who spoke out against censorship! A very open, courageous view, I’d say.

    Again, as I see it, no one here has advocated hurting children. But many have advocated what amounts to nothing short of castration for people who want to defend others’ rights to free speech and thought.

    Shiloh, as for what you are spouting, I can understand your feelings about your own children – I have them, too. But the reality is that the “research” you quote is fictional and is clearly just an emotional response. The actual research proves the opposite – that thought does NOT lead to action.

    If Selena made a comment that deviant thoughts aren’t a crime – she was correct. Although I don’t see that comment here. And if it was deleted – well we have another form of censorship at work, don’t we? And it proves that censorship simply muddies the waters.

    If you have actual data that supports your position, I’d like to see it. Because from what I’ve seen, the data does not support the idea that fiction leads to action. The idea that writing or having sexual fantasy leads to doing is patently false, at least in terms of scientific evidence, and not mob rule. Just as it’s false to say that reading or viewing pornography leads to rape. Which could put a damper on your profession as an erotic writer, now couldn’t it?

    By the way, anon, whoever you are, posting your view in ALL CAPS does not make your argument any more compelling.

    And Nora, as for this: “I guess that makes me part of the mob cheering at the gallows. Or a Nazi, or a fascist. Take your choice.”

    You make your choice. I’ll make my own.

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  • Kayleigh Jamison
    January 7
    6:07 pm

    Some people think BDSM is sick and evil. Will that be banned as well?

    This isn’t a good comparison, IMO. These things, whether they push an individual’s squick button or not, won’t possibly lead to the harm of a child.

    However, sexually fantasizing about a child can.

    Amen to that, Shiloh. I remember a few weeks back (maybe longer, my sense of time is never good) on this blog there was a discussion about so-called “extreme” BDSM practices like blood play. People came down pretty hard on it, thinking it aberrant, and then the comparisons to incest and pedophilia began.

    I got up in arms over that one. I have had BDSM relationships before, and one that involved blood play. I’m not sure I’d do it again, but I made the decision to do it as a 26 year old consenting adult involved in a relationship with a 28 year old consenting adult.

    Some people – perhaps most people – think that’s sick, abnormal, etc. That’s fine, I have no problem with other people feeling that way. I do have a problem with somehow being equated to a child molester or rapist.

    The difference here is consent. And consent is everything, not just from a legal standpoint (though I do often view it that way given my own legal training; once you start thinking like a lawyer it’s nearly impossible to stop).

    There are very few crimes, at least in the United States, where intent does not play a factor – and to a lesser degree, consent. Statutory rape, however, is one of them. It doesn’t matter if the underage participant was consenting (they almost always are). It doesn’t even matter if the of-age participant knew that s/he was engaging in sex with a child. There are countless cases where the adult had perfectly good reason to think s/he was dealing with someone of age (they were in an over 21 bar, they had a fake ID, and so forth) but for statutory rape, lack of intent is not a defense. Consent is not a defense.

    Why? Because the law believes that until a person reaches the age of 18, they cannot consent to sex no matter how worldly they believe themselves to be. Just like you can’t drive a car until you’re 16, or buy a beer until you’re 21.

    I sure as hell thought I knew everything when I was 16, and I sure as hell was wrong. Hell, I thought I knew everything at 22, and I was wrong then, too. I’m only now at 27 starting to realize that the most important thing I know is that I know pretty much nothing.

    For those who’ve said that it’s a slipper slope: yes, it certainly is. For those who’ve said that it can be abused: yes, it absolutely has been.

    Child molestation, pedophilia, and sexual abuse are things our legal system, and our society as a whole, take very seriously. Just look at the rules of evidence our country has set forth. When a person is on trial for a crime, past crimes, or past like behavior is not allowed into the courtroom to prove a propensity to commit murder, robbery, what have you…except in the case of sexual assault and child molestation. (Check out Federal Rule of Evidence 413, the so-called “rape shield” law). Why? Because our society believes those crimes to be so serious, so abhorrent that they warrant drastic measures to prevent their re occurrence. Again, has the Rule been abused? Of course. You can find slews of articles on the subject and the general consensus is that the Rule has opened a Pandora’s Box. In some ways it has. But for the most part, I can live with that.

    I have a good friend, another law student, who prior to starting law school worked for the North Carolina Public Defender’s Office in the Sex Crimes/Child Abuse division, representing pedophiles. It’s actually what she wants to do once she finishes law school and becomes an attorney. We frequently get into heated debates on the subject, because while I agree that every person has the right to a competent defense, I personally could never stomach defending a child molester or rapist. I think part of it is my own experience as a rape victim. Part of it is my own “moral compass.” I could never, EVER, strive to set free a person I knew had abused a child. Never.

    But even she supports banning so-called “virtual kiddie porn.” The context she usually refers to is images and videos – pornography using of-age consenting adults, computer manipulated to make one of them look like a child. There’s no real victim, because there’s no real child involved. As of now, it’s legal. She’s also against fiction that glorifies child molestation, incest, etc. It opens the door, she says. I called her last night, read her this entire thread, and her response was, “You have no idea how many of the people I defended used fiction or virtual porn to kick-start their imaginations, and to provide the basis for fantasies they later lived out with real children. I’m against it, absolutely.”

    So to those of you who say that F-I-C-T-I-O-N has no real victims, you’re right. It doesn’t…until it does.

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  • Lynne Connolly
    January 7
    6:12 pm

    “If you have actual data that supports your position, I’d like to see it. Because from what I’ve seen, the data does not support the idea that fiction leads to action. The idea that writing or having sexual fantasy leads to doing is patently false, at least in terms of scientific evidence, and not mob rule.”

    I don’t know about the US, but in the UK it is illegal to own material featuring children (ie under 13) in sexual situations. That means if you write it, if you fantasise it and communicate that fantasy to others, you are breaking the law if that results in an act of paedophilia. So if your story about sex with a minor is found on the hard drive or the bookshelf of a paedophile, or if your site is bookmarked on their computer, you could receive up to 14 years in jail.
    The legal definition for sex with prepubescent children is paedophilia. There is a different definition for children aged 13-16 and different laws, but it is just as illegal. You can go to jail for owning paedophilic material, and people have done so.
    If you want confirmation, it’s in Hansard, the list of White Papers and UK Law. Your principal reference would be the Sexual Offences Act, 2003.
    http://www.crimeinfo.org.uk/servlet/factsheetservlet?command=viewfactsheet&factsheetid=100&category=factsheets
    Maybe someone can put up the similar situation in the US, just to make it clear that we are discussing potentially illegal acts.

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  • Kayleigh Jamison
    January 7
    6:17 pm

    Ok, you’ll have to excuse the typos. I did proofread, but as per usual, didn’t catch everything.

    When I get on a roll…lol.

    Oh, and to those saying that society evolves and in the past it was acceptable for a 12 year old to get married, so on and so forth: you’re right there. But I echo another poster’s sentiments in that if we ever reach a place, as a society, where pedophilia is acceptable, it’s not a society I want to live in.

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  • Cookie
    January 7
    6:19 pm

    “Sixteen is the age of consent in the UK. It is America’s 18. It wouldn’t be an illegal or prosecutable offense for a 28 year old (or a 48 year old for that matter) to have sex with a 16 year old in the UK. Nor would that person have to register as any sort of sex offender. Thank you for proving my point. The line moves, especially when we are talking about adolescents (13+) as they were on the thread Selena posted on to which Karen referred.”

    THE LINE HAS NOT MOVED. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN HERE, AND IN AMERICA YES 16 IS A CHILD. I LIVE IN THE US, AND I’VE NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW ABOUT OTHER COUNTRIES.

    It seems to me the only crime being committed here is censorship.
    THERE IS NO CENSORSHIP ON KAREN’S BLOG-YEAH, YEAH SELENA HAS BEEN KICKED OFF-BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT WHEN YOU’RE ON KAREN’S BLOG-SHE CAN DO WHATEVER THE HELL SHE WANTS TO DO.

    “You talk about some authors on another blog getting their knickers in a twist and blowing things out of proportion? That’s exactly what we have here. A mob of rabid, foaming at the mouth, self-righteous sheeple who have twisted their oppositions’ words from “I oppose censorship of thought and fantasy” into “I support pedophila.”
    IF WE’RE SO RABID, THEN DON’T POST HERE, DON’T READ IT, DON’T VISIT. GET THE HELL OFF THE SITE.

    “Selena said she’d rather have her name associated with an incest story than this “piggybacked gossipfest.” INCEST IS DISGUSTING-DON’T SUGAR COAT IT. IT’S GROSS, AND VILE.

    “But I can see her point. This mob mentality has tried and hung her and every other oppositional force who has come in to logically and rationally support her defence of freedom of speech and thought – even the woman who was an actual victim of abuse herself, who spoke out against censorship!” IF YOU SEE HER POINT SO WELL, GO HAND OUT WITH HER. EVERY ONE WHO POSTED IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINION-YES BUT WHEN IT BECOMES DISGUSTING-INCEST, PEDOPHILES THEN DON’T BE SURPRISED WHEN OTHERS WHO ARE AGAINST IT VOICE THERES.

    “Shiloh, as for what you are spouting, I can understand your feelings about your own children – I have them, too. But the reality is that the “research” you quote is fictional and is clearly just an emotional response. The actual research proves the opposite – that thought does NOT lead to action.” YES-PEDOPHILE FANTASIES DO LEAD TO ACTION. WHAT SHILOH IS SAYING-IS NOT SPOUTING. SHE’S CORRECT. I WOULD KILL FOR BOTH MY KIDS TOO.

    AND ANON, MY NAME IS COOKIE- AND I POST IT IN ALL CAPS TO REPLY TO YOUR Nazi, or a fascist TAKE YOUR PIC, VIEWS.

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  • Anonymous
    January 7
    7:11 pm

    “Again, as I see it, no one here has advocated hurting children. But many have advocated what amounts to nothing short of castration for people who want to defend others’ rights to free speech and thought.”

    What part of “adult sex with minors” don’t you get? What part of “it’s hot for the adult, but can have lasting physical and mental consequences for the “minor”” don’t you get?

    What is your line for the age of a “child”? 5? 8? 12? 15?

    Define child, and when they are okay to fantasize about and have sex with.

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  • kirsten saell
    January 7
    9:47 pm

    But even she supports banning so-called “virtual kiddie porn.” The context she usually refers to is images and videos – pornography using of-age consenting adults, computer manipulated to make one of them look like a child. There’s no real victim, because there’s no real child involved. As of now, it’s legal. She’s also against fiction that glorifies child molestation, incest, etc.

    In Canada, unless they’ve changed the rules in the last year, any pornographic material where an adult is altered to look like they are under 18 is illegal. Despite the fact that the LEGAL AGE OF CONSENT in Canada is 14. The only adult who would get in any kind of trouble having sexual contact with a 16-year-old is someone in authority: cop, doctor, teacher, parent, etc.

    Incestuous thoughts may not be considered normal, but they are more common than people like to think. Incest doesn’t necessarily equate with pedophilia. Incestuous fantasies do not always originate in the minds of parents or uncles. They wouldn’t have a name for it – Oedipus (or Electra) complex – if it never happened. Not every person leaves this stage of their psychosexual development behind in childhood.

    Pandering to pedophiles is WRONG. There is nothing healthy about fantasizing about prepubescent children. But I don’t recall reading anyone here actually advocating such behavior.

    And Cookie, you really need to stop shouting. It’s hurting my virtual ears.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 7
    9:53 pm

    But the reality is that the “research” you quote is fictional and is clearly just an emotional response. The actual research proves the opposite – that thought does NOT lead to action.

    I did NOT say that thinking something will always lead to action. I never indicated research behind my comment.

    What I clearly said,

    Thought can lead to action.

    and

    I refuse to believe that normal people have sexualized thoughts about children…. yes, there are people who have those sexualized thoughts, and never act on them. But some… too many… do.

    Thoughts CAN lead to action.

    A sentence can lead to action. Proof of that…

    http://tinyurl.com/2owqye

    Tells about how a guy 40 years old who’d never hurt a child turned into a molester, all because his wife mentioned to him that his daughter’s body was changing.

    If an innocent comment like that can do it… then a written down detailed explanation will do the same. Anything…books, movies, a catalog, a fight, losing a job, child porn, can be a trigger.

    So having a site that allows sexual fantasies regarding children IS putting a trigger out there.

    Will it ever trip anybody? At some point, most likely, yes.

    Some facts…

    Pedophilia, sexually fantasizing about a child is a mental disorder according the American Psychiatric Association.

    http://tinyurl.com/32lq4

    From a glossary found on the Center for Sex Offender Management.

    http://www.csom.org/

    Triggers: An external event that begins the abuse or acting out cycle (i.e., seeing a young child, watching people argue, etc.).

    Anything can trigger a pedophile and turn him from a pedophile into a molester. By legal terms, not all pedophiles are child molesters. Until they actually touch a child, they aren’t molesters. There’s a line that separates a pedophile from a molester, but it’s too damn thin.

    I mentioned that the brain is wired differently in a pedophile and there’s scientific data that indicates the brain of pedophile is different.

    http://tinyurl.com/ywxq7y

    Research also indicates that child porn (and what else would you call a story about a man fantasizing having about sex with a little girl?) is a valid indicator for pedophilia.

    Another medical research link~
    http://tinyurl.com/2ght8r

    So can we perhaps maybe agree that pedophiles don’t think the same way normal people do? They don’t have the same behavior make up?

    Many pedophiles lack impulse control.Would you maybe think that those who don’t have viable self control mechanisms, who have problems with impulsive behavior are more likely to take fantasy a step farther and try to live it out?

    Regarding a lack of empathy and self control, here are some links.

    http://tinyurl.com/2tfyjy ~ it’s on page 11.

    http://tinyurl.com/2aqmjk

    All that separates the pedophile who thinks and the molester who molests is the act. By reading something detail how ‘powerful and erotic’ a ‘little girl’s’ first time is.. the pedophile could very well become the molester.

    What prevents the act is self control, but self control can be worn down.

    If you put a temptation before them, they can walk away.

    But will they?

    The answer is … some will. But some won’t.

    If you’d like to discuss research and facts, then I want to know where you found your research that reading, writing or thinking about sexually assaulting a child has never led to an actual assault.

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  • Karen Scott
    January 7
    10:12 pm

    Shi, funnily enough, I’ve just watched two programmes talking about predators on the internet, and men grooming children with the specific purpose of trying to organise meetings with them, to have sex. Very timely indeed.

    A group trying to capture pedos on the internet set up various stings on the net, pretending to be young children. The ‘child’ agreed to meet one of the pedos, and he was obviously met with a camera man and TV presenter. The guy had KY jelly in his back pocket. He thought the little girl was 14.

    Another guy in Germany was caught trying to groom a young girl, and his excuse was that he’d not done anything wrong, it was just a fantasy of his. The things he was chatting to the little girl about was obscene. When they raided his house, they found evidence of his fantasies. The guy had over 25k photos of kids being sexually molested on his hard drive. As far as anybody knew, he’d never actually physically committed an indecent act against a child, but I think we can all read between the lines here can’t we.

    By the way, he was an ordained priest.

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  • Alyssa
    January 7
    11:55 pm

    But the reality is that the “research” you quote is fictional and is clearly just an emotional response. The actual research proves the opposite – that thought does NOT lead to action.

    Are you saying that predators don’t think about abusing children and committing acts of rape and murder before they commit the act? Is that what you mean? Or what am I missing here?

    Not everyone who has a random thought of killing their neighbor is going to put thought to action. However, “thought does not lead to action” is a pretty broad statement, one that strikes me as inaccurate.

    It can lead to action.

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  • Emily Veinglory
    January 8
    1:20 am

    The Nazis have been name checked. We can all go home now.

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  • Anonymous
    January 8
    2:20 am

    But the reality is that the “research” you quote is fictional and is clearly just an emotional response. The actual research proves the opposite – that thought does NOT lead to action.

    Funny how someone else’s research is “fictional”. I think it’s your research that is fictional.

    Thoughts, when repeated and justified in the person’s mind, will lead to actions.

    People who write about a little girl who has a “rewarding” first sexual experience with her father (or any other adults) is writing KIDDIE PORN.

    Instead of sugar-coating it, just admit that you like writing, reading and supporting kiddie porn. Because that’s what you are: kiddie porn lover.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 8
    2:37 am

    Instead of sugar-coating it, just admit that you like writing, reading and supporting kiddie porn. Because that’s what you are: kiddie porn lover.

    I wouldn’t say that. The anon that called my ‘research’ fictional is probably either misreading my comments or deliberately misunderstanding them.

    I said thoughts can lead to action… maybe she read thoughts do lead to action. I don’t know.

    But I wouldn’t say she’s supporting kiddie porn.

    I would she says she’s taking her advocacy of freedom of thought & expression a little extreme.

    I’m all for freedom of thought and expression… providing it doesn’t include minors in sexual situations.

    I draw my line there because the abnormal traits that pedophiles and child molesters are predisposed to often go hand in hand with poor impulse control and their self control is what keeps them from assaulting a child.

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  • Shiloh Walker
    January 8
    2:41 am

    guh…

    this SHOULD have read

    I would say she’s taking her advocacy of freedom of thought & expression a little extreme.

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  • sallahdog
    January 8
    3:14 pm

    Shi, funnily enough, I’ve just watched two programmes talking about predators on the internet, and men grooming children with the specific purpose of trying to organise meetings with them, to have sex. Very timely indeed.

    Karen, I just want to point out, since this started over literotica(that is an over 18 website and doesnt support the writing of stories of MINORS, in any flavor) that these preditors aren’t grooming kids from Lits site… They go to where the KIDS are. Which seems largely forgotten in the crazy directions this kid took.

    I doubt that :getting rid: of place like Lit (where kiddie porn is discouraged) would get rid of the preditors..

    I have nanny bot software that allows me to see what kinds of conversations my kids have on the net. Its led to some interesting conversations with one of my kids, getting her to see that just because someone says they are 12, doesnt mean that they are.

    I would caution any parent who thinks, that it can’t happen to their kid, to think again.

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  • Jeddy
    October 14
    10:46 am

    Censorship does not work. If it did then things which happen would never ever happen . In this Information Age, everything is known within seconds. Way back before computers, TV and radio – the same things happened without access to any kind of information commit such crimes. Those who are criminals do not need prompting or encouragement from anywhere, they just go ahead and do it. Its assumed that these things are the product of uncensored items books, magazines or the Internet. Criminals may possess such items but they do not need as a means to an end.

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