Fisticuffs At Dawn: Ann “I’m A Professional” Jacobs v JC Wilder

Posted in Uncategorized Sunday April 27, 2008

Apparently Ann Jacobs, EC author, has taken it upon herself to berate JC Wilder for daring to be critical of the EC cover models behaviour at RT.

Ann (on her blog) writes:

Sure, there were some possibly newsworthy happenings…the kinds of things that always draw the attention of vultures of the tabloid press and their readers alike. If you’re interested, you can learn all the dirty details, fully embellished, at blogs like smartbitches and JC Wilder’s to name just two.

Hey, I think she’s calling us readers and bloggers vultures. How do you like that? What gratitude.

Anyway, JC Wilder then puts up a post entitled, When Good Authors Go Bad:

As the stomach turns…

I have been removed from one of my publisher’s email list entirely. Once again, I’m pretty sure it was just me that was removed – but what about the other authors who work for other publishers? Chances are they weren’t booted…just little ole me.

The last instance of removing an author from their lists (without telling her by the way) was an author who complained about the publisher’s bad behavior. They too were removed from the lists without any contact from said publisher.

Now THAT is professionalism.

So basically the mods at EC booted her off their group list. Charming.

Anyway, this is a comment from Ann Jacobs in response to the above post:

My guess is, no other EC author who writes for more than one publisher has gone out of her way to diss the rest of us, our mutual publisher and the cover models who grace the covers of our EC books.

About professionalism: people who live in glass houses should be careful about throwing stones. If an author is displeased about something she feels reflects badly on herself as an author, she should take her concerns up with people who can do something about valid complaints. That would not be her fellow authors, blog readers or the world at large.

I get the feeling that Ann’s the type that would defend her publisher even if they were shafting her fellow authors blind. I’m really starting to intensely dislike those types.

I bet she’s the black-balling type too. From the tone of her e-mail, I’m pretty sure she’d be all for ostracising any of her fellow authors who she felt spoke out of turn.

And people wonder how the Madris DePastures and the Deb MacGillivrays of this world get away with treating their authors like crap.

From a reader’s point of view, I think Ann Jacob’s response reflects far worse on her, than JC Wilder’s, especially in light of the recent e-publishers behaving like fucktards episodes.

It seems to me that not only was Jacobs trying to gag Wilder, but the above response seemed a tad threatening too. A kind of ‘Behave, or else’ message.

She obviously learned those intimidation tactics from the higher ups at EC. Did I just say that out loud?

Thanks to you-know-who for the tip-off.

106 Comments »

106 piped up to “Fisticuffs At Dawn: Ann “I’m A Professional” Jacobs v JC Wilder”

  1. AvatarPuppet Truth
    1

    I wake up to this? Lord. It doesn’t surprise me stuff like this would happen, it happens at pretty much every publisher from what I hear, for no good reason. I’m a firm believer that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, in everything in their lives. Publishing is a business, and like in real life, people don’t always give glowing reviews. You deal with it, and you move on.

    Each day I see this industry get more and more catty. Its a shame. And I agree, Ann is coming off badly, but then again I’m not surprised when I met her she wasn’t all sweetness and light. If I hadn’t already chosen to never buy a single one of her books, then this would have been the kicker.

  2. AvatarLori Foster
    2

    Wow. What started out as an honest and on-point recap of things happening at RT (and yes, they DID happen) has escalated to a bizarre “you’re not allowed to recap” kind of censorship.
    I’ve known JC forever, and she’s witty, honest, and blunt. I saw much of what JC saw, and I blogged about it, and there’s no way any of my publishers (I’ve had 5 or is it 6?) would banish me from anything.
    But then, my publishers weren’t involved in some of the more bizarre goings-on.
    Do I blame all authors affiliated with that publisher? Heck no. I don’t even really blame the publisher – not for some of the stuff that happened at RT.
    But to kick someone off a loop?

    I’m all about fair play, so if JC was calling any other authors bad names (we know the names) then I’d say sure, keep peace on the loop and remove the rebel rouser. But for recapping things that happened, that shouldn’t have happened?
    Good grief folks! How can you ensure they won’t happen EVERY YEAR, thereby running off a lot of other folks who would otherwise be there, supporting you and buying your books?

    JC is not, by a long shot, the only one talking about this, or the only one disturbed by some of what happened.

    JC, come hang out with me at my board amond my friendly folk. We’d enjoy havin’ ya there. ;-)

    Happy Sunday all!

    Lori

  3. AvatarAztecLady
    3

    I’m very confuzzled by all these things, really.

    Then again, I know I shouldn’t ’cause there’s a certain history of… shall we say, very special perspective? from some of the folk involved.

    But yeah, professionalism indeed.

  4. AvatarLori Foster
    4

    Well, I’ve been published with Samhain, Harlequin, Silhouette, St. Martins, Kensington and now Berkley, and never have I ever heard of a publisher getting involved with personal comments made by an author.
    I suppose if an author was making up horrendous lies, a publisher might be forced to take legal action – but that’s not the case here.

    So I truly don’t want to see all publishers get painted with the same brush. Those I’ve known and worked with are incredibly professional, generous and caring with their authors.

    Off to write on my manuscript!

    Lori

  5. AvatarThrowmearope
    5

    I have no plans to attend RT evah, but at least now I know why. In the ‘hood where I grew up, if a guy’d groped me, he’d have drawn back a bloody stump.

    I’ve been permanently banned from a site I’d never posted on (pretty funny how that happened, but I digress). It was mere chance that I discovered being banned. My two geeky sons think that that’s both awesome and hilarious. “My mom pushed snark so far, that she got permanently banned from a site she’d never been to.” Ooh.

    But as we reiterate all the time, I’m just a reader. So being banned is no big deal.

    Seems like EC (+/- their authors) is burning bridges right, left and sideways. I’ve heard of JC Wilder, but no the professional writer Ann Jacobs.

  6. AvatarThrowmearope
    6

    Karen, I can’t work the edit link either! I meant “not” not “no.” Rats.

  7. AvatarCapo
    7

    “Ha! Thee have forsaken the Gods of Professionalism! Get thee hither behind me, Satan, or I shall blackball thee into the eternal fiery Pit!”

    Sometimes I think these e-pubs and their army of defenders cherish every minute of drama stirred up. They also invest far too much time and energy worrying about the next convention or conference. Write, damn it. You can either headache over how many male strippers you can round up to get your photo taken with and if other writers are blogging about what you did at the convention – OR you can write. If your writing hooks me I’ll be looking for your up&comings. I don’t waste money on conventions and couldn’t care less how you looked at the damned Fairy Ball. But I will buy a book.

  8. AvatarAgreeable
    8

    All your conclusions about both authors are spot-on. Trust me. Some publisher-loyal writers are such brown-nosers they could pass as human turds. In this case, that’s almost an understatement.

    It makes my damned skin crawl.

  9. AvatarCapo
    9

    BTW Karen, if you haven’t done so already please vote in our Romance Controversy Queen of the Year poll.

  10. AvatarKayleigh Jamison
    10

    God. Some days I really wish the internet would implode.

  11. AvatarI'm Not Yelling, I'm Just Saying
    11

    If anyone should be taken to task over this most recent dust-up, it should be Jacobs. That Publisher is already the big kahuna in the marketplace; they’ve no need to resort to pettiness or intimidation to maintain their market-share.

    Overzealous “defenders” like Ms Jacobs lend credence to Ms Wilder’s supposition that her publisher targets authors who dare to speak up. It’s time for That Publisher to behave like the multi-million dollar company it claims to be and put out a bland yet vaguely apologetic statement regretting the actions of some of the models (while also denying responsibility for said actions), and instituting Standards of Behavior for models at future events. If there are any future events.

    And speaking of Standards of Behavior, it might not be a bad idea for That Publisher to send a note around to their authors reminding them that PR matters will be handled by the company’s PR people. Such a note might also be a good opportunity to remind authors that while the company does not punish or discriminate against authors for sharing their opinions in public forums, the publisher would appreciate it if those authors made it clear that they speak for themselves and not That Publisher.

    Of course, all of the above actions would require That Publisher and its authors to behave like rational, business-minded adults instead of a drunken sorority clique on spring break in Cancun…but I digress.

    With New York nipping at its heels and angling for its turf, I would think, in order to continue to attract new readers and quality authors, That Publisher would go out of its way to maintain a reputation for professionalism and responsibility. These little tiffs, they add up over time. Who knows how many customers and authors will quietly find other vendors and venues rather than deal with drama, alleged backstabbing and accusations.

  12. Avatarnotfromhere
    12

    My not buy ever list is just getting longer and longer.

  13. AvatarAnon
    13

    As illumination:
    When a person who intends to set up a new publishing house spends six months or more with the publisher she works for, recruiting new authors and gathering privileged information, the first publisher can get antsy.

    Totally unrelated – JC Wilder is also Lisa Amrine, who works for Samhain as marketing director. So she doesn’t just write for another publisher, she is employed by them and has a reason to diss EC.
    If she continues on the private EC loops, there could be a conflict of interest, and so it would be in everyone’s interests if it didn’t continue that way.

    What, you thought it was straightforward, nothing to do with inter-company politics?

  14. AvatarAztecLady
    14

    What I think is that it is juvenile for publishers to whine about ‘sekrit motivations’ while they themselves provide fodder for everyone, their brother-in-law, their pet parrot and their crazy great aunt thrice removed to talk about them in a non-complimentary way.

    But what do I know? I just read and spend money on books :shrug:

  15. AvatarRobin
    15

    Well, I’ve been published with Samhain, Harlequin, Silhouette, St. Martins, Kensington and now Berkley, and never have I ever heard of a publisher getting involved with personal comments made by an author.

    I still remember the debacle almost two years ago when several Harlequin authors decided to take an aspiring author to task for daring to write a critical review on Amazon of one of the Harl author’s books. Aspiring author (who was not reviewing as an aspiring) was outed via some detective work involving a local RWA chapter, IIRC, and then drug through the proverbial mud for exercising what I think are perfectly legitimate rights that EVERY AUTHOR should be DEFENDING, not trying to silence (because, you know, silencers might need those rights sometime, too).

    Anyway, the editor of said authors afterward supposedly made a public statement indicating that she would not represent any author who spoke out of turn about said publisher or her authors (and can we have a working definition of what’s out of line, please).

    I’m not sure I can express the disgust I still feel, almost two years later, over that whole sordid display (and I’m NOT talking about the aspiring’s review) and the irony of threatening someone else’s career in the name of professionalism. Anyway, I don’t know if it’s just specific authors and editors, or if it’s a tone setting thing from one side or the other, or if like attracts like in certain cases. I know that not all editors and authors are like this, thank goodness.

    As for EC, for all the loud protestations from some of its authors of how wonderful everything is, there sure does seem to be an awful lot of drama — sordid drama, in fact — over there.

  16. AvatarAztecLady
    16

    (apologies for the double post, wordpress wouldn’t let me add more than a few characters when editing)

    Anyway, I was saying that I would be surprised if it turned out that all of the negative/scandalous/what-have-you incidents related by various and varied RT attendees, several of which involved the company in question, will turn out to be inventions by all those jealous people who can’t stand the success of said publisher.

    Cause really, there’s smoke a plenty, but of course there ain’t no fire nowhere, right?

  17. AvatarRobin
    17

    Totally unrelated – JC Wilder is also Lisa Amrine, who works for Samhain as marketing director. So she doesn’t just write for another publisher, she is employed by them and has a reason to diss EC.
    If she continues on the private EC loops, there could be a conflict of interest, and so it would be in everyone’s interests if it didn’t continue that way.

    This is the kind of thing that looks — from the outside, at least — like confirmation that EC *has something to worry about,* not like a reasonable step a business would take to reduce conflict of interest. Because it *looks* like EC is happy to make whatever money off of Wilder, but doesn’t want anything else that might go along with that. Because if she has reason to “diss EC,” why wouldn’t she have reason to diss Samhain by the same logic?

    Anyway, whatever the rationale behind the ousting, it has turned Wilder into the underdog, which, I’m guessing, cuts against the intention of ousting her. Which comes off as looking like one more miscalculation, regardless of what EC was trying to accomplish. And IMO it doesn’t really do anything to quiet the discussion of the original topic (in fact, it may just reignite it).

  18. AvatarTawny
    18

    First, wow, there’s a lot of crap being slung around here. I’m probably going to regret diving into this mess. Particularly since I am an EC author and take some personal offense to being thrown into the “drunken sorority clique on spring break in Cancun” category. Note: I also write for other publishers, including Samhain.

    This is the kind of thing that looks — from the outside, at least — like confirmation that EC *has something to worry about,* not like a reasonable step a business would take to reduce conflict of interest. Because it *looks* like EC is happy to make whatever money off of Wilder, but doesn’t want anything else that might go along with that. Because if she has reason to “diss EC,” why wouldn’t she have reason to diss Samhain by the same logic?

    Robin, I’m not sure I follow your logic. Could you elaborate? This is what I see: Lisa/JC is Director of Marketing for Samhain. It would be foolish for her to diss Samhain on a public blog/forum, considering her position with the company. Our author loops (both at EC and Samhain) are in place to share sensitive company information about future projects, marketing/promotional avenues the company is exploring, etc. I would think it was a smart business move on EC’s part to remove someone who is working for a competing publisher at such a high level within the organization from those loops.

    Anyway, whatever the rationale behind the ousting, it has turned Wilder into the underdog, which, I’m guessing, cuts against the intention of ousting her. Which comes off as looking like one more miscalculation, regardless of what EC was trying to accomplish. And IMO it doesn’t really do anything to quiet the discussion of the original topic (in fact, it may just reignite it).

    I agree, it does make her look like the underdog. And I would guess the folks at EC anticipated this as well. Which again makes me think that JC Wilder/ Lisa Amrine was not removed from the loops to punish her for posting her personal opinion, to somehow stop the heated discussions about the original topic, or to make EC look better. Because, it didn’t stop the criticism and it certainly didn’t make EC look better. I’m guessing the action was taken for some other purpose. Something we’re not seeing and EC may not be telling us.

  19. AvatarKayleigh Jamison
    19

    I’m just going to jumble my responses to several comments all together in one long, incoherent post.

    Re: Wilder having ulterior motives. Yeah, maybe she does. Maybe she doesn’t. But she’s certainly not the only person to address the topic of cover models behaving badly at RT this year. I wasn’t there, but I’ve read the blogs, and talked to friends who WERE, and so far I’m not seeing any of the blogs report misinformation or blow things out of proportion. According to authors who were there, experienced it, saw it, it really was that bad.

    Re: authors as reviewers and other conflicts of interest (goes to Wilder’s alleged motivations, too I guess). This is always a tough one. Authors are readers too. Who was it that said, “an author who writes more than he reads is a fool” or something? I write reviews for a romance review site. I use my real name, as opposed to my pen name, because I don’t want to be accused of sabotage or conflict of interest, or any of that other crapola. It’s actually to the point now where, if I read a book for review and I don’t feel I can give it better than a 2/5, I won’t write the review at all.

    In small press land, most people were a number of different hats. Reviewer, author, editor, artist… At one time, I was EIC of one epub and published not only there, but with several other publishers. I was never accused of having a conflict of interest, thank goodness, but I did feel as if I had to tread carefully to avoid it.

    These days I’m just an author. And a sometimes reviewer. Mostly just author. That’s how it’s going to stay, too.

    Hell, I’m done with the epub crap period. But that’s a different rant. And before I get jumped on, I don’t mean epublishing is crap. I mean a lot of the antics that go on within epublishing are crap, and that’s what I’m sick of.

  20. Avatara nony mouse
    20

    Tawny, in the interest of full disclosure, you should have mentioned that you and Ann roomed together at RT.

  21. AvatarTawny
    21

    Hi, a nony mouse. I’m not intentionally hiding the fact that I roomed with Ann. I’ve roomed with her for three years. That doesn’t mean I agree with *everything* she says or does, or that I’m here to defend her words/actions.

    No ulterior motives, or as someone said “sekrit motivations” here.

    I write for both houses, I wish to continue to write for both houses, and I would like to think I have an objective POV.

  22. AvatarLauren Dane
    22

    I love Tawny to pieces but I disagree about objectivity. None of us is objective or we wouldn’t have an opinion one way or another because we wouldn’t care otherwise.

    In the end – it’s a bunch of opinions for god’s sake! It’s OKAY to have an opinion. We don’t all have to agree on everything. It’s not trade secrets. It’s not marketing plans. It’s a bunch of mouthy women talking about their OPINIONS of what they saw at RT. The world will not fall down around our ears if we don’t agree with each other.

  23. AvatarShayne
    23

    Okay, objectivity aside. For an author who has a sub into EC or a reader who reads EC books, outwardly this looks like Wilder was kicked off the loop because of what she said about the RT thing.

    Anon people mentioning that Wilder is also someone in Samhain, and thus EC has reason to kick her is meaningless. To me at any rate. The first impression was not helped by Jacobs posting on Wilder’s blog as she did. In fact, her posting seems to back up the idea Wilder was kicked for her RT commenting. It’s not backing not the anon’s assertion.

    Not to mention, I had noticed there were a lot of anon postings in various places expressing complaints about EC. I dismissed them, but in a light of what is going on with Wilder, I’m wondering.

    This would be my opinion. As to whether I am right or wrong, I don’t know. It is how I see this. YMMV.

  24. AvatarRobin
    24

    Robin, I’m not sure I follow your logic. Could you elaborate? This is what I see: Lisa/JC is Director of Marketing for Samhain. It would be foolish for her to diss Samhain on a public blog/forum, considering her position with the company. Our author loops (both at EC and Samhain) are in place to share sensitive company information about future projects, marketing/promotional avenues the company is exploring, etc. I would think it was a smart business move on EC’s part to remove someone who is working for a competing publisher at such a high level within the organization from those loops.

    Well, it would depend on two things, in my opinion: 1) does every EC author have access to these loops, and 2) are any other EC authors published or employed by other houses? If the answer to either of these questions is yes, I think removing one author after the blog post in question looks unfair.

    Here’s how I see the conflict of interest issue: you have to apply the same rules across the board. So if you have multiple authors published by multiple houses on these loops, you either have a massive conflict of interest problem and should stop the loops totally, or you just accept that authors will have different opinions and not look like you have something to cover up by silencing only one or a handful of authors. IMO no one should be discussing confidential business information on author loops to begin with, as we’ve seen how private these loops, in reality, aren’t.

    But still, from an outsider’s perspective (i.e. mine), it seems disingenuous to say “conflict of interest” when it suits EC to do so. If EC is so worried about COI, then why have authors who work for or publish with other houses to begin with — unless they make money for EC. Because I don’t think for one minute that EC is signing authors out of the goodness of someone’s heart — they are doing it because they believe it will bring them business and make them money. So to me it seems problematic to accept an author in one’s company and then cut them off from something other authors have access to, simply because they said something someone in that company didn’t like. If you don’t trust authors who work with other houses, don’t sign them, in other words, but don’t give them *partial* privileges. That just looks bad, IMO.

  25. AvatarShayne
    25

    And I agree with I’m Not Yelling. It’s about time That Publisher to send a note around to their authors reminding them that PR matters will be handled by the company’s PR people.

    I would also suggest that That Publisher not be the only one, and All Publishers do that. This is getting ridiculous.

  26. AvatarAgreeable
    26

    Apparently, Lauren and Tawny, it isn’t considered “okay” to have opinions. The petty vindictiveness continues. Authors are taken down for wondering, asking, thinking. Do you see that or not? Honestly now, do you see that or not?

    And do you not see that certain authors are, purely and simply, company weasels?

  27. AvatarMarissa Scott
    27

    Either way, I wasn’t there, I didn’t see it, but if I had, I probably would have been appalled. That’s just in poor taste and it sounds rather raunchy… not to mention disrespectful to the American flag. Sheesh.

  28. AvatarAgreeable
    28

    I didn’t have to be there, either, to know who’s telling it like it is and who’s sucking up.

  29. AvatarLori Foster
    29

    Wow, left to see a movie and came home to a lot of posts! The movie was great, btw. ;-)

    If JC was kicked off because she’s working for Samhain, and there are all these secrets about EC on the loop, why was she not kicked off until now, after giving a recap of the conference?

    Folks, please keep in mind, JC did not EC names, or any of the EC authors names. She gave a RECAP. It happened. I saw some of it. Others saw more of it.
    It’s not smoke.
    It was a blaze.

    I heard EC models using very foul language. Others heard it. It’s not a good way to rep the company. Did EC intend that? I seriously doubt it. It just happened and next year they’ll probably warn the models beforehand NOT to grope women, not to let women grope them (at least in public where we all have to see) and not to drop the F bomb every other word where many might be offended.

    I don’t lump all authors together. I have some friends at EC and they’re very talented, professional authors.

    This is all a lot of overkill for an amusing recap of things that DID occur at the conference.

    Oh yeah, that stuff about the aspiring author getting blasted for writing a non-favorable review or something – I’m sickened too. Didn’t know anything about, hadn’t heard a word until today. Insane.
    I’d love to see the original material on that.

    Anyhoo… I’m not tarring and feathering anyone. I just adore JC and respect her right to do her fun recaps of the truth.
    Go JC!

    Lori

  30. AvatarSarah McCarty
    30

    I think a lot of people are able to view situations objectively. An individual’s ability to do that will depend on their ability to assess a situation without viewing it as a personal issue, but I have seen plenty of examples of objective assessments on this and other blog. Not every opinion has to be rooted in emotion to be valid.

  31. AvatarAgreeable
    31

    Lori, thanks for stepping up to the plate. Just sayin’.

  32. AvatarLauren Dane
    32

    I don’t see that it’s necessary to call anyone a weasel, company or otherwise. IMO, that takes the discussion into a place where frankly nothing positive happens. Are there people I don’t like? Sure. But it’s not necessary for me to take it to some personal level. The argument is, at least from where I sit – having an opinion doesn’t make you an enemy of anyone – it means you have an opinion. To portray it any other way is ridiculous, IMO.

    And Agreeable, did you read what I said? (We actually agree.)

  33. AvatarLauren Dane
    33

    and by the way, by mouthy women – I include myself. Just to clarify!

  34. AvatarRobin
    34

    Oh yeah, that stuff about the aspiring author getting blasted for writing a non-favorable review or something – I’m sickened too. Didn’t know anything about, hadn’t heard a word until today. Insane.
    I’d love to see the original material on that.

    Ask and you shall receive. And receive.

    I heard EC models using very foul language. Others heard it. It’s not a good way to rep the company. Did EC intend that? I seriously doubt it. It just happened and next year they’ll probably warn the models beforehand NOT to grope women, not to let women grope them (at least in public where we all have to see) and not to drop the F bomb every other word where many might be offended.

    Perhaps this is one of the places we see the unique business sense of publishers as opposed to other consumer-oriented businesses. IMO, an apology from EC and RT, even if they think they did NOTHING wrong, would have gone a long way, IMO, to make people feel their dignity was valued and would have restored some good taste to what, by MANY accounts, seemed to be a pretty tasteless situation.

  35. AvatarSara Dennis
    35

    What I honestly don’t understand is why JC reporting about something other authors have commented on is somehow raising a fuss. Nor do I see what her working for Samhain has to do with anything.

    Should she perhaps be removed from the business loop at EC? Sure, that would make sense. But I can’t recall seeing serious business stuff discussed on any other loop.

  36. AvatarSeressia
    36

    Is there an insidious infection inside the internet? The longer one is online, the greater the chance of coming down with e-insanity? Should I block my favorite sites before it’s too late? Somehow I don’t think Norton’s antivirus will protect me from this.

    I mean, I like connecting with readers, other writers, and bloggers, but man!–some of this stuff is just fatiguing! When do people have time to write novels?

  37. AvatarAgreeable
    37

    As for EC, for all the loud protestations from some of its authors of how wonderful everything is, there sure does seem to be an awful lot of drama — sordid drama, in fact — over there.

    Amen. So what gives?

  38. AvatarKate Douglas
    38

    Well, it would depend on two things, in my opinion: 1) (does every EC author have access to these loops, and 2) are any other EC authors published or employed by other houses? If the answer to either of these questions is yes, I think removing one author after the blog post in question looks unfair.

    (I hope I’ve got this right–I’m not sure how the quotes work!) To answer Robin’s question, I have books with EC and also write for Changeling Press, an epub, and Kensington Publishing in NY. I also have access to all EC lists, though I remain “no mail” on most of them by choice–except the business list. One thing that does concern me about JC’s being removed from the business list is that she still has a lot of books at EC and company business that affects our books is discussed on that list. She has essentially been locked out of communication that could be critical to her writing career.

  39. AvatarKate Douglas
    39

    Sorry…looks like I did it bass-akwards. The quote is the top portion of my post. Sheesh….putting my computer away now…

  40. AvatarKaren Scott
    40
    Author Comment

    Hey Robin, Scott Carpenter works for both houses, and I bet he hasn’t been booted out.

    So, it would seem that this wasn’t a business decision at all, just petty retaliation.

  41. AvatarAgreeable
    41

    And Agreeable, did you read what I said? (We actually agree.)

    Yes . . . but how pathetic that there are, in fact (and I dare you to deny it), authors with “said company” who have taken it upon themselves to be pompom-waving, whistle-blowing ass suckers. I mean, come on. All diplomatic pussyfooting aside, this in indeed the case.

    And let’s get real. Nearly every EC author has contracts with other companies. It’s simply a smart business practice.

  42. AvatarRobin
    42

    So, it would seem that this wasn’t a business decision at all, just petty retaliation.

    Well, no one has offered an explanation that persuasively refutes this conclusion, that’s for sure.

  43. AvatarShayne
    43

    While I find Jacobs’ behavior to be idiotic and ill thought out, I’m not going to go around calling the woman names. Most likely Jacobs believed she was defending EC. Some of us here have been witnesses long enough to the train wreck of defending a publisher to know that shit doesn’t fly. It’s better to leave the publisher to deal with it. Seems Jacobs missed that memo.

    But I highly doubt there is anybody here that hasn’t shoved their foot in their own mouth and made reactive statements in a knee jerk manner.

  44. AvatarMarissa Scott
    44

    Yes . . . but how pathetic that there are, in fact (and I dare you to deny it), authors with “said company” who have taken it upon themselves to be pompom-waving, whistle-blowing ass suckers.

    Bwahahahahaha! That was so freaking funny, Agreeable, that I was literally LOL and my family looked at me weird. hee! Thanks for the laugh amidst the BS.

  45. AvatarShiloh Walker
    45

    Ya know… some of the writers I know have what they call a ‘rock’. They get under their rock, they write, and that’s all they want to do.

    I’m wondering where I can buy me one of these rocks.

    I want a rock.

  46. AvatarAnn Jacobs
    46

    While I find Jacobs’ behavior to be idiotic and ill thought out, I’m not going to go around calling the woman names. Most likely Jacobs believed she was defending EC. Some of us here have been witnesses long enough to the train wreck of defending a publisher to know that shit doesn’t fly. It’s better to leave the publisher to deal with it. Seems Jacobs missed that memo.

    But I highly doubt there is anybody here that hasn’t shoved their foot in their own mouth and made reactive statements in a knee jerk manner.

    I appreciate the consideration here,Shayne.

    No, it probably wasn’t a good idea for me to post rebuttals to JC’s story on her blog. But the tone of what she wrote, and what she posted on a closed loop of EC authors, was confrontational as well as exaggerated. It was unfairly slanted to put EC’s cover models, and thus EC, in a bad light. If she’d refrained from pointing out her complaints on that list, I’d never even have gone to read her blog, much less respond to what she said.

    But I thought she had it wrong–and I felt strongly that she’d written the blog entry with the purpose of embarrassing EC, by exaggerating and claiming the Cavemen stripped during the Military Tribute at the EC Party Wednesday evening. Why else would someone exaggerate like that?

    As for my comment about her being removed from EC loops (which I’d have done far more quickly if I’d been part of EC management), I simply pointed out that she might have been the only author removed at that time because she was the only one insulting her publisher and so on.

    Obviously, EC has many authors on its lists who write for other publishers. I do, and so do many. Why do we all not get booted from lists? Because we have no conflict of interest. No other author I know of at EC holds down a position that suggests so strongly a conflict of interest. (That includes Scott Carpenter, who writes for EC but is art director at Samhain. Marketing people have a lot more interest, competitively speaking, in learning their competitors’ business than do the folks whose responsibility it is to oversee or do the cover art.)

    Lest you think I have some brown-nose relationship with EC, I have to say that I had serious difficulties with EC’s former publisher, back in 2004. I write for EC and for Changeling Press, and I previously wrote for Berkley and Kensington. When I had that six-month long dispute, I kept it between me and the then-EC publisher. Generally I try to stay away from controversy and just write my books.

    I was trying to be fair, and to point out that JC’s comments seemed slanted and biased against a publisher that has generally been good to its authors.

  47. AvatarAztecLady
    47

    Ann Jacobs

    As for my comment about her being removed from EC loops (which I’d have done far more quickly if I’d been part of EC management)…

    …Because we have no conflict of interest. No other author I know of at EC holds down a position that suggests so strongly a conflict of interest.

    What I don’t get is this: if EC has such an issue with JCWilder’s potential bias, why do they keep her on as an author? I mean, apparently she’s a menace and a huge risk in this high stakes industrial espionage plot, no?

    Oh wait! EC is making money off of JCWilder, right?

    Gee.

    So it’s okay to keep on board a potentially biased author as long as she makes the company money–just keep her out in the yard and don’t let the other kids talk with her; perhaps even use her as a cautionary tale for the rest of them.

    Huh.

  48. AvatarEmmy
    48

    But I thought she had it wrong–and I felt strongly that she’d written the blog entry with the purpose of embarrassing EC, by exaggerating and claiming the Cavemen stripped during the Military Tribute at the EC Party Wednesday evening. Why else would someone exaggerate like that?

    That comment fails to address the fact that nowhere was the name EC mentioned until some jackass posted a comment letting the rest of us know who she was talking about. Ergo, it is highly unlikely that there was an intent to embarrass EC or anyone else.

  49. AvatarRobin
    49

    All I know is that when I see a publisher clamp down on the expression of its authors, it’s like a gigantic red flag blowing proudly in the wind.

    Why else would someone exaggerate like that?

    Different perspectives on the same event? I mean, why is your version (I mean that generally, as in anyone) be the authoritative take? Two people can see exactly the same thing and walk away with very different perspectives. Why the assumption that such a thing didn’t happen here between you and Wilder?

    As for my comment about her being removed from EC loops (which I’d have done far more quickly if I’d been part of EC management), I simply pointed out that she might have been the only author removed at that time because she was the only one insulting her publisher and so on.

    I can only think of the way Isabel Swift treated the Anne Stuart controversy by contrast to what happened here. What that communicated to me, the lowly reader, was a publisher and editor profoundly secure in their own work, in the integrity of their brand, and in the talent of their authors. It was classy and incredibly smart, IMO, and went a loooong way to putting an abrupt end to the blogfire. If only Swift’s example had been more influential.

  50. AvatarCJ England
    50

    Every day I see how important being a professional in all ways is to my career. *sigh*

  51. AvatarRoslyn Holcomb
    51

    When do people have time to write novels?

    @Seressia. I wonder the same thing. Obviously I need a class in time management.

    Male strippers skeeve me the hell out, so had I been at RT and seen them (allegedly) running amok, I probably would’ve had a lot to say as well. I’m just perplexed that the ‘publisher in question’ has (allegedly) sanctioned the reporter, as opposed to doing damage control against the (alleged) misdeeds.

  52. AvatarLori Foster
    52

    Hey Shiloh, one of the many authors at EC I respect, admire, and like lots and lots. :-)
    Staying under a “rock” to write is always a very good idea. I never let these blog-fires distract me from writing. Our #1 obligation (within our careers) is to write.

    To answer the question from Seressia and Roslyn, I usually check the net first thing in the morning while drinking my coffee and coming awake. After about an hour or two (depending on how long it takes me to check my many sites and reply to my many emails) I get busy writing.
    Throughout the day, as I take breaks to let my brain refresh or to eat, I check the net again. :-)
    I can’t imagine any working author would allow the net (blog-fire or not) to take over her writing time, at least not for long.

    In reading all of this, I’m always amazed at those who resort to name-calling. It’s all pretty fascinating, really, and I feel like I’m learning some things from other authors and the publisher being discussed. But I don’t take all I read as gospel, and I don’t judge posters by moments of emotional angst.
    I’ve “been there, done that” with getting too involved to stay detached and professional. We’re all human, after all, and we all have our hot buttons.

    Despite everything being said, the facts remain facts. JC did a recap on the convention. SHe did not launch an attack against anyone. She described actual events, which, if they embarrass anyone, ought to be viewed and considered for future events to ensure they don’t repeat themselves.
    A LOT of people are talking – so why is JC being crucified?

    I don’t need RT or EC to apologize to me. I’ve done conventions (do them every year now) but not on the scale of the massive RT convention. They do a GREAT job overall, and glitches are bound to happen, esp as someone said, on a big anniversary.
    I would, however, like to see EC take into consideration changes for next year, to keep similar things from happening, and perhaps RT could initiate a new policy, and enforce it, about such behavior. If those individuals (or groups) can’t maintain a professional level when hosting their gigs – while still allowing the fun- then perhaps they shouldn’t do them.

    OR… if RT values too much the substantial $s brought n by EC, and doesn’t want to risk alienating them, they should make it clear to one and all what the convention has become so that some aren’t shocked when it happens.

    I will always adore and respect RT. They’ve done so much to promote the industry and support authors. The conference might not be my thing anymore, but that doesn’t detract from my overall respect of the organization and magazine.

    Happy Monday all!

    Lori

  53. AvatarDevon
    53

    Different perspectives on the same event? I mean, why is your version (I mean that generally, as in anyone) be the authoritative take? Two people can see exactly the same thing and walk away with very different perspectives.

    I haven’t read all that much coverage of RT, despite having SBTB open in my browser for days. But I did read a very innocuous comment about the event elsewhere from an author who appeared to enjoy it. Something along the lines of “The Cavemen put on a tribute to 9/11 that had to be seen to be believed.”

    And I gotta admit, I recoiled big time. I squirmed at the thought. Maybe I’m an oversensitive New Yorker, but I just thought to myself that there was no way that could be appropriate. That’s wihout seeing pictures or anything (and I asked for them), but really, c’mon…That’s a good way to honor the fallen?

    So it’s highly conceivable to me that one author could react very differently than another in that situation. To accuse her of nefarious motivations…better back it up. Sorry, being disgusted at a strip show (or whatever–gyrating men) is not a sign of evil. To me, something in such bad taste is quite possibly evil.

  54. AvatarRoslyn Holcomb
    54

    I tend to avoid the blogs when I’m writing, other than the blogs of close friends. It can be too much of a time sink. I try to stay off-line as much as possible, except for answering emails, of course.

  55. AvatarDS
    55

    Perhaps this is one of the places we see the unique business sense of publishers as opposed to other consumer-oriented businesses. IMO, an apology from EC and RT, even if they think they did NOTHING wrong, would have gone a long way, IMO, to make people feel their dignity was valued and would have restored some good taste to what, by MANY accounts, seemed to be a pretty tasteless situation.

    This is one of the smartest things I have read on this thread. If your hair is on fire you don’t try to put it out with gasoline. Digging in behind a barricade and lobbing rocks at the people on the other side only stirs up the mob. I’ve noticed that EC hasn’t made any public statements at all.

    What I really want to know is: did EC hire the models of the artist who posted to complain about EC trying to hire his stable of models without going through him or did they find others from another source? Inquiring minds and all.

  56. AvatarShiloh Walker
    56

    Hey Shiloh, one of the many authors at EC I respect, admire, and like lots and lots. :-)

    awww….blush.

    Thanks, Lori.

    Not in response to any of this in particular, just in general, but once again, I’ve come to the conclusion that if authors can’t respond to things objectively, they really are better off not responding at all.

    Even if it seems an impassioned defense is direly needed, passion clouds objectivity. Without objectivity, a defense very often becomes mud-slinging. One thing I’ve learned from watching political campaigns is that it is hard to stay clean when you go around throwing mud at others. You always end up with some on you as well.

    When it all boils down to it, most people are capable of defending themselves if they really see the need-if they don’t see the need, then maybe there really isn’t a need.

    Sometimes a well-thought out comment can make all the difference in the world, but well-thought out comments rarely include insults, innuendo, insinuations. They involve an objectively stated opinion, usually from a different POV. So if insults are the best a person can manage…well, the mud thing again.

    At the end of the day, I get paid to write. That’s what I want to do, that’s what I’m best at. What other people do, say, scream, dance, whatever, has nothing to do with my writing-unless I choose to let it.

    ;) And now that I’m mostly awake, the kids are at school and the house is quiet, I’m going to do just what I ought to be doing. Writing.

  57. pingback pingback:
    57
    Marianne LaCroix

    [...] the discussion over at Karen’s at http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=1157 [...]

  58. AvatarAnon76
    58

    What kills me is that people think this behaviour by some EC models is a new thing. It’s not.

    At RT St. Louis, I had a ringside seat to some seedy things going on in a ballroom near the end of a party. (I won’t swear it on my soul, but I truly believe it was after the EC party as I recognized the guys involved; they’d been up on stage and introduced as EC models. I DO know none of them were the RT covermodel entrants.)

    Anyway, as the night wore on some people cleared out but a table close to mine got louder and louder. A mix of some EC models and what I assume were new-found groupies.

    Then…the show started.

    A model took it upon himself to give one of the women a lap dance. A frontal lap dance. A graphic lap dance. Far away from the table with a chair positioned so those nearby could see the action.

    Next day I cornered one of the other EC models who I knew to be a stand-up guy and the type that wouldn’t want to see EC’s reputation tarnished by the incident. (Yes, EC has hot books, but there is a certain line when it comes to a public venue.) Well, it seems I wasn’t the only one who tried to report this quietly back to EC, and their take on it? No big deal. (Though the guy I approached seemed disturbed by it. Sadly enough, the next year the stand-up guy was dumped by said publisher. Coincidence? Who knows.)

    So none of this is new, just more people witnessed this year’s hullaballoo.

  59. Avatarkerry
    59

    I would think it was a smart business move on EC’s part to remove someone who is working for a competing publisher at such a high level within the organization from those loops.

    Then why wasn’t she removed when she first started working for the competing publisher? Or given an explanation or an email saying she’d be removed? Why was she removed NOW, after writing about the conference and the inappropriate behavior she witnessed there? Do you REALLY expect anyone to believe that she was removed for business reasons?

    Most of us aren’t that dumb, really.

    I haven’t added EC to my do-not-buy list yet (although they really should do SOMETHING, like someone suggested above – a statement, an apology, something). But I’ve now added one author to my do-not-buy list, and I’m going to try and support JC Wilder now.

    Bad behavior by authors and publishers *does* influence readers. I have a choice where to spend my money and I don’t support companies and people who behave poorly. And I’d wager I’m not alone.

  60. AvatarTawny
    60

    Hi Kerry,

    Then why wasn’t she removed when she first started working for the competing publisher? Or given an explanation or an email saying she’d be removed? Why was she removed NOW, after writing about the conference and the inappropriate behavior she witnessed there? Do you REALLY expect anyone to believe that she was removed for business reasons?

    First, I’m not here to roast JC. I’m trying to make sense of this situation just like the rest of the people here, and share what (little) I know.

    I will repeat that I am a Samhain author.

    I’ve had written communication with Lisa, Marketing Director, and I have had repeated face-to-face encounters with JC at past RT conventions. In fact, I have the most adorable picture of us on my blog somewhere (JC in her tiara).

    But, despite all that, I was not aware of the fact that the JC Wilder I have known for the past several years was also the Lisa I’d been emailing for months.

    Is it not conceivable, that if a Samhain author didn’t know JC Wilder was Lisa, that others didn’t know as well? Like the folks at EC?

    Was I the only one who didn’t know? Why would that be? I’ve never had a personal conflict with JC in the past.

  61. AvatarLori Foster
    61

    I want to say two things very quickly –
    It appears Samhain isn’t worried about espionage, because they haven’t banned JC from anything.

    Also, JC is part of a very special anthology being released in June. All author and agent proceeds will go to the Hamilton Co. YWCA Battered Women’s Shelter.
    JC and I, along with 10 other authors, wrote short romance novellas to go in this special book, being published by my publisher, Berkley.
    It’s titled, “The Power of Love,” with the theme of “the power of love, and the power of women helping women.”
    When I asked JC to take part in this project, and told her that she’d earn 0 dollars for it, she never hesitated.

    So…. if anyone wants to support JC, and support women in need at the same time, this would be a great place to start.

    Hugs to all!

    Lori

  62. Avatarkerry
    62

    Tawny, maybe she thought you already knew? I know in a lot of cases, authors pen names and/or real names are fairly widely known. I admit I find the whole pen name/real name thing rather confusing myself and I seem to always be the last one to figure those things out.

    Lori, thank you for the book recommendation – it sounds like a very worthy cause, and with some great authors to boot.

  63. AvatarLori Foster
    63

    Thanks Kerry. I hope you enjoy it. RT gave us 4 stars, so I’m hopeful that it’ll please a lot of readers.

    Tawny, I usually forget that JC is Lisa. She called the other day (a dear friend of ours just lost her husband to cancer) and she said, “Hey,it’s Lisa.” I was racking my brain, trying to think of a Lisa who would have my phone number. It wasn’t until she said a few more things and I recognized her voice that I made the “duh” connection. :-)

    Lori

  64. AvatarAnn Jacobs
    64

    It doesn’t surprise me that I didn’t know JC and Lisa, the marketing director at Samhain, were the same people. I stick pretty much to my writing. I was surprised, though, that EC’s management was unaware of “Lisa’s” real identity until it became more or less public knowledge at Samhain’s Sunday wind-down party at RT.

    JC/Dominique Adair/Lisa of Samhain are all pseudonyms, if I remember correctly what her real last name is. It seems to me that by not using her real name or one of her existing pseudonyms, she could possibly have been trying to keep it secret that she had taken on a position with Samhain that might have gotten her removed from EC lists if her position had been known earlier.

    Is it not conceivable, that if a Samhain author didn’t know JC Wilder was Lisa, that others didn’t know as well? Like the folks at EC?

    Then why wasn’t she removed when she first started working for the competing publisher?

    EC management wasn’t aware of JC’s alter ego, Lisa, until the last day of the RT convention. In order to be certain Lisa and JC were one and the same, they spent time verifying the information they received before taking the step of removing her from the private EC lists.

    As for JC/Dominique still having books at EC, those books will remain for sale until the contracts for them expire or sales drop to the point that EC takes them out of print and reverts rights to her. An EC author has no obligation to do anything with her already published books other than collect royalty checks after they are released. If she’s no longer actively writing for EC (I have no idea if she is or not), she wouldn’t have reason to remain on the EC loops.

    This is taking up writing time I desperately need, so this will be my last word on the subject. I’m sorry for giving JC more gossip fodder, but not sorry for pointing out that when she said “Cavemen” she effectively pointed the finger at Ellora’s Cave, even if she never actually said the word. She wrote her piece dissing the Military Tribute in a way that claimed the guys stripped during it, and that some actions that may have taken place at other times/places were part of the formal entertainment provided by the publisher sponsoring the event.

  65. AvatarAztecLady
    65

    Ms Jacobs, are you speaking for EC’s management when you say,

    EC management wasn’t aware of JC’s alter ego, Lisa, until the last day of the RT convention. In order to be certain Lisa and JC were one and the same, they spent time verifying the information they received before taking the step of removing her from the private EC lists.

    As for JC/Dominique still having books at EC, those books will remain for sale until the contracts for them expire or sales drop to the point that EC takes them out of print and reverts rights to her.

    If you are, I would really love to know what’s your position there.

    If you are not, then perhaps letting EC’s management speak for themselves would be a wiser move?

    As Shiloh said upthread, they are quite likely capable of defending themselves–if they felt offense was given and/or any public statement is necessary. Otherwise, their actions speak loud enough, methinks (and I would imagine I’m not the only reader who thinks this way either).

  66. AvatarK. Z. Snow
    66

    Psst. Come closer. Have I got a scoop for you all. Oh, boy, hang on to your keyboards, because this is potentially the most sensational e-publisher conspiracy going!

    Ready?

    Treva Harte, founder and owner of Loose Id, publishes with **gasp** CHANGELING! Even uses her own name, that brazen hussy.

    I wonder if she’s going to fire herself when she discovers her own duplicity. Well, that might be a bit drastic. Maybe she’ll just kick herself off the LI loops.

    :-D

  67. AvatarRobin
    67

    The thing that strikes me as so strange here is the seeming permeability of the professional boundary between authors and managers. I mean, I handle a lot of confidential information at work, and I wouldn’t share it with the office staff, not because I don’t like or appreciate or respect or even trust them, but simply because it’s not appropriate and it’s not respectful to those who have confided the information in me. That the publisher environment isn’t like a “normal” office environment makes the permeability more, not less odd to me, because there is theoretically, at least, a lot less reason to confide anything in the authors that relates to the day to day managerial affairs of the business (I would liken it to confiding privileged information in the contracted employees at my job, the food service staff, say).

    Anyway, again, if the boundary is so permeable, what’s the point of booting an author off the loops, as clearly there is not a lot of protection of information that IMO should be confidential. OTOH, it shocks me a bit that the upper management at a publisher wouldn’t know that one of their authors is an integral employee at another major publisher. And if that information is publicized somehow at a major industry conference, it’s hard for me to understand how it would have been kept quiet purposely.

    But still, if things are so loosey goosey at a publishing house that authors know everything, I’d say that publisher has problems managing information that have nothing to do with one of their authors working for another publisher.

  68. AvatarArethusa
    68

    Can I just say that Lori Foster rocks? I haven’t bought one of her books in a while — I shall have to check her website for new releases.

    I did not catch the reference of “Cavemen” = Ellora’s Cave. Me dumb. Also, doesn’t EC have PR people or what?

  69. AvatarKaren Scott
    69
    Author Comment

    Anyway, again, if the boundary is so permeable, what’s the point of booting an author off the loops, as clearly there is not a lot of protection of information that IMO should be confidential.

    My thoughts exactly Robin.

    I think it’s a very dangerous thing for an author to come out and try to speak on behalf of the publisher, because this invariably leads to all kinds of speculation.

    If she’s to be the official spokesperson for EC, then she should say so, otherwise, it leads some of us to assume that EC are happy playing favourites by taking certain authors into their confidence, whilst banning others from playing in their pool.

    However you twist it, it smacks of bad decision making, especially when the ‘unofficial’ spokesperson insists on making things worse by attacking a fellow author.

    Somebody should tell Ms Jacobs that PR doesn’t stand for Public Rimming.

  70. AvatarTreva Harte
    70

    This post is totally Treva the author and not Treva who is representing Loose Id. As you can imagine, it can be very difficult to toe the line ethically when you own a company but also write elsewhere. I try hard to do the right thing although I admit there’s the good possibility I’ll mess up someday.

    In fact I write for Changeling and Liquid Silver Books as well as Loose Id. And I was very upfront about it with the other publishers and my readers — then again, I keep thinking everyone knows who I am and who I am affiliated with, so it would be silly to try to hide it.

    At LI we also have a number of publishers and editors for other companies who write for us or work as editors. Usually they are equally upfront about other affilitions but sometimes I find out after we’ve signed a contract who x really is. But then LI monitors our LI Biz List (authors have their own, totally author-run list at LI which management has no part of) to keep it to business that authors need to know. Other companies are quite welcome to have other policies and practices that suit them.

    Also, I’m a co-owner and co-founder of LI. There are three other partners at LI, some of whom write for several companies.

  71. Avatarqueenbeetrainer
    71

    Usually I just lurk here, but this whole thing has me really irked. I didn’t go to the event, but from the accounting I wouldn’t have wanted to. Publishers want to honor 9/11 victims or the military? Great! Donate the proceeds from a book to one of the plethora of organizations geared for the cause. Showing honor and respect for a group does not, IMO, include a bunch of hunks dressed up in “uniform” groping attendees, dropping F-bombs, and imitating sex.How tacky! Let’s face it, a load of crapped wrapped beautifully is still nothing but crap.

    As far as EC having knowledge of JC’s other job… well, Ann Jacobs must be joking right? I find it hard to believe that EC doesn’t do their “due diligence” before signing an author. Based on this premise, I would say that JC just had her “peepee” slapped for not towing the party line and was taken off the distribution list because of this; not because for any corporate security issues.

    So, what this really leaves me with is this question… who at EC caught it because all their taste is in their mouth and needed a scape goat? You seem plugged in Ann, any ideas?

  72. AvatarShayne
    72

    I was hoping to get that point across, Karen. It has gotten to the point where obviously it isn’t a good thing for an author to come out swinging when somebody says something bad about their publisher.

    Yes, I understand the instinct when you are treated fairly by said publisher, but in the end it has to be left to the publisher to speak for themselves.

    Which is what I was hoping you’d realize, Ms. Jacobs. I’ve seen it too many times on the blogs. It is never a good thing to say much in this kind of circumstance. And it has only made some wonder about EC possibly silencing an author for saying something they didn’t like. Something a lot of us find abhorrent.

  73. AvatarTeddypig
    73

    Treva!

    Don’t go firing yourself. I am sure you would have told yourself sooner if you had thought it was important for you to know.

  74. AvatarLynne Connolly
    74

    I write for several publishers, as many epubbed writers do. It’s the norm in our business, not the exception.

    I write for Ellora’s Cave, Samhain and Loose-Id. As such, I’m privy to privileged information about all three publishers. However, I am not a salaried employee of any publisher, and if I were, I’d make sure my publishers knew that. At one point I edited for Triskelion, and while my readers didn’t know, I made sure that all my publishers knew that.

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but because of the privileged information, I do know that the management at EC weren’t aware that JC Wilder and Lisa Amrine were one and the same person until the last day of the RT Convention. And then it was only a rumour. As a writer, it was interesting gossip. If I were a publisher, I might have looked on it differently.

    Writers are not employees of the publisher they write for. We’re all freelance, and lease our work to publishers. Being a salaried employee is a bit different.

    But it’s none of my business and it will only become my business if it affects the day to day running of the company. I write for three publishers and each delivers with great cover art, great editing and great royalties.
    That works for me.

  75. AvatarLori Foster
    75

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but because of the privileged information, I do know that the management at EC weren’t aware that JC Wilder and Lisa Amrine were one and the same person until the last day of the RT Convention. And then it was only a rumour. As a writer, it was interesting gossip. If I were a publisher, I might have looked on it differently.

    They told you this? EC discussed with you – and who else? – about their “surprise” that JC worked for Samhain? You say it was only a rumor, but you say that you can assure us EC didn’t know (the rumor?) until the last day?
    But you also say as a writer, you found it interesting gossip. I’m sort of confused if you heard all these assurances of EC’s discovery as an interested author via gossip, or if you somehow heard about it because of some priveleged informational inside track you’re on, or… I don’t know.

    It sort of sounds like EC management got on board spreading rumors with the rest of the authors of the publishing house – because until someone got the facts, meaning they got it confirmed from JC – it was just a rumor, right?

    I still can’t see *WHY* EC would care.
    What major, life altering secrets are on the EC loop that will in some monumental way benefit Samhain if JC were the type to carry sensitive material back and forth?
    (When you break it down, the whole theory is pretty laughable, imo)
    I have no experience with smaller presses, so I’m truly clueless about that. But you know, I just can’t imagine anything newsworthy being on an open loop. Authors gossip (you just said so yourself) so surely the really important stuff was kept off the loop, yes?

    Don’t get me wrong – I’m not slamming anyone for gossiping. We’re human, we talk. We all have a best friend we share with, and she has a good friend she trusts, and someone overhears…
    So, assuming EC is run by savvy businesswomen, they would NOT put anything important – any business decisions worth keeping secret – on a loop filled with authors who are bound to gossip and share it, thus ensuring the oh-so-important trade secrets get out.

    So… with that said, I still don’t get why JC was booted off, except that EC didn’t like JC’s (gads, these are alot of initials!) recap of their actions at the convention. Sort of like, once it was spelled out, it embarrassed even them and they didn’t want it discussed so much as forgotten.

    But if I was JC, I wouldn’t worry about it too much.

    Lori

  76. AvatarLori Foster
    76

    Can I just say that Lori Foster rocks? I haven’t bought one of her books in a while — I shall have to check her website for new releases.

    :-) Thank you, Arethusa! I’d much rather you say I rock, than want to hit me with a rock. LOL. Sometimes it can go either way.

    I actually managed to write 17 pages today, despite playing too much on here.

    Hugs,

    Lori

  77. AvatarLee
    77

    Wow…this is driving me nuts. I don’t believe more than half of the people here who have commented even read JC’s blog.

    She didn’t mentioned names…period.

    A commenter did.

    Jacobs on the other hand mentioned the publishers, and told of another scandal I hadn’t heard. And she mentioned the EC model who was taken to the hospital by name and said he had a history of mental issues. And she’s throwing stones at JC?

    Read her blog before she gets over there and erases it.

  78. AvatarRobin
    78

    Writers are not employees of the publisher they write for. We’re all freelance, and lease our work to publishers.

    Which to me means that authors should be even LESS privy to confidential information. Of all business relationships, the independent contractor relationship is the most mutually, well, independent.

    If I were an author it would creep me out that other authors had privileged information obtained from my publisher. And I would be downright deterred from wanting to be associated with a publisher that crossed these lines so casually. We talk a lot about what is and isn’t professional, and a lot of it I see in a gray area at best, but to me it seems unequivocally unprofessional for a publisher to share confidential information that is not the author’s direct and interested business with authors.

    As a disinterested (but not uninterested) observer, I can only say that from my POV the more that comes out, the worse EC looks.

  79. AvatarK. Z. Snow
    79

    I feel left out. EC management never told me about JC!

    P. S. Treva, you are tres cool. So, please, don’t be too hard on yourself for your espionage activities. A public hanging would definitely be over the line.

  80. AvatarKM
    80

    But it’s none of my business and it will only become my business if it affects the day to day running of the company. I write for three publishers and each delivers with great cover art, great editing and great royalties.

    Since when has not your business stopped you from forcing your overbearing opinions on anyone, Lynne?

    Shame those great publishers can’t fix your noxious personality, too.

  81. AvatarSeressia
    81

    This doesn’t make any sense. Y’all have said that numerous authors write for numerous houses. So the burning question is:

    What could JC get off any publisher’s author/marketing loop that would be useful to her alter ego, that any other author can’t get off the loop and share with their publishers?

    I swear, the longer I hang out on the World Wide Web, the stranger the logic becomes.

    I’ve got to go pack for Romance Slam Jam. Hopefully there will be none of teh crazy in Chicago.

  82. AvatarLori Foster
    82

    That was my question exactly, Seressia. It doesn’t make any sense – except that she was booted off as retaliation, period.
    And all because she wrote a recap of happenings at the con. Odd in the extreme.

    Lori

  83. AvatarAztecLady
    83

    Jest saying that this,

    Since when has not your business stopped you from forcing your overbearing opinions on anyone, Lynne?

    Shame those great publishers can’t fix your noxious personality, too.

    doesn’t contribute to any conversation. Unless the point is to provoke, in which case it’s no longer a conversation anyway.

  84. AvatarShiloh Walker
    84

    But it’s none of my business and it will only become my business if it affects the day to day running of the company. I write for three publishers and each delivers with great cover art, great editing and great royalties.

    Since when has not your business stopped you from forcing your overbearing opinions on anyone, Lynne?

    Shame those great publishers can’t fix your noxious personality, too.

    Just scratching my head and wondering exactly what the point of this post was…?

    I don’t know Lynne beyond what I’ve seen in her comments on blog or loops, but she hasn’t struck me as being overbearing.

    Of course, I could be using myself as an example-and next to me, most people probably don’t look too overbearing. What can I say, I love jumping in wherever and whenever.

    Still, I’m not exactly getting the point. Lynne hasn’t done or said anything that others haven’t already said. Why single her out?
    -edited for type-os.

  85. Avatarkirsten saell
    85

    Shiloh,

    I’m sure there’s got to be a long, sordid, extremely personal history behind that comment. Never heard of Lynne myself, but yeah, the reply to her innocuous comment seems like unjustified strafing to me. And just when the conversation was getting interesting, too.

  86. AvatarTeddypig
    86

    Well, you know I was gonna do a whole post on Ellora’s Cave problems. But forget it.

    I did not get any response for four separate occasions now with their ongoing paypal problems.

    NO OTHER ePub USING PAYPAL HAS THESE PROBLEMS!

    So far
    April 19 paypal problem sent three emails still no response.
    February 29 paypal problem sent two still no response

    Now you might think this is a rare occurrence.

    This is simply one of many many many occasions.
    In fact EC is the only ePub I have ever had to talk to the dang customer service department with.

    Here’s the records from my email box…

    11/14/07 paypal problem
    11/12/07 paypal problem
    11/09/07 paypal problem
    10/11/07 paypal problem
    07/06/07 paypal problem
    06/08/07 paypal problem
    02/28/07 paypal problem
    01/17/07 paypal problem

  87. AvatarRosemary Laurey
    87

    the management at EC weren’t aware that JC Wilder and Lisa Amrine were one and the same person until the last day of the RT Convention..

    Both Lynne and Ann have said this in pretty in much the same words.
    I’m amazed to the point of incredulity. It’s not exactly been a secret.
    There are precious few in publishing after all.

    As for axing JC from the EC yahooloops.

    I’m on the EC Biz loop (not on the author chat one, by choice) and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a post that would be off much (if any) help or interest to another publishing company.

    This is all so over the top.

  88. AvatarLauren Dane
    88

    I would like to point out that at the Samhain spotlight at RT in 2007 JC said she was Lisa Armine and worked as marketing director for Samhain. In public. At the publisher spotlight. I was there as were about fifty other people. It hasn’t been a secret. If people didn’t know, it’s not a freaking conspiracy.

    And Ann, this implication that JC’s opinion is somehow invalid or aimed to harm because she works for Samhain is just dirty pool and frankly, beneath comment.

  89. Avatarlaura
    89

    Boy, EC sure is worried about Samhain, aren’t they? Shame Ms. Wilder is caught in the crossfire.

  90. AvatarAnon76
    90

    Just a question that no one here will have the answer to, but bears thinking on.

    All this time, has EC cut royalty checks to JC Wilder or Lisa Armine?

    Granted, even if they cut checks to Lisa Armine, that wouldn’t necessarily mean they knew she was Sam’s marketing director.

    Just looking at this from all sides of the equation.

  91. AvatarNora Roberts
    91

    ~If I were an author it would creep me out that other authors had privileged information obtained from my publisher. And I would be downright deterred from wanting to be associated with a publisher that crossed these lines so casually.~

    You betcha.

    From what I can gather JC reported on HER blog certain activities at RT which she had an opinion about. I think that’s what blogs are for. The same activities were reported by others elsewhere.

    It doesn’t feel like a coincidence that JC would then be kicked off the author loop of the publisher whose cover models reportedly engaged in those activities.

    The ‘horrors, she works for Samhain and must go!’ smells like smoke screen.

    Slapping her for writing about incidents many others have related and complained about seems very small.

  92. AvatarLori Foster
    92

    Wow, Nora posted and everyone went quiet. LOL.
    Can I say that it’s way cool for Nora to involve herself?
    :::waving to Nora::::

    My hope is that with all the fuss being made, RT will make note. They’re such a great group, and the magazine is fab, but the conference really needs some tweaking, and some behavior guidelines need to put into place.

    Lori

  93. AvatarAnon Author
    93

    I wonder if Samhain’s marketing director holding JC up as a shining example on the marketing loop is because she’s a shining example or because she’s…her.

  94. AvatarLee
    94
  95. AvatarKaren Scott
    95
    Author Comment

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but because of the privileged information, I do know that the management at EC weren’t aware that JC Wilder and Lisa Amrine were one and the same person until the last day of the RT Convention. And then it was only a rumour. As a writer, it was interesting gossip.

    I’ve managed to glean the following information:

    Amrine isn’t a pseudonym, it’s JC’s biological name. Changed from when she was adopted. She doesn’t use her real name online for personal reasons.

    She’s not salaried at Samhain, she works as a consultant, the same as any author. She also works for other authors on a consultancy basis.

    I’m told that in the past, Ms Wilder has appeared at numerous conferences on behalf of Samhain, as their marketing director, handing out business cards etc. If EC didn’t know she worked at Samhain, then surely that says more about their incompetence?

    In my opinion, EC can pretend that they aren’t banning her for petty reasons, but I’m pretty sure nobody here apart from the people with the heads up their arses, believe that for one minute.

  96. AvatarAnne
    96

    Sadly this year I did not attend RT but I have been numerous times (5 times). I applauded JC for writing her opinion. That is all it is.Opinion. My friends who did attend called me with the play-by-play action of said “models”. All I can say is we had front row seats for the St. Louis debacle and it was not pretty. Personally if I was EC I would want EVERYONE who represents me to be professional and not acting like someone who works for the oldest profession.

  97. AvatarMoira Luz
    97

    I was there and you have to remember: some of these guys are or have been strippers. They are exhibitionists and they have the morals of that profession. Give them a few drinks and you get something along the lines of what I observed in Orlando a few years ago.

    Two male models were sitting at a table behind me and my girlfriend at a steak house across from the hotel where RT was going on. These two prime specimans of hunkiness were three sheets to the wind and one began discussing how he caught a neighbor’s cat and tortured it…in graphic detail. I got up, told the maitre d’ who gave us another table. He apologized, said he’d been trying to get these two men to leave but they wouldn’t. Eventually they were escorted for the restaurant after another couple (the lady was an author) sat down and overheard them still talking about skinning the cat alive. She, too, complained and was given another table. She later told me she heard one of the men talking about ‘eating the asshole of the cat’ while it was still breathing.

    Sick? You betcha. So what happened in PA was nothing but business as usual for some of these guys.

  98. AvatarCapo
    98

    After all is said and done I really don’t give a rat’s ass if someone was, is are even thinking about being a part of the world’s oldest profession. The courts are clogged by these cases, and I feel it is a waste of public money and jail space that could be used for criminals who pose real threats to communities and lives. And people who torture animals? These jerks, like child molesters and murderers, should be locked away.

  99. AvatarKaren Scott
    99
    Author Comment

    These two prime specimans of hunkiness were three sheets to the wind and one began discussing how he caught a neighbor’s cat and tortured it…in graphic detail.

    That’s just sick.

  100. AvatarDS
    100

    What I am taking away from this is that the male models appearing at the RT convention– some of them any ways since I’ve heard of at least two from the last one being mentioned with approval, are causing significant distress to certain of the attendees and it has just now reached the point where the voices are loud enough to allow those of us who don’t go to know what has happened at the last conference and previous conferences.

    It sounds to me like someone needs to determine how serious this problem is and deal with it. It doesn’t sound like it is driving attendees away, but there may become a day when it escalates to that point. I also think that it wouldn’t hurt to run a background check on the men they hire. Sounds severe but it means you can avoid the obvious trouble makers.

  101. AvatarKayleigh Jamison
    101

    I’ll be attending for the first time next year when the Conference is in Orlando (school prevents me from traveling for the most part, but I’m only 2 hours from Orlando) and if I get groped in any shape or form, or if I overhear talk about torturing animals, there’ll be hell to pay.

    I don’t give a flying flip about not making waves. Of all things I cannot abide, these two rank at the top.

  102. Avatarqueenbeetrainer
    102

    Now that I’m in a position to actually take a few days away from the family for fun I was considering going next year, but I’d have to say after hearing about all this I’m really thinking twice about it.

  103. AvatarAngela James
    103

    Now that I’m in a position to actually take a few days away from the family for fun I was considering going next year, but I’d have to say after hearing about all this I’m really thinking twice about it.

    You’re not the first person to say this, so I feel like the one thing that should be pointed out is that even though people talk about some of the negative things that happened at RT, they also talk about the positive things. It’s like anything, it’s not perfect. People just tend to pay more attention when the negatives are being discussed, because they’re more fun to talk about :P But you’ll notice that anyone pointing out something that might have detracted from the con, also talks about the good things, and they go back year after year. And they’ll be back next year. Most of the people who say they’re not going are the people who’ve never been, not those who’ve experienced the zaniness themselves!

    RT is one of those conferences that’s a totally singular experience. People get different things out of it, come away with different experiences (as I think has been aptly shown). But I think it’s something everyone should attend themselves and really get a feel for, just once, because sure there’s craziness, but there’s also a fabulous, fun sense of community because everyone is there for one reason: the love of romance.

  104. AvatarLori Foster
    104

    Well said, Angela.
    I DID have a wonderful time at the con – in visiting with friends old and new, meeting readers and booksellers, doing interviews, etc…
    I always avoid the parties, which can get pretty wild. That hasn’t changed. It’s been discussed for years.

    I know a lot of people work really hard to pull off a convention of that size, and I don’t mean any disrespect to any of them.

    To me, the problem starts when you bring in strippers for models. I’m not saying it’s all the fault of the strippers, or that they’re the only problem. There were authors and readers behaving in an unseemly way, too. When you have the most risque promo items passed around and shirts that say, “Got Sex?” on half the people, well then, the guys are, in most cases I think, just following what they thought was the tone set by others.

    I’ve thought about this a lot, and for me the biggest problem is that the risque has “overtaken” the rest of the con. There are inspirational authors there, but you don’t see giant banners announcing them. Historical, paranormal, contemporary… lots and lots of authors represented in lots of ways, and many finding offense at things that originated from the erotic-type promo and entertainment.
    I am NOT dissing erotic authors, so don’t anyone accuse me of that. Some of my dearest friends – all class acts – write erotica. But you wouldn’t find any of them involved in the goings-on that caused all the ruckus.

    But how to solve that problem? I’m not the moral police, and a lot of people are apparently enjoying it, or ignoring it, with only a few speaking out. So will next year be even worse? Possibly.

    I don’t expect anyone to change things for me.
    I don’t expect everyone to feel the same way I feel.

    Until I hear that RT has some plan in place to make the atmosphere more acceptable to EVERYONE, I won’t be going again. And yup, I’ll miss it.
    But with media everywhere, I don’t want to be associated with that type of behavior. And some of the readers who approached me at the signing were equally put off, so…
    I’ll do the only thing that *I* can do, and just distance myself from it.

    Lori

  105. AvatarRobin
    105

    If I didn’t know anything else, I’d think that EC and RT were synonymous — in fact, I keep having to remind myself that isn’t the case. NOT because of JC Wilder’s comments, though, but as a general impression after reading numerous comments, posts, and viewing videos and photos of the conference.

  106. AvatarKaren Scott
    106
    Author Comment

    Robin, funnily enough, I’ve been having a hard time thinking of one without the other. I think it’s the Kathryn Falk/Tina Engler connection.

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