“there was NO STRIPPING, crotch grabbing or any other show of disrespect for either the military or the American flag during the God Bless the USA number.”
Friday, May 2, 2008Posted in: Elloras Cavemen go wild at RT
I was forwarded the following e-mail by a number of people a few days ago. It’s basically an assurance from Patty Marks to the EC Biz Loop, telling the authors that the RT stuff that’s been reported around the blogs, is a pack of lies.
I’ve edited out the boring irrelevant bits of course:
…Then our cover models followed up with their dance routines – no, there is no stripping, unless one considers bare chests and six packs stripping – yes, there are some suggestive moves – but, except for the at the very beginning when Christian (who was dressed in construction worker garb) showed his chest and six pack and did a little belly wiggle – there was NO STRIPPING, crotch grabbing or any other show of disrespect for either the military or the American flag during the God Bless the USA number.
The Greased Lightning routine was a bit more risque’, but until recently the only complaints I received was that the routine was slightly too tame – much more tame than last year. (Once again, last year’s routine also involved no stripping – but showed more chest and abs and the dances were more animated)…
The only other complaint I have personally received is the one that has been made very public on loops and blogs and that was expressed over and over and over again by that particular person to whomever was willing to listen.
I suspected another agenda and yesterday was told {K: I bet Ann Jacobs did the telling.} that the same person who is expressing her opinions as an upset author IS AND HAS BEEN the marketing director – using an alias on their website – of the publishing company owned by the person who has filed a suit against EC – which was also “leaked” to blogs well
before we were even made aware of the filing (see biz loop message #21889, dated April 8, 2008) – and introduced herself as such at that publisher’s RT function on Sunday.While not surprised and personally I would like to express my feelings regarding these
highly questionable tactics, as I stated in the aforementioned biz loop message, I will state again: “Please be assured that we will continue to maintain our professionalism and defend our business’, authors’ and readers’ interests.” This will all be addressed in the proper forum.That being said, I do take concerns seriously and I did email
Kathryn Falk regarding the routines and she responded with the following:“Dear Patty
I was not offended by anything I saw. There are always some risque dance movements going on, but most people laugh it off, I hope. I personally enjoy a little “chippendale” action from the guys. It’s fun -and makes people chuckle.
Big John was a joy to have throughout the convention, as was Jason, Sly and other familiar faces from your calendar. They were most helpful and contributed much to the event. You have some very nice representatives that I hope will always be at our conventions.
Your Calendar is such a popular item. I brought back several for some military wives coming to the SOS retreat next month. They asked for them specifically. I hope you’ll bring Cavemen to your party and other events next year. The readers and booksellers would sorely miss your “eye candy” as more than one booklover said to me.
Saluti, Kathryn”…
So there you have it, Kathryn Falk says it’s ok, so all’s well with the world.
Stellar.
Shannon Dauphin
May 2
1:11 pm
*blink*
Wow.
Miz Marks must have turned the wrong page on her Cavemen calendar and thought it was really April Fool’s Day…right?
Anon
May 2
1:12 pm
I hope Ann Jacobs is pretty proud of herself for being such a good ass kisser to the higher ups at EC.
It’s too bad JC is treated with such disrespect becuase she had the “balls” to say the truth.
What the hell is up with epublishing companies and how they treat thir authors? Are authors supposed to be quiet little mouses, sitting in the corner with there mouths shut?
I respect a person more for giving their honest opinion/truth then an author who kisses ass and is blind to the truth.
sallahdog
May 2
1:43 pm
well… I guess there were some mass delusions going on, since I have seen several authors that were there agree with JCs account… Is there any video?
DS
May 2
1:50 pm
These are not the ‘droids you want.
These ‘droids may pass.
AztecLady
May 2
2:36 pm
I am having all sorts of weird shortcircuiting asploding in my brain right now.
Lemme see… something like oh five? six? people–some of them authors, some of them not–have reported the same things that JC did.
Apparently all of them have hidden agendas against EC and are lying liars of the worst stripe.
Further, they are all one person, a person who is
I bet SBSarah is quite surprised to know that she’s in fact JCWilder and Lori Foster.
bam
May 2
3:14 pm
My skin is crawling.
But that could be ’cause of this ridiculous fruit fly infestation.
But… gross.
Throwmearope
May 2
3:37 pm
Kathryn Falk, the arbiter of taste and discrimination doesn’t find this distasteful.
Emmy
May 2
4:13 pm
I wasnt at the con, but I do subscribe to blogs of several authors do did attend, and several expressed distaste for the goings on. So…unless JC has like 20 different blogs with different names and I just so happened to stumble upon all of them, I think it’s safe to say that she wasnt the only one who was unhappy about the display.
Regardless, JC did indeed express her opinion as an author, since that’s what she is…among other things. It’s not polite to boot someone off your loop and then talk about them where they cant see or respond.
Still don’t know why there are people running the biz over there who dont know who JC is. That’s gotta be the most secret non-secret out there. Geez, do those people live in an underground bunker with no outside contact?? Didn’t know Ellora’s Cave was literal, rather than figurative.
Dee Tenorio
May 2
4:18 pm
I’m just cracking up. Really, it’s physically impossible for Chrissy Brashear to be behind every thing that goes wrong for EC. Even with a staff. Not to be one of those raving defensive authors, of course. I’m just saying. Sometimes it’s not the Joker, Batman.
Dee
AztecLady
May 2
4:20 pm
Indeed, one of those secrets everyone knows. Lauren Dane posted here:
Which would make all these claims of ignorance appear to be rather ah unbelievable to the casual observer (that’d be moi).
Unless, of course, Lauren Dane is also JCWilder and SBSarah and Lori Foster and gawd knows who else.
Robin
May 2
5:18 pm
I had that same response, Karen, and only after the first sentence, lol.
As someone who has done spin control for a long time, all I can say is THAT WAS THE WRONG WAY TO GO — wrong on every possible level and in every possible way. From the insulting Kathyrn Falk addition to the ridiculous idea ANYONE would register a “concern” that EC would “take seriously” to the bad reflection coming off of that “Samhain is the devil come to tempt and deceive us” mantra, it’s just so, so bad. Maybe worse than Signet’s initial response to the Cassie Edwards issue. But definitely in the top echelon of the “how not to respond to bad publicity under any circumstances” play book.
And you know the sad, sad thing? This would not have been hard to spin. This would not have been much of a challenge AT ALL for anyone who knows anything about how to manage these kinds of situations. EC actually could have come out of this looking okay. Instead they just keep pushing the knife in and twisting — into their own collective chest, that is. Which, of course, is their prerogative. Although I’m completely disgusted by the way they brush off the idea that people may have found the Caveman behavior objectionable, inappropriate, or even harassing.
Shayne
May 2
6:18 pm
One wonders how they will treat the authors who disagree with their nonsense.
They seem to have no problem kniving Wilder, anybody else worried?
Lori Foster
May 2
6:22 pm
Does Kathyrn Falk know she’s being quoted on a blog, and therefore being pinned to the same target? I’ve spoken with RT staff and was asked to keep our personal discussion out of blogs – which I have. I would never betray a private conversation that way.
I know what I saw, and anyone who wants to call me a liar can. I could care less.
I told RT that this was becoming an EC con, and I see that EC would have that be true.
There are some very classy, very talented authors at EC, but they’ve told me they can’t speak up for fear of retribution. I get that, I really do.
But it’s a shame that so many others want to chime in without knowing the facts, while distorting the facts, and while calling people liars. Very, very sad.
Lori – who is not JC or Ms. Brashear or Sarah.
Lori Foster
May 2
6:46 pm
BTW, I just had to add this. I have no idea if EC is the only publisher who had (what I considered) objectionable stuff there.
One year it was chocolate dildos. Was it EC? I have no idea. My point is that I don’t want to lay all the blame on EC when it could have been other pubs too.
But when there is a wide variety of authors in a room, everything from Inspirational to historical to paranormal to erotica to contemporary – the tone ought to be one that is acceptable to all.
Men wearing shirts that say, “Got Sex,” and talking like sailors among readers is not acceptable.
Condom suckers are not acceptable.
But whe you hire strippers for models, pass out lewd promo stuff, and put no restraints on language, people are going to be offended.
Kathryn might not be. :::shrug::: But I was. I know plenty of authors who were. I spoke with plenty of readers who were.
Lori
Shayne
May 2
6:52 pm
Okay, I guess that answered my question. I can sort of understand why others won’t say anything for fear of retribution. I’m with three publishers myself. They’ve always treated me with respect. For any publisher to treat me with any less would result in me speaking out. And in this case EC is treating Wilder with no respect, irregardless of what exactly happened.
If the ‘Samhain would do anything to ruin us’ argument is the only one EC can come up with, I worry about their PR department.
Shayne
May 2
6:58 pm
Lori,
Then you get into other issues. Condom suckers, shirts with sayings ‘Got Sex’, people cussing, and chocolate dildos don’t bother me. And I’m sure there are many folk it doesn’t bother.
The issue isn’t whether it bothers or not. The issue is EC canning Wilder like they did. Whether it’s because she’s Amrine or because of what she said on her blog doesn’t matter either. The less than professional behavior of EC toward Wilder is at question in this instance.
Lori Foster
May 2
7:21 pm
Hey Shayne, for me it IS an issue. It made the booksigning very uncomfortable for and for others. There should never be a situation where one set of people is favored over another.
There HAS to be a middle ground. Or not. But if not, then I don’t want to be associated with it.
The part about EC booting JC off the loop has been discussed to death. Everyone knows it was wrong and petty. Even those defending that action do so knowing the excuses are not legit, and are in fact laughable.
So I was replying to the top post here, where it’s said that Kathryn thinks it’s fine and fun to have strippers at a writer and reader convention. :-/
I imagine we all have our sore spots on this conflict.
I hate that JC has been treated unfairly, but she doesn’t need any of them anyway, if you ask me.
My bone to pick is that a lot of different authors are invited to a convention without consideration as to what will or won’t offend.
Lori
Shayne
May 2
7:33 pm
Lori,
That’s a really hard bone though. What offends one won’t necessarily offend another. That’s not as easy to answer. Unless RT splits its convention into two types, I can’t see that one being solved. Just me though.
Then you get into precisely what is defined as offensive. Could it be what is in one person’s eyes indecent covers? What is indecent? I’m not sure I’d like to go down that road.
RT would have to take its own stand about what is and isn’t offensive, and what will and will not be allowed. I’m not sure if the organization really wants to take that on either. I think they already know the firestorm that can stir. This is just my thoughts on the matter, and definitely doesn’t reflect those of RT or anybody else.
Robin
May 2
7:43 pm
And why wouldn’t they? I mean, it’s a big boost for EC to have such a prominent, some would say overwhelming, influence on RT. It wasn’t until your post on the other thread that I realized how much I had conflated RT and EC in my impressions of the conference — and merely as an observer after the fact.
IMO it’s RT’s responsibility to set the tone and the character of RT, and whatever is happening, it clearly looks to a number of people like EC has been given an exalted position, looking more like co-sponsor than attendee. Whether that’s — as Karen suggested in the other thread — because of the close relationship between Tina Engler and Kathryn Falk, or because EC is such a large presence, both in the industry and in conference attendance, or for some other reason, as long as the conference is an RT event and not an RT-EC event, RT can endeavor to set a different pace if it chooses. It all comes down to how open RT is to hearing feedback from attendees, because it still their conference — in name, at least.
EC has shown absolutely no interest, IMO, in hearing any feedback on their promo and presence (inclusive of the Cavemen) that isn’t completely positive, so I wouldn’t expect them to tone it down or pull back on their own. Not when they have what looks like tacit approval from RT, at least.
Jo Carol
May 2
7:44 pm
Lori,
The letter was from Kathryn to Ellora’s Cave Private Business Loop for their authors.
Shayne
May 2
7:49 pm
Ya know, I don’t see RT winning this one way or the other. For the first time I think I can appreciate the juggling act they try to handle even if they don’t always make the right decisions.
Karen Scott
May 2
7:51 pm
I can tell you that it didn’t sit well with quite a few of their authors, which is why it was forwarded to me I guess.
Karen Scott
May 2
7:54 pm
The problem as I see it Shayne, is that they’ve allowed one publisher to basically take over the conference. When people think of RT and EC as one, that aint a good sign.
Lori Foster
May 2
8:06 pm
Hi Jo!
Yes, I realize it was posted elsewhere – and I think it was unfair of it to get forwarded around. But if you put anything in a an email, it’ll be out there. Sad but true.
I hope that’s not how Kathryn really feels, that a little “Chippendale action” is a good thing at a professional writer and reader convention, but if it is…
Oy.
As many are saying, it’s a hard road to walk. I KNOW RT wants to be fair and fun for everyone. But how? I don’t have any concrete answers.
However, it’s not as tricky as Shayne might think. For now at least, it IS still RT’s convention, and they can value ALL the attendees by setting standards that are more middle ground. I think most professionals (unless they’re in porn) would agree that chocolate dildos are out of line. LOL
Foul language out of the mouths of models is out of line.
Feigned sex acts on a stage (or in a bar) from conference entertainment is out of line.
There’s nothing professional about any of it.
I would not ask RT to change things for me – it’s their con and they can do as they please. But I can make the decision not to attend. I can separate myself from that behavior.
I think it’s important to let RT know why I made that decision – and I did.
Lori
Shayne
May 2
8:09 pm
Yeah, Karen, I would agree with that. I didn’t equate RT with EC, but I’ve noticed a lot of people are.
If RT chooses to distance from EC so it doesn’t look like RT is in EC’s pocket, I don’t see much of a firestorm over that. (Of course, I could be wrong.) But if RT took on what’s offensive, they won’t win for losing. (I know I’m not wrong on that.)
Just when going into issues of exactly what is offensive, I really don’t see RT winning whatever they would do. That’s what my comment was over. Sorry, I wasn’t clearer on it.
Robin
May 2
8:12 pm
Is this really about the presence of chocolate dildos or is it about the dominance of one kind of promotion and publisher presence at the conference?
I got the distinct impression from reading MANY comments on the event that simply vetting or limiting the presence/participation of the stripper/Cavemen/cover models might eliminate A LOT of the issues — that if there hadn’t been so much line crossing by and around these guys that everything else would have simply been part of the zany conference flow.
Shayne
May 2
8:19 pm
Lori,
Not sure where to start so I’ll just bow out while I’m ahead.
Happy writing.
Karen Scott
May 2
8:22 pm
The thing is, the strippers/cover models have been a huge part of RT for the past few years, it’s just that this is the first year that somebody had the cojones to complain about them.
Robin
May 2
8:40 pm
Which says a lot about how comfortable people feel about complaining about something that obviously — given some of the tales that have been related from other years — has been a problem for a while now. Or perhaps people did complain privately either to EC and RT and their concerns were blown off or discouraged? Although you’d think RT would care about this kind of thing, as their name and the reputation of the conference is implicated.
kirsten saell
May 2
8:52 pm
Looks like someone else is about to get kicked off the loop, then?
Rosemary Laurey
May 2
10:34 pm
Marissa Scott
May 3
1:23 am
The thing about that is, EC doesn’t need Samhain to “ruin” them… they seem to be doing that very well all on their own.
Marissa Scott
May 3
1:24 am
They’ll have to prove it first… oh wait! *slaps forehead* They just “do”
Anonymous
May 3
1:27 am
It’s about tacky, crude behavior that shouldn’t be demonstrated at a “professional” conference and those who take offense to that… those who paid major money to attend that conference and shouldn’t have to put up with blatant sexual displays unless they want to go to a strip club or watch a porno.
Either that or it was the first time they took it beyond harmless fun and into a zone that was beyond uncomfortable. I think people were already disgruntled toward EC but with them using the flag the way they did, it just pushed people over the edge.
Lori Foster
May 3
2:01 am
Shayne, if I offended you somehow, I’m sorry! That wasn’t my intent. Not ever. I’m a big believer that everyone has a right to his/her opinion – which is how I got into all this in the first place, because JC was blitzed for writing a blog about her conference experience.
So anyhoo…
Yeah, I’ve grown uncomfortable with the whole overdose of, as anon said, crude behavior. I DO pay big bucks to attend the RT con, and I feel that, once there, my concerns should be considered the same as anyone else’s.
To those who asked – I have talked with RT peeps (very nice peeps) and I’ve come away with the impression that they DO care what I think and feel about things. I don’t know that in the long run it’ll change anything – which is why I keep reiterating that I’m okay just NOT going again. Majority rule and all that.
But I did want RT to know why I felt the way I did. That’d fall under the category of fair play.
And folks, please keep in mind that the chocolate dildos was a few RTs back. Not this one.
My concern this conference was the crude language, the bar groping, and the condition of the hotel. I’m told that RT was assured, right up until the last minute, that the hotel would not be an issue. There’s no helping it if the conference chairs were out and out lied to by the Hilton.
Other things I’ve heard about, but I’ve heard about them from a lot of reliable sources, not anonymous folks. So…
You know what really got me today? That EC is discussing all this, and Katheryn Falk is commenting, on an EC loop from where JC Wilder was booted.
:::shaking head::::
Lori
Robin
May 3
2:35 am
Assuming Falk has access because she’s a Lotus Press author, that still doesn’t get rid of that pesky conflict of interest charge, does it? In fact, it just makes the whole thing look that much more discriminatory and arbitrary. And it certainly solidifies the EC – RT link (as if the whole Lotus Press thing didn’t do that already).
Anon too
May 3
5:26 am
I’m dying to know who saw the simulated sex acts. I keep hearing about it, but everyone’s just talking about it. Whoever actually saw it happen, speak up! I’d love to hear your firsthand account of it. Anonymous or no, be honest. What happened, where, what did it look like, and did you REALLY see this or is it secondhand info?
BTW, I am SO not an EC supporter, but I keep hearing rumor and I want FACT.
Lori Foster
May 3
12:49 pm
Anon, I know several women who saw it, but they’ve been harrassed so badly for speaking up, that they’ve since washed their hands of it and are mum.
I don’t blame them really. When an author gets involved in this kind of thing, it can really suck the time away from her writing – especially if she feels attacked.
I don’t, so it doesn’t bother me.
Lori
Anon76
May 3
1:32 pm
Anon Too,
I cannot vouch for anything at this year’s RT as I was not there. However somewhere else on this blog (I’m horrid at links) I did explain what I witnessed at the St. Louis convention: Basically, an EC model giving a public lap dance to an attendee. A frontal lap dance. And in all reallity, a long, drawn out, dry-hump lap dance.
Shortly after, someone else came forward to say they witnessed the same thing.
My point is, I have no trouble believing the accounts being related regarding this year’s conference since I’ve witnessed such public displays myself. And yes, EC was notified, and no, they didn’t feel the episode an “issue”.
confused...
May 3
1:55 pm
maybe it’s just me but isn’t this the type of stereotyping romance writers/fans DON’T WANT TO HAVE?
if every RT is going to basically be a longer versions of a bachelorette party with strippers and parties then no one can complain about the romance genre having a bad rep…
while I was intriqued by the workshops offered I decided not to attend for a few reasons: first, the price was expensive considering I didn’t want to attend the parties and those were automatically included. I’m happily married and really didn’t see much in going to parties sans hubby.
it’ll be rather hard to defend the romance genre with this sort of behavior going on…
Shannon Stacey
May 3
2:13 pm
Not that it’s really relevant, but just for clarification, I’ve never seen Kathryn Falk post on any of the EC loops. (I have no idea if they have a Lotus loop.) She sent that message to Patty and it was Patty who shared it with us.
Anyway, I have no dog in this fight, having never been and having no plans to go to RT, but I just wanted to say that it’s not like Kathryn Falk’s chattin’ us up on the EC lists.
(Again, I don’t know if there’s a Lotus list.)
Lori Foster
May 3
2:41 pm
Hmmm… Well, JC has said she’s done with all this too, and I can’t blame her. For whatever reason, she’s taking the brunt of the blast from EC and then, by connection, RT.
But in her blog accounts, she mentions the simulated sex scene on April 18th. Anyone curious can scroll back from her blog and check it out.
CONFUSED – that’s my feeling exactly! I don’t feel the need to defend my genre, never have, but that doesn’t mean I want to partake of things that perpetuate the bad rep. Aside from being a professional and not liking how it reflects on the romance genre, I just thought it was all very high schoolish. Young women who haven’t matured and haven’t learned about consequences often behave in ways they later regret. Too much drink, too much groping of strangers, too much loose talk, etc…
Mature women with families are supposed to know better.
But if it’s offered, then I suppose there’s always an element that’ll accept.
SHANNON, I think it was clear that Patty took a personal note sent to her, and shared it on a loop. I have no idea if Kathryn is okay with her doing that or not. Personally, I’d be pissed. But then, I know that ANYTHING in email is bound to make the rounds.
I HOPE Kathryn was just trying to keep the peace. She strikes me as a very kind person who wants to keep everyone happy.
But by sharing that note from Kathryn and making it more or less public domaine, Patty dragged Kathryn into this mess.
You know, I started just by detailing my own problems with this year’s RT convention, and explaining why I wouldn’t be attending again, at my blog at http://www.runningwithquills.com
Then I jumped in a few other places when my friend JC Wilder was accused of lying about things that I had seen too, and having ulterior motives, and other crazy things.
In the midst of all that I spoke with RT and found out that, regardless of what the hotel told me, they had not cancelled my reservation. The hotel was SUCH a pit that I believe them capable of that. The Pittsburgh Hilton was closer to being condemned than remodeled, and the restaurant staff were ridiculously uncooperative.
Also, when I spoke with RT, I got the feeling that they sincerely cared what every attendee thought and wanted to try to address all concerns.
Anyhoo…
Now it feels like what should have been a few blogs discussing disappointment over parts of the con, (something that happens EVERY year) has turned into a two sided conflict – with EC and RT on one side, and those who experienced it on the other, being called liars.
I’m not sure if RT intended to take sides, but that’s what it’s come down to.
By RT claiming they didn’t see any “bad” behavior, they’re backing EC. HOW they didn’t see some of this stuff, I’ll never know. The bad behavior was a teeny tiny part of my overall blog, but now, dang it, I feel I need to defend my words with more and more blogs and explanations.
*Some* EC authors have reacted so badly to the few blogs, that they themselves have brought the blinding negative spotlight down on EC and its practices.
It’s all nuts.
I’ll say again that I enjoyed several parts of the convention. Finding out that RT wasn’t responsible for cancelling my hotel reservation makes me feel oodles better. I regret that I believed the hotel and accused RT of doing that.
But that alone doesn’t change what the convention has become. Lots and lots of peeps seem to like the atmosphere, so more power to them.
But it’s not my thing.
Happy reading all,
Lori
Lori
Shannon Stacey
May 3
3:03 pm
Sorry, Lori. Must have misunderstood when you said:
You know what really got me today? That EC is discussing all this, and Katheryn Falk is commenting, on an EC loop from where JC Wilder was booted.
Going back into my “I write for both publishers” cave now.
Lori Foster
May 3
3:08 pm
Shannon, that was my sloppy sentence structure that caused the confusion. My fault.
I meant: That EC is discussing all this on an EC loop from where JC Wilder was booted.
and then…
And now Kathryn Falk is commenting on it.
I just threw it all together and shouldn’t have.
Here’s another thought – why aren’t JC’s friends also booted off the EC list? I mean, they’re telling her what’s said, of course, and it’s not nice. Backstabbing stuff like this just burns my behind.
So if EC is truly worried about JC using sensitive material, wouldn’t they need to take it one step farther and remove all of her pals (she has many) as well? Otherwise, in this giant conspiracy, the friends will just tell her the sensitive material and she’ll have been booted for no reason.
It’s all very chickenpoo to me.
I have such respect for most authors – many, many EC authors included. But EC and their practices have really given me a new perspective to contemplate.
Lori
Anon too
May 3
4:08 pm
“Anon, I know several women who saw it, but they’ve been harrassed so badly for speaking up, that they’ve since washed their hands of it and are mum.”
I understand that, Lori, but I’d like to hear the true details even if they remain anonymous. I haven’t heard a single account of someone who actually saw it happen. But maybe I haven’t been reading the right blogs. Right now everything I’ve heard is she said that she said that she said…
Anon as well
May 3
4:27 pm
Ditto. I was there and I didn’t see anything of the kind. My main thought after the Mr. Romance competition was that there weren’t enough bare chests! The 9/11 tribute was respectful (and boring) and the “Grease” routine was fun but not enough.
I don’t suppose RT would object if another publisher stepped in and sponsored a big event or two. Dorchester does its bit, and does well by it – theirs was one of the most enjoyable parties of the week. EC does the first party. So there’s room for more.
Lori Foster
May 3
4:42 pm
If I still have emails, I’ll cut and paste without saying who said it. But I don’t know if I do. My email is so heavy – like over 200 a day – that it might be like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Never thought it’d come to this, ya know? If I had, I’d have saved them in a file.
I think a lot of people had different experiences, and that’s all well and good. What bugs me is that very reputable people are being labeled liars, just because someone didn’t see what someone else did.
I’m off to write for the rest of the afternoon, so… later!
Lori
Laura
May 3
5:09 pm
I had a front row seat at the Cave party in question. This was my first RT in many, many moons so I was new to the scene. I didn’t pull any strings to sit at this table- just arrived with a girlfriend, saw a few Cave authors sitting at the table, and asked if they had two seats available. My friend and I sat and watched.
To tell the truth, I was disappointed in the show. I had heard of the naked, oiled, men and didn’t really see that. One number was a tribute to 911, I sang along (with many of the crowd) to “I’m Proud to be an American”. I know the men were introduced too.
Some of the show is a blur to me because an obnoxious woman who literally stood in front of my table with a video cam, saying she was recording it for Tina/Jaid Black was filming. I could have missed the mock sex thing because her gigantic body/head was in the way!
I didn’t hear anyone complain about the show the entire time I was there. I’m just a reader and was quite shocked to find out all the mayhem that went on behind the scenes when I returned home. Now I wasn’t on the floor with the models- I did hear from several people who WERE on those floors that they could hear sex sounds from the rooms- but hey, I figure if it goes on behind a closed door, is it really my business?
I can understand that some of the older women (over 55+) may have been shocked but really what do you expect from a company that was built on sexuality and romance? I wouldn’t expect a floor show like the one I seen at the Cave party to have happened, at let’s say, the RT luncheon? I believe there is a proper place for everything.
I wasn’t groped by any of the men there. No one I spoke to (believe me, I’m a talker and met PLENTY) didn’t have such an experience. I feel bad for any woman- even if it was just one- that had that happen. I didn’t hang in the bars or outside the hotel- I was too tired – so I can’t comment on that either.
I did go to the EC publishers spotlight and voiced my concern about the tame program. I asked where were the oiled men, etc. Some of the EC authors that post here will probably remember my comments. I honestly see more sexuality in PG13 rated movies (or higher) than what happened at the floor show.
My response to all this is- don’t go if you are offended. I feel that the Mr. Romance competition was more racy in the sexuality it portrayed than the EC show.
What I saw at RT was a clear dictomony. The old vs the new. I am young, I don’t read Harlequin or tamer books, I LOVE MY SEX! I’m not ashamed to admit it, but I don’t go pushing it on others too. I feel that there is a place for both to co-exist under the umbrella of romance.
One final word- if sex doesn’t sell and people (even older demographics) are that interested, then why was the Safari party thrown by Sasha White, Vivi, Delilah, and Sylvia Day, and one other lady, the most attended non-roomed event at RT? Those $14 paperbacks were FLYING into willing hands. You should have SEEN the lines for them.
Robin
May 3
5:33 pm
Chocolate dildos, glow in the dark condoms, even vibrator pens wouldn’t bother me one bit. I am most definitely not a prude about sex and sexuality and have no morality issues with strippers or even prostitutes (but seriously, if some were uncomfortable with the level of sexual behavior or feel harassed in any way, IMO that’s a TOTALLY VALID concern, since sex is NOT, as I understand it, supposed to be the main focus of RT, and no one should feel harassed). But that story from a previous year about the tortured cat? Pushed me right over the edge from thinking of this whole thing as ‘another glaring and annoying example of publisher assitude’ to ‘is this what the publisher is embracing and my reader dollars indirectly funding?’
Susanne Saville
May 3
6:54 pm
I didn’t go to the EC party, so I have no first-hand info on it. But this mention of torture of animals totally freaks me. Was it a cover model who said this? Was this person reported and fired from EC?
I am going to be a member of the Faery Court next year and there is no bloody way we’d let any inhuman monsters into our costume party. If this person is still with EC I’m sure we’d all want him barred from RT.
Capo
May 3
7:46 pm
These publishers use female models for cover art too, right? Maybe I’ll go next year if there’s some bare chested female models. For the sake of equality. Hell, I can round up a whole posse of guys to attend if these ladies show up. If asked politely, we might even be persuaded to oil ‘em up. We’re helpful that way.
Nonny
May 3
8:03 pm
I didn’t go (finances… bleh), but I have to say that I wouldn’t be bothered by language, chocolate dildos, stripping, etc… however, the first guy to grope me without my permission is going to get a taste of SING.
Lori Foster
May 3
8:10 pm
LOL, Capo! Good point.
You know, all of you who say you wouldn’t be offended by the x-rated stuff… it’s not about what would or wouldn’t offend you as an individual. It’s about consideration for a crowd of about 700 (I think) and EVERYONE should be considered.
If it’s to be a porn con, say so.
But if it’s a reader event, then it should be understood that not all readers will appreciate that.
Somewhere in society we’ve lost common courtesy.
And yeah, I’m old, if 50′s old. But I don’t think that’s it.
I’d have been equally offended at 20, 30 or 40.
Lori
Capo
May 3
8:40 pm
Completely OT: Lori Foster, is that you in that New York Times bestseller collage image at your website? Come on over to the Cumhitherglobal blog and leave us your blog addy please?
Kayleigh Jamison
May 3
8:51 pm
Lori,
I’m 28, and anyone who’s read my books would be hard pressed to call me a prude.
I would have been offended beyond measure by at least some of the goings on. And as I said earlier, any man tries to grab at me without permission, he draws back a nub.
Anon
May 3
9:12 pm
I attended RT and saw the party. The 9/11 tribute would have been less offensive if they had chosen to say MILITARY TRIBUTE.
Many people died that day. It should not be commemorated by grinning men shaking their hips and dancing. A moment of silence, a somber song, yes. Dancing? I think not.
I also saw the mess with the flag. Yes, it bothered me.
For every person that was not offended, there was one that was. A middle ground seems a far wiser choice. Perhaps a warning what could be expected would have been polite.
There is one anon’s report.
Schdir
May 3
10:35 pm
About the animal torture allegations: The comment stated that the incident was a few years back in Orlando. The last Orlando RT conference was in October 2002. EC did not have a party or any models at that convention. RT has had cover models and the Mr. Romance competiton at the convention many years prior to EC even being in existence. There are also models sponsored by individuals, maybe other publishers and some who come to the convention to promote themselves for book covers.
The comment about the cat began (and the following is cut and pasted):
“I was there and you have to remember: some of these guys are or have been strippers. They are exhibitionists and they have the morals of that profession. Give them a few drinks and you get something along the lines of what I observed in Orlando a few years ago.”
Pardon me that I didn’t block the quote in – I don’t do much posting – I mostly lurk.
I have been attending RT conventions as a reader way before EC even existed and I have become a big EC fan over the past several years. I save my money to attend RT – it’s my big vacation every year. I had my picture taken with the EC models – the money goes to the MS foundation – and I got my autographed calendar while I was there. I have fun, not only at the EC party, but at other parties, too.
I am a fan of many other authors, too. I totally resent that at least one of my (now former) favorite authors basically feels the need to make me feel embarrassed for wearing my Got Sex tee shirt that I paid money for because I wanted it. Oh – and by the way, I also noticed that the EC cover models did NOT wear Got Sex tee shirts at the conference this year. I’m looking at my picture with them and they say Men of Ellora’s Cave.
d
May 3
10:43 pm
The RT peeps had no problems swiftly dealing with one complaint of “inappropriate, explicit” promo material at last year’s RT — Houston 2007. And that complaint allegedly didn’t even come from an attendee.
Lori Foster
May 3
11:52 pm
Capo – yes, that’s me… about 4 years ago. LOL. I’ll try to get over to whatever addy that was you posted. Thanks.
Kayleigh, I was reacting to what Laura said – about the “older” crowd being offended. I am older, and I was offended.
Schdir, if I’m the “former” author you’re referring to, I had it verified by RT staff that some of the Cavemen did in fact bring *back with them* “Got Sex” T-shirts from previous years. So yup, some of them had them on, just maybe not in the photo you have.
It’s not my intent to make anyone feel guilty! Folks, I keep saying – keep on keepin’ on! Do you own thing. Have fun however you want.
I’m only explaining why *I* don’t want to be there.
And I’m defending the people who saw things that others are denying – because I saw them too.
I am not (for the millionth time) the morals police. I worry about my own behavior, not anyone else’s.
And truthfully, the “Got Sex” tee wouldn’t have been all that offensive if it hadn’t been accompanied by a pretty foul potty mouth during the signing.
Unfortunately, I wasn’t only one offended.
But it seems that the offended people don’t matter, as long as everyone is allowed to do whatever they want.
Ugh. It’s been a long day!
Lori
Trista
May 4
12:37 am
I don’t normally post on blogs like this but here it goes.
I was there for the sex scene, about ten feet away and had a perfect, unobstructed view. It WAS NOT during the official party but after, while everyone was dancing. Yes, he laid her on the floor, on her back, on the stage, and moved over her. He never touched her and stayed about 12 inches off her body. He did put her hand on his chest and at the waist band of his pants toward the end of the dance. HER TOP NEVER AT ANY TIME CAME OFF!!!! Let me make that clear. I’m not sure where that came from or where JC got that idea. IT NEVER CAME OFF!!
As for the tribute. I don’t get it. Again, I was up front, had a perfect unobstructed view. Did not see anything that was in any way offensive with the flag. No one took off their shirt, no one thrust their hips. Nothing. It was only during the Grease tribute that the dancing got a little more risky. If you can call it that.
During the show, and I wish I had taken a picture of it, there was a massive line of women across the middle of the room trying to get a better view and take pics during the EC show. It seemed there were more people enjoying themselves than there were people who were offended.
Anon requested an eyewitness so I posted my eyewitness account. I did take a pic, but it came out really bad. The lighting in the room was terrible. I wish it had come out, it probably would have come in handy…:(
I’m not easily offended, so it’s hard for me to understand all the ruckus. I just laughed it off. No one touched me unappropriately, and as for language, I didn’t hear anymore bad language than I hear at any other event. Some people spout off four letter words as if they’re nothing and that’s just normal for them. Should they tone it down at a conference? That’s a debate I don’t want to be in the middle of.
Susanne Saville
May 4
1:07 am
Thanks, Schdir, for clearing that up. I couldn’t find the original post containing the allegations (not sure I really wanted to, either) and I was worried.
I just totally cried at the tragic end of the Kentucky Derby, so, as you might imagine, animals in pain are a hot-button subject for me.
Thanks again!
Robin
May 4
1:30 am
Oh, yes, you mean this controversy. You kind of start to wonder how many people will still be attending RT a few years from now.
A little OT, but I don’t think people realize how intrinsically dangerous (some would say cruel) horse racing really is. Horses don’t develop fully (growth plates, bones, muscles, etc.) until around the 6 year mark (depending on the breed), and most of these horses are racing at 2 or so. Many bleed into their lungs because of the pulmonary stress. They’re shot up with coritsone, thin bones pin fired, and stallions stalled so long that they can develop psychological habits of cribbing (chewing) and weaving (sounds like what it is). And the less money the horse’s owner can invest in him/her, the worse it often is — and it can be much, much worse.
DS
May 4
2:33 am
I think that a post that was linked to the Open Source Boob controversy might have some relevance here. It’s long so I won’t quote it, but it mention something from in person S&M/B&D events– that the people who are bystanders at a scene should also give explicit consent because they are still involved as much as the participants.
I’m probably about Ms Foster’s age. I’ve seen lots of things far more graphic that crotch grabbing or even stripping– I lived through the disco age, I lived through penis cakes, I lived through strippergrams. And years ago I would probably have dismissed the discomfort of other people as well.
However, as I’ve grown older, I’ve grown more sensitive to the feelings of other people. That is what courtesy is after all. Anything that was part of the schedule of the convention and that was paid in any part with the money of the attendees should have been kept extremely inoffensive. If there’s going to be “Chippendale action” then people should be made aware of it and offered some alternative amusement– have a Regency Cotillion– or EC could host the entire party out of its pockets as an erotic romance event with a clear statement about what could be expected to happen.
Take a hint from the sf conventions where the more outre stuff is kept to special rooms.
Jane
May 4
2:46 am
It disturbs me a bit that anyone who would suggest that the Cavemen were in poor taste is somehow a prude. I think Ms. Foster has it right that if it is a “porn con” then just come out and say it. I think authors who strive hard to get their books differentiated from “porn” would probably not attend a porn con.
It’s not that naked oiled chests are wrong, but wrong for the setting. If this is supposed to be a legitimate book con with authors and readers coming together, then the focus of the con should not be about naked male chests because that furthers the perpetuation of the negative stereotypes surrounding romances.
I would love to go to a reader/author con and I think I will attend the next Celebrate Romance which sounds like that it is truly invoking the spirit of RT. Books, books, and more books. That’s what is bringing me together with other romances, not our mutual admiration of a naked man.
Lori Foster
May 4
2:27 pm
Couple of things:
Completely OT: Lori Foster, is that you in that New York Times bestseller collage image at your website? Come on over to the Cumhitherglobal blog and leave us your blog addy please?
Capo, visited your blog and it’s very entertaining! Thanks for telling me about it. But I didn’t see any place for me to leave info, so let me know again what it was you wanted me to do. I’m at lorilfoster@gmail.com
DS, my sons are 27, 23 and 21, so still young adults, but they’re very aware of what is common courtesy. Actually, they’re all pretty terrific heroic type guys. Trust me, they are NOT prudes. LOL. Um… no. But they understand that some behavior should be private, or shared with a defined audience. They behave differently with their guy friends than with a girl, or with their father and me, or at our big family reunions.
There are – or should be – social dictates about respecting everyone in your realm.
But anyhoo… I really appreciate your and Jane’s posts, and want to clarify something.
The EC party was separate from general gatherings. No one had to attend it. I didn’t. I was far too swamped with other biz-type things – yeah, I always mix bix with pleasure (more biz though) at these type events.
The problem is that the private affairs (like the EC party) sort of spill over into the rest of the convention.
What I witnessed was after private parties – or maybe before or during, but not IN the private parties – with folks carrying on the lounge area, the bar, the restaurant, the elevators, etc…
It is VERY uncomfortable to be in a cramped elevator with people groping each other behind you. Things were said that should only be said in private. Things were done that should only be done behind closed doors – or with folks who signed on as voyeurs.
Quite honestly, there were even smells involved. Sweet, especially. Maybe from a vigorous activity prior to getting on the elevator? I dunno. I didn’t want to think about it too much.
I keep harping on this, but my sense is that the tone of the convention is dictated by what goes on in those parties, and SOME of the promo material that is handed out.
Bookcovers should always be accepted. How else can an author sell her book? But do the covers have to be accompanied by sex toys and condoms and such?
It’s almost like a shock factor thing, as if the book alone isn’t enough or something.
I don’t understand it.
I can’t totally blame strippers who were brought in for the delectation of women – who were then openly fondled by women – when they lower themselves to foul language and displays.
My guess is that they were following the tone set by some.
And hey, they’re STRIPPERS. They have a routine they likely follow to keep female audiences happy. Unless there were strict instructions up front (I don’t think there were) how were they to know what was and wasn’t appropriate or acceptable?
At this point, I’m pretty sure their impression of romance authors and readers is NOT my impression from all the lovely authors and readers I’ve met.
I think it was up to the party coordinators, and overall, RT, to offer up clear guidelines that would be strictly enforced.
But the more I hear, the less I think that’s going to happen.
The conference brochure should say, “Warning: there probably will be lewd behavior at private parties that spills over to general functions, which could include explicit public displays of lust, hardcore promotional materials, and drunken obnoxiousness.”
At least then, we’d have a clearer idea of what we’re in for.
Not to make this post uber long, but I have a yearly event with my best friend, Dianne Castell, that only costs $35 – to cover meals of a Friday night pizza party with colas, a Saturday continental breakfast and a Saturday lunch buffet. If someone stays over, rooms are $99 a night. Dianne and I cover the cost on everything else.
We have over 100 authors attending, a ton of industry professionals including NY editors and agents, many smaller press publishers, book buyers, publicity people and more.
Everyone has a great time. We sell lots of books, meet lots of readers, network bigtime, chat and take photos and play games and do raffles – and there’s not a single sex apparatus (ala promo item) in evidence.
This is my and Dianne’s way of thanking the community – readers and authors alike – for being wonderful.
It is MY and Dianne’s event, so we take responsibility for what may or may not make others uncomfortable. So far, no problems. Everyone is considerate and enthusiastic. We’ve grown over the years from 100 attendees the first year, to now around 250. (This is our 4th year.)
Oh yeah, we have basket raffles, and donate the proceeds. Last year we gave over $4000 to my local Battered Women’s Shelter. This year we have a benefit book with all proceeds going to the shelter, so our raffle $s will go to a local school for children with spina bifida and cerebral palsy. It’s called The Conductive Learning Center.
This isn’t an advertisement – just letting folks know that if you want to come meet a lot of fun peeps, registration ends May 19th. Info is on my website – lorifoster.com – under the community link.
Happy Sunday all!
Lori
Throwmearope
May 4
4:07 pm
Mrs. Giggles gives a preview of next year’s RT con here.
anonone
May 4
6:48 pm
Aha! So we should go to your convention instead of RT? I wondered where all this was coming from because your description is so different to what I saw at RT that I thought you were describing a different event!
Not a chance. I’ll stick with RT.
Lori Foster
May 4
7:34 pm
LOL.
I certainly didn’t intend to twist anyone’s arm. It’s common on the net to let interested romance readers and authors know of ALL events available.
Is every conference or reader event advertised trying to steal from other events? Nope.
My and Dianne’s event is at a totally different time from RT, and is set up totally different. We charge only for meals, and donate all proceeds.
We don’t offer workshops or the like, and we’re not trying to compete with RT in any way.
If you choose to think I instigated a huge conspiracy, lied about my experience at RT, and then slipped in news of a different event just to finagle more registrations, that’s your perogative. Anon, right? No name while calling me a liar?
:::shrug::::
Happy Sunday all!
Lori
Trista
May 4
7:52 pm
I’ve been to Lori’s event twice and it’s a nice event.
The thing about these events is…hmmm how to put this. RT has models. If you take those models and add an open bar and a dance floor and put them in Lori’s conference, I guarentee you would have the same problems. That’s what happens when you put men and women together in an event like this. Unless you’re standing over them with a whip, you can’t control their behavior.
You know it happens every year and you complain, than turn around and go again the next year. It’s not going to change. Next year there will be yet another round of complaints. Someone was offended, someone acted inappropriately. If you want conservative, safe, then go to Lori’s event (It is alot of fun, I’m not putting it down). If you want a little more, then attend RT. It’s as simple as that.
Don’t repeatedly put yourself in the middle of the controversy then turn around and complain about it. You knew it would happen.
Nonny
May 4
7:55 pm
Trista said: “That’s what happens when you put men and women together in an event like this.”
I respectfully disagree. I don’t think it’s fair to paint all men with the same brush as these models. For instance, my husband is also a romance writer, and he’s never behaved inappropriately at any event that we’ve attended. I can’t see him ever doing so, either. I know a few other men that I can say the same for.
Yes, I know that they are in the minority. But they do exist.
Lori Foster
May 4
8:00 pm
Hey Trista! I’m glad you think it’s nice and I hope you’ll be back.
You couldn’t be more right! They are two very, very different things – and I was in no way trying to compete. I wasn’t the least offended by what you had to say.
You know, I think I’ve been to 5 RTs, and this is the first time I’ve complained. I don’t know if it’s because the things that bother me are getting more pronounced, or that the pit of a hotel just pushed me over the edge, or the fact that some were called liars for saying they’d seen the same things I had.
(I keep getting called a liar, and dang, that just keeps the controversy going.)
Doesn’t matter.
I agree lots and lots of folks will go to RT and have a blast! Some will LOVE the things I didn’t like.
Some will not like the things I most appreciated.
This is why I said RT doesn’t owe me an apology. It is what it is, and I have the choice of not going.
I think with so many events out there, there’s always something for everyone.
Lori
Trista
May 4
8:52 pm
Yes, it’s true. There’re not all like that. But I guarentee, there’s always one in the crowd that is.
But I didn’t mean to say men in general, I meant to refer to the models and just said men.
And Lori, I do plan on getting back up there at some point…:) If gas will ever go back down…:)
Lori Foster
May 4
9:14 pm
Where are you coming from, Trista? I’ve had folks ask me to move our event around, but Dianne and I keep it local to us.
The price of gas is enough to deter anyone who has far to travel.
On the models – I believe there were some very nice guys there. I know lots of people to refer to Rodney as a shining example of a gentleman model.
Lori
Trista
May 4
9:19 pm
The blonde Christopher was very nice too. I can’t remember what his last name was though.
I’m coming from Tenessee. I think when I came before it was about a 4 to 5 hour drive for me. Which isn’t too terribly bad.
It’s hard to coordinate something like that from far away. I don’t blame you for keeping it local…:)
GrowlyCub
May 4
9:41 pm
Trista,
I am driving up from Winchester, TN (northwest of Chattanooga) if you want a ride.
Lori Foster
May 4
10:20 pm
Lots of folks are car-pooling.
And there IS still room for others to register, but we’re currently running into an overflow hotel (across the street and very close) so contrary to what the anonymous person said, I’m not angling to twist arms here. Just letting folks know.
Now that I’m done writing for the day, I guess I’m stewing over being called a liar yet again. Like I have time to start a huge conspiracy against RT, all to get more folks at my event, even though I have twice as many registrations this year as last year, and it costs me out of pocket big time since Dianne and I foot most of the bills on everything, and I don’t make a dime off anything. ??? Uh, no.
Unbelievable, what folks will say while staying anonymous.
Oh! I almost forgot. For you ladies more southerly, Lora Leigh has an event called RAW. Sept 19th, in Huntington WV.
I’ll be new to it (if I can go, still checking something) but I’ve heard raves from lots of readers and authors who attended last year.
Lori
Trista
May 4
10:30 pm
Lora’s event is alot of fun.
Growly, thanks for the offer. I’m in Monterey though. Would that be backtracking for you?
Anon too
May 4
11:55 pm
Thanks to those who replied to my question. Not hearing any eyewitness negativity, but I’m glad to hear from anyone who had a view.
I enjoyed RT despite the hotel and the resulting increase in difficulties with asthma, but that wasn’t RT’s fault. I talked with Jo Carol Jones, the convention director–I don’t get how she does it all. I pay tribute to her. Back to the subject–the hotel told RT it would be renovated by last summer.
Get this. In what I consider a union city no less, the hotel chose the lowest bid from a non-union company. WTF? Were the hotel idiots out of their F’N minds? So that’s why the hotel was a pit.
Lori, I’ve only heard good things about your event.
Lori Foster
May 5
1:42 am
Anon, I heard the same from Jo Carol. She said right up until the last minute, they kept swearing things would be done. She had to have been SO frustrated to get there and see that mess.
I think RT should really get after the corporate headquarters or whatever/whoever – about getting a reimbursement for some of the stuff they paid for.
My only eyewitness stuff was in the signing, elevators, and lobby/bar/restaurant viewings. I mean, about bad behavior.
There’s no dispute about the shape of that hotel.
Glad you’ve heard nice things about my small, informal event. We try.
Just finished a re-watch of Cloverfield. (We saw it in the theater when it first came out.) Those things in the subway were TOO creepy! Egads.
Lori
Trista
May 5
2:22 am
I saw that movie and ended up with Vertigo…LOL It was good though.
I came home with a sinus infection after RT from all the construction dust. The Service was so much worse. I don’t think I’ve ever stayed at a hotel that had service that bad. I’ve sent in complaints in writing both to the hotel and the main offices. So far no response.
Throwmearope
May 5
2:43 am
Trista, I attended a conference a few years back at a Hilton under construction. Well, they called it remodeling, but I’ve seen demolition crews that caused less havoc. All the Hilton had to say was, “There’s no good time to remodel.” After I bounced out of bed in my skimpy night attire to find a construction worker on a scaffold grinning and waving at me, I did get a room in the half of the hotel not yet under construction. Hilton didn’t care at all about our complaints.
But the ladies who organize the conference promised no more Hiltons, and they haven’t used the chain since.
Anon too
May 5
3:06 am
I checked out your event page, Lori, and it looks pretty cool. I thought about signing up but I’m really not crazy about having to stay at overflow hotels. I like to be in the middle of everything and go up to my room if I need to. Lazy that way, I guess.
Jaynie
May 5
8:59 am
That’s why it is cool to go to RT with a group of friends. I was so busy having fun that I didn’t notice most of the crap that is being talked about.
…and now all the talk of chocolate dildos has made me really want chocolate *sigh*
Lori Foster
May 5
12:06 pm
Trista, sorry for the sinus infection. I’ve had two sinus surgeries because of infections that go to my ears and oftentimes bronchittis. Now I get two allergy shots a week too. It’s getting better.
A lot of folks came home sick from that.
Maybe it WAS a good thing I wasn’t in the conference hotel.
Anon, if you’re interested, you can check to see if there’s an opening. As cancellations happen, they open up rooms.
I need to drive by there today to see exactly how close the overflow is to the conference hotel. Hotel staff told me it’s “right across the street” but after what happened to poor Jo Carol, I’m not taking any chances! LOL
One person’s idea of “close” is another person’s major hassle.
Jaynie, the best way to do RT, or any conference, is with friends! It’s like an extended friends’ day out.
I went this year because of my best friend, author Dianne Castell. Unfortunately, her husband’s cancer took a drastic turn for the worst, and she was unable to make it. He lost his 2 year long battle with cancer not long after the conference ended. Very sad and tragic.
Lori
Trista
May 5
1:02 pm
That is sad. I’m so sorry.
Please tell her she’s in my prayers.
Nora Roberts
May 5
5:35 pm
~I can understand that some of the older women (over 55+) may have been shocked ~
Statements like this just piss me off. What, women reach a certain age and become dried up prudes? It’s insulting.
I didn’t want to watch a bunch of half naked oiled guys gyrate at my PROFESSIONAL writers convention at 35.
Nora
GrowlyCub
May 5
8:24 pm
Nora, surely you aren’t a day over 35?
All kidding aside, I’m 37 and I understand that certain risque sexual overtones have always been part of RT with the cover models in attendance. That, besides the outrageous price and the less than interesting (to me) panels, has always been the reason I’ve never attended RT and have no intention of doing so in the future.
If I go to a conference for readers, I want to talk to authors and other readers, not take pics of myself with some romance cover stud who wouldn’t give me the time of day if he didn’t get paid for it. I have more pride than that! Other people’s mileage varies, obviously.
As non-attendee I can only go by what I’ve read in the various online venues and have heard in the past. I think everybody needs to make up their mind if they will want to attend this conference (again) in the future.
This decision has nothing to do with being too old or too prudish or anything else. It has to do with what each of us enjoys and what we consider appropriate for a conference that touts itself as a reader and as a professional event as well.
And before somebody tells me I’m an old prudish spinster, I’ll have you know I’m married and love to read erotica, the hotter the better… There!
GrowlyCub
May 5
8:28 pm
Trista, if you can meet me in Nashville, I’d love to have company to ride with me the rest of the way! I plan on going up on Thursday, though.
Let me know if you want to try to coordinate. GrowlyCub@yahoo.com
Trista
May 5
9:14 pm
<>
That’s you.
I myself am 41 and I love to see half naked guys gyrating at my PROFESSIONAL writer’s convention. Everyone is different. If you don’t like it, don’t go. Just like I’ll never go to those boring as hell RWA conferences. (No offense to RWA, I’m just more of a party girl)I prefer the other and therefor attend the other.
Does’t mean I should be looked down upon just because I like that.
Nora Roberts
May 5
9:32 pm
I never said anything about ‘looking down’ on anyone who enjoyed the RT conference. Don’t put words in my mouth. I said, very clearly it wasn’t for me.
I don’t like it. I don’t go. So no need to advise me.
I don’t consider a professional conference a party. Though I believe fun can and is had at professional conferences. I don’t consider RWA boring, and do find your comment insulting. Gee, no naked guys gyrating, so it’s boring.
Your opinion is yours, and your preferences are yours. I think that’s fine. But the scenes described don’t make for a professional conference, or a professional image for the genre, imo.
I don’t want to be groped or watch others groping. I don’t want to watch a strip show or ‘chippendale’ type behavior at my professional convention. I don’t want a lap dance or to witness any level of mock sex in public. I sure as hell don’t want to end up giving an interview to the media when they’ve been giving chocolate dildos at an event.
Those who do have every right to make that choice.
Those who don’t should not have to be insulted, consistently, by being called prudes, old, or have their preferences termed as boring.
THIS is what pisses me off. Not the tone of RT, not the choices made by attendees. But the smug, snotty attitude of those who consider those of us who don’t like it out of step.
Karen Scott
May 5
9:47 pm
And neither should anybody look down on people who don’t like that. I think that’s the point that people are trying to make here.
Trista
May 5
11:54 pm
The attitude in which Nora expressed her opinion is what insulted me. I wasn’t the one who said old people or people who didn’t like that kind of stuff was a prude. I said if you don’t like it, don’t go.
The blog is turning nasty again, so I’m pulling out of it. I have books to write, future RT’s to plan for, and women to offend…:)
Ah, so many gyrating men, so little time.
Karen Scott
May 6
12:12 am
Why? Because Nora disagreed with the tone of your post?
I hardly think that constitutes as nasty Trista. You called RWA boring because apparently you’re a party girl who likes to have fun, basically insinuating that people who prefer RWA are boring.
In the same post you argued that just because you like hot nekkid men, and you like to have fun, that nobody should look down on you for it. Do you see the irony here?
It really annoys the hell out of me, when people bail out of a conversation, proclaiming that things are getting too nasty for them. Especially when there’s no evidence of such.
You’d have been better off not responding at all, if you truly felt things were taking a nasty turn.
Jaynie
May 6
1:41 am
I’ve been reading with interest since I can sort of see both sides, and I’m in the “doesn’t really bother me camp cos I ignore it all anyway” camp. The comment above from Nora Roberts interests me because I was always under the impression that RT was mainly a readers conference. I thought that was why the tone was different from RWA which is totally a professional writer conference.
I do know that writers are vastly outnumbered at RT so I guess I just never thought of it as a writers con. I guess as a reader I never considered how a writer would feel about the whole thing from a professional stand point.
…and I really don’t have a point. I just wanted to see if I could figure out how to do the block-quote thingy
Lori Foster
May 6
2:01 am
RWA is a writers’ con, RT is a readers’ con.
And you know, I think we can all agree to disagree on what is and isn’t appropriate, acceptable, fun, entertaining, whatever.
We all don’t have to have the same opinion.
What bugs me is when someone calls me a liar, or attaches ulterior motives to my accounting of things.
Both Jo Carol and Carol Stacy called me, and I have a VERY nice chat with each. They were apologetic that I got booted to the Omni, and that I felt uncomfortable.
They were, imo, sincere in wanting details of what made me uncomfortable. Neither of them called me a liar or accused me trying to sabotage them for my own gain.
They saw some different things from what I saw, and I saw some different things from what they saw.
I disagree with the idea that erotic romance and erotica authors & readers all like the “Chippendale action.” I know too many of them who feel EXACTLY as I do.
So it’s not about who writes what, or what “goes” with what genre, or who is old or fun-loving or whatever.
It’s just about a personal view of what’s appropriate.
I don’t think much of it is, and so I won’t go to the convention. I don’t expect (or need) ANYONE to apologize to me for the tone of the convention, but I also don’t want anyone to expect me to apologize for feeling the way I do.
And I really don’t like anonymous people making outrageous accusations at me.
BTW, Carol said they had 1200 attendees – a record breaking number, I think. That, on top of the disasterous shape of the hotel (which they say they were promised would be back in shape) probably added to some of the chaos.
Nora and I are on pretty much the same page.
Lori
Nora Roberts
May 6
2:24 am
I don’t get why my attitude was objectionable. I responded to a post stating that the ‘older’ attendees would probably be shocked. As if the age of attendees was the factor, or even a factor. If you’re old, it’s shocking, if you’re young it’s cool, or fun, or no big.
That’s insulting, imo, particularly since I wouldn’t have found the activities reported to have been cool or fun or no big at any age, at a professional event.
Yes, I think RT is primarily for readers. But I also believe many readers come to meet authors. As I said before RT is free, and should be, to do anything they wish at their event. Readers and authors are, and should be, free to attend. I’m free to say I wouldn’t care for it, and elect not to attend.
No, Trista, you weren’t the one who made the comment about age or prudes–ergo I wasn’t responding to you in the post you found objectionable.
You elected to respond to me, claiming to “love to see half naked guys gyrating at my PROFESSIONAL writer’s convention”. And adding “Just like I’ll never go to those boring as hell RWA conferences”.
So looking at my posts and yours it’s pretty easy to see who has the attitude and edges toward the nasty.
Nora Roberts
May 6
2:28 am
Jaynie, I guess my thoughts were if I attended a con, as an author, I’d consider it a professional event for me. Despite the fact that it’s primarily for readers, I’d be there as an author, representing my work and the genre. That’s how I’d feel about it, so I wouldn’t want to be a part of what’s been reported to go on during the con.
Others feel differently. I’ve got no problem with that.
Professionalism « The Not-so-deep Thoughts
May 6
2:30 am
[...] or authors unknown forwarded a private Ellora’s Cave memo to their contracted authors to Karen Scott. Now, I have no issues with people stating their opinion. (In case you haven’t noticed, I [...]
Lori Foster
May 6
2:56 am
Nora, that’s my feeling exactly.
It WAS professional for me, and if I’m there, I’m almost guilty by association.
My presence says that I approve of the very things I objectd to. I was videotaped quite a bit. I kept imagining something showing up in the video that I wouldn’t want there – as you said, the chocolate dildos or condom suckers.
To anyone who enjoys that and wants that associated with them – not a problem.
I don’t think it makes anyone a bad person, but it’s not my thing.
Lori
Shiloh Walker
May 6
2:57 am
Jaynie rarely has a point-says Shiloh who loves the blockquote thingy.
Warning….long post ahead….
man, I’ve been staying out of the latest dramas. I got too much going on, not enough hours in the day, and this is mostly falling under my category of - not worth the time/headache/obsessive blog watching category. I’m trying to moderate myself.
Trista, just my two cents here, but, to me, Nora’s post didn’t come off as anything but irritated at somebody’s implication that age has much of anything to do with the various reactions to RT.
Age has nothing to do with it. It’s a matter of personal taste. Too much of this drama boils down to personal taste. Some people are trying to make it out like an us versus them or them versus us type of thing. It’s not. Only the individual can decide what’s right for them.
Those who aren’t bothered by the dancing? Hey, that’s fine for me.
Those who were? That’s also fine. But those who were offended feel their personal opinions aren’t being respected-most people aren’t saying risque stuff should never, ever happen-they are just saying if it is going to happen, they’d like to made aware in advance so they can decide whether it’s the ideal place for them to be. That’s reasonable.
The deal with RT being a reader con-yeah, I’d have to agree there. It is more a reader con than a writer con, but we also have to remember that readers aren’t all going to expect the same thing. What bothers one reader won’t bother another. They are all different-they all have different likes and dislikes.
It makes it a tricky thing, and a potential minefield.
Best way to navigate it, IMO, is giving people the info they need in advance, make sure they know what to expect. The racier happenings should take place behind closed doors/ in a ballroom/ etc and attendees should be made aware in advance what’s going to happen behind those doors. That way, those who aren’t into the sexy dance routines aren’t placed in a situation where they feel uncomfortable.
Now, regarding how I see this, I can easily flip around. Those who aren’t bothered by whatever (the sexy dancin, risque promo items, fill in the blank)-say you signed up for a party titled MOMENTS OF GLORY, you go in expecting a sexy show and what you get a long, in depth talk on the beauty of inspirational romance (not knocking inspirationals, please don’t think I am). You go in expecting one thing, you end up with another and considering that sex and religion are two things guaranteed to spark intense reaction, it’s not a surprise that some people who weren’t prepared get a little upset/uncomfortable/offended. Whatever tag has been given to the event isn’t necessarily going to offer the information needed for an informed decision, unless it’s serious blunt.
Most people aren’t into being uncomfortable-if they know something is coming that might make them uncomfortable, then they can make the choice to attend or not. That’s the beauty of informed decisions.
The Oversexualization of Romance | Dear Author: Romance Book Reviews, Author Interviews, and Commentary
May 6
10:00 am
[...] regalia and later one of the cavemen simulating a sex act with a woman. (Note, according to a pro-Caveman commenter and author, Trista, the stripper remained a whole 12 inches away from the woman at all times while simulating [...]