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	<title>Comments on: A whole new level of WTF-ery</title>
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	<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/</link>
	<description>The book crazy blogger who has an opinion on everything, from Britney Spears to the global economy</description>
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		<title>By: vein</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27971</link>
		<dc:creator>vein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27971</guid>
		<description>While I am not personally in support I would note that similar laws have been proposed for other creative professionals--for example visial artists.  Sometimes a painter will sell a work for a few hundred dollars and speculators end up reselling it for millions.  Then there are cases like Bettie Page who got a few dollars for her work at a flat rate--the photographer went on to get rich off it, literally--never paying her an extra dime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I am not personally in support I would note that similar laws have been proposed for other creative professionals&#8211;for example visial artists.  Sometimes a painter will sell a work for a few hundred dollars and speculators end up reselling it for millions.  Then there are cases like Bettie Page who got a few dollars for her work at a flat rate&#8211;the photographer went on to get rich off it, literally&#8211;never paying her an extra dime.</p>
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		<title>By: Moira Luz</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27970</link>
		<dc:creator>Moira Luz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27970</guid>
		<description>I was going to correct Charlee&#039;s name, too, Brenna. It&#039;s Charlotte Boyett-Compo. She&#039;s a legendary ebook author, a brilliant writer and I know this because I was one of her editors back in the day. She&#039;s always been involved in helping her fellow authors so it doesn&#039;t surprise me she started a group to help slow piracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to correct Charlee&#8217;s name, too, Brenna. It&#8217;s Charlotte Boyett-Compo. She&#8217;s a legendary ebook author, a brilliant writer and I know this because I was one of her editors back in the day. She&#8217;s always been involved in helping her fellow authors so it doesn&#8217;t surprise me she started a group to help slow piracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Brenna Lyons</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27968</link>
		<dc:creator>Brenna Lyons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27968</guid>
		<description>Let me start at the beginning and work through...which means this might be a little long. 

The idea of royalties for library lends of print books is a European one, as Keri mentioned. Sorry, Sparky...it is much more common, worldwide, for authors to get these royalties than not; it&#039;s just not common in the US. They already have the system overseas for libraries, and some people wish the US did, as well. I suspect they don&#039;t realize the problems inherent in taking it to used books. I can pass on that whole system (libraries and USBs, as well), as an author, believe it or not. It would be a nightmare to change over, and I have bigger fish to fry. 

Misi is not entirely right, IMO. I don&#039;t think the print book will ever disappear. I&#039;ll skip all my reasons why, but I have my reasons for it. e-Books aren&#039;t about destroying the print market. They are about choices for readers.

HOWEVER, she is right about how the copyright laws apply to e-books. In addition, DRM brings the Millennium Act into play. e-Books ARE licensed software, though they are book software. For more information, try these links...
http://bittenbybooks.com/?p=3151
http://brennalyonsden.blogspot.com/2008/12/how-pirates-hurt-writers.html  (complete with links to a few other articles)
http://jude-mason.blogspot.com/2008/12/e-piracy-what-it-is-and-how-it-hurts-us.html

Sorry again, Sparky. Stopping the copying of IP (intellectual property) materials has been illegal under simple copyright for well over a century. The USB issue has nothing to do with copying anything. That&#039;s why it&#039;s an expansion of rights...one that I will note again I&#039;m not for, at this stage of the game. 

Anne! You have your head on straight. Thank you for mentioning the efforts to curtail piracy. I should also mention that print authors are not immune to this, since OCR scanners are being used to pirate print-only books as e-books. I&#039;m sure Charlotte/Charlee will be ecstatic that you&#039;ve noticed what we&#039;re trying to do. 

Joanne, I actually cover how the sale of used DVDs and CDs differs from the sale of used e-books in my articles. It does differ, even if the e-book started out on a disc, but you are right that there is no more problem with selling a used DVD than selling a used print book...and shouldn&#039;t be.

Brenna</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me start at the beginning and work through&#8230;which means this might be a little long. </p>
<p>The idea of royalties for library lends of print books is a European one, as Keri mentioned. Sorry, Sparky&#8230;it is much more common, worldwide, for authors to get these royalties than not; it&#8217;s just not common in the US. They already have the system overseas for libraries, and some people wish the US did, as well. I suspect they don&#8217;t realize the problems inherent in taking it to used books. I can pass on that whole system (libraries and USBs, as well), as an author, believe it or not. It would be a nightmare to change over, and I have bigger fish to fry. </p>
<p>Misi is not entirely right, IMO. I don&#8217;t think the print book will ever disappear. I&#8217;ll skip all my reasons why, but I have my reasons for it. e-Books aren&#8217;t about destroying the print market. They are about choices for readers.</p>
<p>HOWEVER, she is right about how the copyright laws apply to e-books. In addition, DRM brings the Millennium Act into play. e-Books ARE licensed software, though they are book software. For more information, try these links&#8230;<br />
<a href="http://bittenbybooks.com/?p=3151" rel="nofollow">http://bittenbybooks.com/?p=3151</a><br />
<a href="http://brennalyonsden.blogspot.com/2008/12/how-pirates-hurt-writers.html" rel="nofollow">http://brennalyonsden.blogspot.com/2008/12/how-pirates-hurt-writers.html</a>  (complete with links to a few other articles)<br />
<a href="http://jude-mason.blogspot.com/2008/12/e-piracy-what-it-is-and-how-it-hurts-us.html" rel="nofollow">http://jude-mason.blogspot.com/2008/12/e-piracy-what-it-is-and-how-it-hurts-us.html</a></p>
<p>Sorry again, Sparky. Stopping the copying of IP (intellectual property) materials has been illegal under simple copyright for well over a century. The USB issue has nothing to do with copying anything. That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s an expansion of rights&#8230;one that I will note again I&#8217;m not for, at this stage of the game. </p>
<p>Anne! You have your head on straight. Thank you for mentioning the efforts to curtail piracy. I should also mention that print authors are not immune to this, since OCR scanners are being used to pirate print-only books as e-books. I&#8217;m sure Charlotte/Charlee will be ecstatic that you&#8217;ve noticed what we&#8217;re trying to do. </p>
<p>Joanne, I actually cover how the sale of used DVDs and CDs differs from the sale of used e-books in my articles. It does differ, even if the e-book started out on a disc, but you are right that there is no more problem with selling a used DVD than selling a used print book&#8230;and shouldn&#8217;t be.</p>
<p>Brenna</p>
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		<title>By: Dorothy Mantooth</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27967</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorothy Mantooth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27967</guid>
		<description>Ditto what Anne Brighton said. If we stopped ebook piracy, publishing on the whole would be in much better shape. Remember it&#039;s not just ebooks that are pirated; new harcovers and ppbs are scanned and online within hours of sale. It&#039;s time for the industry and for the government--in the form of law enforcement--to get involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto what Anne Brighton said. If we stopped ebook piracy, publishing on the whole would be in much better shape. Remember it&#8217;s not just ebooks that are pirated; new harcovers and ppbs are scanned and online within hours of sale. It&#8217;s time for the industry and for the government&#8211;in the form of law enforcement&#8211;to get involved.</p>
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		<title>By: Kat</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27961</link>
		<dc:creator>Kat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27961</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;one day there will only be e-books and all you’ll get is a license to read, not ownership&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I don&#039;t think point is invalid. At the moment, there&#039;s no legal way to resell ebooks, so for all intents and purposes, what we buy is a license rather than outright ownership.

Like Marianne McA, I think the subscription model is worth trying, whether royalties are paid upfront when a book is added to a subscription service, or taken out every time the book is read, or paid yearly when the subscription service opts to keep the book in its catalogue. Sort of like a virtual library, or a DVD rental company (do they pay royalties?). Currently, my university library subscribes to databases that store back issues of academic journals. Maybe something similar could be done for books?

Also, I haven&#039;t seen it yet to judge how well it&#039;s working (because it&#039;s in another state), but one of our bookstores has a print-on-demand service for books. So if you couple this with a subscription service, it gives everyone the best of both worlds (print option, and cheaper overall cost per book via subscription, with decreased risk for publishers).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>one day there will only be e-books and all you’ll get is a license to read, not ownership</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think point is invalid. At the moment, there&#8217;s no legal way to resell ebooks, so for all intents and purposes, what we buy is a license rather than outright ownership.</p>
<p>Like Marianne McA, I think the subscription model is worth trying, whether royalties are paid upfront when a book is added to a subscription service, or taken out every time the book is read, or paid yearly when the subscription service opts to keep the book in its catalogue. Sort of like a virtual library, or a DVD rental company (do they pay royalties?). Currently, my university library subscribes to databases that store back issues of academic journals. Maybe something similar could be done for books?</p>
<p>Also, I haven&#8217;t seen it yet to judge how well it&#8217;s working (because it&#8217;s in another state), but one of our bookstores has a print-on-demand service for books. So if you couple this with a subscription service, it gives everyone the best of both worlds (print option, and cheaper overall cost per book via subscription, with decreased risk for publishers).</p>
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		<title>By: Lynne Connolly</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27960</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynne Connolly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:13:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27960</guid>
		<description>Piracy as it stands is about making two where one existed before. At least it does in books.
So if you photocopy a paperback and give it away, you&#039;re guilty of piracy. If you copy an ebook and give it away, then you&#039;re pirating.
Not strictly true in the letter of the law, but I&#039;m happy with that rule as it stands. It works. There&#039;s also &quot;fair use,&quot; which allows you to backup your books. I&#039;m not sure how the law stands on that, but I&#039;m not risking losing all my books in a hard drive crash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Piracy as it stands is about making two where one existed before. At least it does in books.<br />
So if you photocopy a paperback and give it away, you&#8217;re guilty of piracy. If you copy an ebook and give it away, then you&#8217;re pirating.<br />
Not strictly true in the letter of the law, but I&#8217;m happy with that rule as it stands. It works. There&#8217;s also &#8220;fair use,&#8221; which allows you to backup your books. I&#8217;m not sure how the law stands on that, but I&#8217;m not risking losing all my books in a hard drive crash.</p>
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		<title>By: joanne</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27959</link>
		<dc:creator>joanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27959</guid>
		<description>Why should printed books be treated differently from any other commodity?  Should we pay a painter or sculptor every time we view their work?  What about the sale of used DVD&#039;s and CD&#039;s?  Should the library or bookstore pay whenever they read aloud for children&#039;s storytime?  Surely the lowliest kitchen gadget, automobile, major appliance, article of clothing, or any other patented or copyrighted item came from the imagination, ingenuity, and hard work of an inventor, artist, or designer originally.  They make back their investment on the original sale.  What happens after that doesn&#039;t really concern them.  How would that work for swapping websites like PaperBackSwap?

It&#039;s not as if reselling old books is somehow a new phenomenon.  I&#039;m sure people have been reselling used books since Gutenberg.  The only thing that&#039;s changed is the internet.  Last time I was at Borders, it was jam-packed, so it&#039;s not like people aren&#039;t buying new print books.  This whole thing sounds silly and greedy.  Way to turn off the book buying public!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why should printed books be treated differently from any other commodity?  Should we pay a painter or sculptor every time we view their work?  What about the sale of used DVD&#8217;s and CD&#8217;s?  Should the library or bookstore pay whenever they read aloud for children&#8217;s storytime?  Surely the lowliest kitchen gadget, automobile, major appliance, article of clothing, or any other patented or copyrighted item came from the imagination, ingenuity, and hard work of an inventor, artist, or designer originally.  They make back their investment on the original sale.  What happens after that doesn&#8217;t really concern them.  How would that work for swapping websites like PaperBackSwap?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not as if reselling old books is somehow a new phenomenon.  I&#8217;m sure people have been reselling used books since Gutenberg.  The only thing that&#8217;s changed is the internet.  Last time I was at Borders, it was jam-packed, so it&#8217;s not like people aren&#8217;t buying new print books.  This whole thing sounds silly and greedy.  Way to turn off the book buying public!</p>
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		<title>By: Keri Arthur</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27958</link>
		<dc:creator>Keri Arthur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27958</guid>
		<description>Shiloh said: BUT…I do know that whatever Ninc has planned isn’t something that’s never been done-down in Australia (I think) authors do get some percentage of used books sold and books in circulation via library systems.


Here in Australia, the government compensates us for books borrowed from libraries, but not for second hand books. I really don&#039;t see how second hand sales could be monitored--there&#039;s just too many avenues for reselling.

I do wish Amazon wouldn&#039;t resell books on the very same page as new books though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shiloh said: BUT…I do know that whatever Ninc has planned isn’t something that’s never been done-down in Australia (I think) authors do get some percentage of used books sold and books in circulation via library systems.</p>
<p>Here in Australia, the government compensates us for books borrowed from libraries, but not for second hand books. I really don&#8217;t see how second hand sales could be monitored&#8211;there&#8217;s just too many avenues for reselling.</p>
<p>I do wish Amazon wouldn&#8217;t resell books on the very same page as new books though.</p>
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		<title>By: Shiloh Walker</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27957</link>
		<dc:creator>Shiloh Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27957</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read up on Ninc&#039;s stand on this, mostly because I know what it&#039;s like to be broke and needing books.

I do wish that Amazon would stop their method of selling used books right there on the new book&#039;s page.  it wouldn&#039;t be that fricking hard for them to set a &#039;used&#039; bookstore.

I&#039;m definitely more worried about the pirating of books, both ebook and print, especially since I just tabled one series and I&#039;ve made other decisions regarding what I&#039;m doing for my ebook publishers starting in 2009.

BUT...I do know that whatever Ninc has planned isn&#039;t something that&#039;s never been done-down in Australia (I think) authors do get some percentage of used books sold and books in circulation via library systems.

Regardless of what Ninc&#039;s stand is and why, I can&#039;t support something that&#039;s going to hit the book industry in a bad way-the book industry is already on shaky ground. I worry that the changes they want could impact those who sell our books.  I don&#039;t want that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read up on Ninc&#8217;s stand on this, mostly because I know what it&#8217;s like to be broke and needing books.</p>
<p>I do wish that Amazon would stop their method of selling used books right there on the new book&#8217;s page.  it wouldn&#8217;t be that fricking hard for them to set a &#8216;used&#8217; bookstore.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m definitely more worried about the pirating of books, both ebook and print, especially since I just tabled one series and I&#8217;ve made other decisions regarding what I&#8217;m doing for my ebook publishers starting in 2009.</p>
<p>BUT&#8230;I do know that whatever Ninc has planned isn&#8217;t something that&#8217;s never been done-down in Australia (I think) authors do get some percentage of used books sold and books in circulation via library systems.</p>
<p>Regardless of what Ninc&#8217;s stand is and why, I can&#8217;t support something that&#8217;s going to hit the book industry in a bad way-the book industry is already on shaky ground. I worry that the changes they want could impact those who sell our books.  I don&#8217;t want that.</p>
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		<title>By: Marianne McA</title>
		<link>http://karenknowsbest.com/2008/12/28/a-whole-new-level-of-wtf-ery/comment-page-1/#comment-27956</link>
		<dc:creator>Marianne McA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:25:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://karenknowsbest.com/?p=2250#comment-27956</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that Misi doesn&#039;t have a point.
 
Surely copyright in it&#039;s current form is one of the consequences of inventing the printing press? And, if that were true, and if e-words overtake printed words as the primary medium of communication, why should we assume that the model of payment that worked in the age of print will be the best for the digital age? 

Say it became possible to track every story read, and recompense the author that way - why couldn&#039;t it work? Instead of paying £7.99 for a new book I download it for - guessing, of course - 25p, and for that, I can read it once. After that every time I read it, I pay another... say 12p. (My imaginary e-reader is doing this automatically in some hi-tech way.) 
So no book is too expensive - letting people read more - but books that are reread and reread - The Very Hungry Caterpillar - can earn large amounts for their author. And if books are very cheap, there&#039;s less incentive for piracy. 
And yes, no second hand books, no right to resale, but if books never went OOP and only cost a tiny amount new, who would lose out? 

Used book sellers admittedly would. But any advance in technology renders some jobs obsolete - that has always happened. 

I know there&#039;ll be faults in that model - I&#039;m not suggesting it would work as is. But as a thought experiment: I wouldn&#039;t have any problems paying royalties to an author incrementally, by paying a tiny amount every time I read their book, rather than in one lump sum on first purchase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that Misi doesn&#8217;t have a point.</p>
<p>Surely copyright in it&#8217;s current form is one of the consequences of inventing the printing press? And, if that were true, and if e-words overtake printed words as the primary medium of communication, why should we assume that the model of payment that worked in the age of print will be the best for the digital age? </p>
<p>Say it became possible to track every story read, and recompense the author that way &#8211; why couldn&#8217;t it work? Instead of paying £7.99 for a new book I download it for &#8211; guessing, of course &#8211; 25p, and for that, I can read it once. After that every time I read it, I pay another&#8230; say 12p. (My imaginary e-reader is doing this automatically in some hi-tech way.)<br />
So no book is too expensive &#8211; letting people read more &#8211; but books that are reread and reread &#8211; The Very Hungry Caterpillar &#8211; can earn large amounts for their author. And if books are very cheap, there&#8217;s less incentive for piracy.<br />
And yes, no second hand books, no right to resale, but if books never went OOP and only cost a tiny amount new, who would lose out? </p>
<p>Used book sellers admittedly would. But any advance in technology renders some jobs obsolete &#8211; that has always happened. </p>
<p>I know there&#8217;ll be faults in that model &#8211; I&#8217;m not suggesting it would work as is. But as a thought experiment: I wouldn&#8217;t have any problems paying royalties to an author incrementally, by paying a tiny amount every time I read their book, rather than in one lump sum on first purchase.</p>
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