Are Traditional Romance Readers Ready For Lesbian Romances?
Monday, April 20, 2009Posted in: F/F Romance
Katiebabs is currently writing an F/F romance, and over on her blog, she’s talking about the decision to step out of her comfort zone in order to navigate those wildly risky waters.
She writes:
few weeks ago while I was on Twitter some editors and agents were discussing the need for more gay romances. From that moment I decided to try my hand at writing a gay romance…
Why the need to write a lesbian romance? I feel that the M/M romance market has become so big and close to mainstream that I wanted to prove that lesbian romances can be just as popular as the M/M romances I have read. I have wondered why there aren’t more F/F romances on the market, and I was told they simply don’t sell well. I am here to prove that I can write a F/F romance that people will want to read. Reading a romance whether it be gay or straight is about the connection a reader will have with the characters. If your two main characters connect emotionally with the reader, you have accomplished something. And perhaps I can write some nice hot and steamy girl on girl action.
Now I admire Katie’s efforts to write outside her comfort zone, and I applaud her for having the balls (or should I say vagina?) to dare to be so bold, but I think that she’s onto a loser before she even starts.
Wanna know why I’m of this opinion?
Because as much as we ( and I mean the ‘royal we’, as in Romanceland Regulars) are happy enough to try something different in terms of our romance reading, I think outside Blogland/Romanceland, Average Jane Reader isn’t too hot at stepping outside her comfort circle.
I think that F/F romance will have the same trouble that African American romance has had for years. Yeah some people will read it, but will they be the majority? I think not.
I believe that the ‘average’ reader won’t embrace lesbian romance simply because she won’t want to.
But didn’t people say the same thing about MM romance I hear you ask, and yeah, they did, but if you look, how many mm romances have achieved best-seller status on any of the main lists?
Not bloody many. I’m not sure Brokeback Mountain counts as a romance, seeing as one of them ended up dying (at least in the film they did) but did the book actually reach best-seller status? I think it did, but I’m not entirely sure, and quite frankly I can’t be arsed checking.
In the main, MM romance does well within the ebook community, but I still think it’s a niche market that will have a handful of stand-outs in the future, but no more than that. (Wow, isn’t that a bold statement?) I’m here to be corrected if there have been other stand-out MM romances (in terms of sales) that I’ve neglected to mention.
The problem that I see with a pure FF romance is the absence of a penis in any shape or form. The thing is, I think the majority of readers are mostly interested in the hero, and gay romance at least provides that, whereas FF romance does not. Plus I think two men together is probably more appealing to the traditional het reader, than two women together.
African American romance has suffered from a lack of Average Jane Reader for years because AJR mostly wants a caucasian hero (seriously, sheik heroes don’t count, cuz for all intents and purposes they’re pretty white) and FF doesn’t provide a hero at all.
Just like the majority of people who read AA romance are black, I believe that the majority of people who will read FF are either going to be bi-curious or straight out gay. That may sound a little un-pc, bearing in mind that the majority of women who read MM are mainly het, but I think there are different dynamics at work with FF.
I recall my one and only foray into FF romance a few years ago, and the problem I had was that I may as well have been reading an Male/female romance, alpha hero and all.
The main heroine was so butch that she may as well have been a bloke. I think that she actually had a moustache as well, which quite frankly annoyed the crap out of me. Susanna Valent what the fuck were you thinking?
In a market where Harlequin Presents still sell remarkably well, despite the number of Mary Sue heroines and irritatingly uber alpha males, I think the future of FF looks about as bleak as that of a bunny rabbit stuck in a cage with a lion.
So yes, Katiebabs is brave for going where so few romance writers have had success before, but I think in order to rock the status quo, she’ll have to overcome a whole lot of resistance from Average Jane Reader. AA romance anybody?
What say you?
vanessa jaye
April 20
10:33 am
LOL! How did I miss that review?
I want to say I agree with you, and I do, but I don’t know enough about the fanfic audience (whom, I think, were the catalyst behind the immense online popularity of m/m romances, at least at first). There might be an equal community of slashy f/f peeps out there that are eager to go more mainstream.
I’d read f/f, but it honestly wouldn’t be my first choice, in the same way m/m isn’t my first choice (but even less so). And, like m/m, it would be the story/character/writing that would pique my interests, not the heat factor. ::shrug::
Fae
April 20
11:52 am
I just think there’s not a big enough audience for F/F. I might be wrong, there might be silent thousands waiting breathlessly for pubs to start selling what they want to read. I don’t know, though, because even in fandom/fanfic arenas, the interest in femmeslash is minimal at best.
And that’s all I have to say about that, because I can foresee this getting ugly fast.
Angela James
April 20
12:23 pm
It doesn’t sell. It doesn’t sell. It doesn’t sell. No really. There are always people out there who ask why there isn’t more f/f published, but honestly, those people are not speaking with their wallets when it is published. Either that, or the people asking are the small minority who buy it and are the only ones.
Not only does f/f not sell, but f/f/m doesn’t sell. Which kind of somewhat shoots your theory all to hell because there is penis there but…even a popular author with a backlist and built-in audience will have a hard time selling f/f or f/f/m and will see numbers at a fraction of what she normally sells.
I had several readers (and reviewers) once tell me that the presence of another woman interrupts the fantasy and/or isn’t something that interests them in their reading.
Am I saying that f/f will never sell? No, but it’s not going to sell well at a random publisher with an audience for other genres. It would take a publisher who wants to focus on building that market, and understands that the sales will be slow/low to start until a target audience can discover them and buy. I’m not sure how large that target audience might be, but perhaps there’s one there to rival the m/m target audience.
KristieJ
April 20
12:26 pm
It isn’t a niche that appeals to me at all, I’m way to fond of heroes and their throbbing members. And to be honest while I wish her well, I don’t think there would be that big a market for it either.
Angelia Sparrow
April 20
12:39 pm
Uh, there is a place between “bi-curious” and “flat-out gay.” It’s called bisexual. We’re well past the curious stage, but will never give up the opposite sex.
I write the occasional f/f piece. It doesn’t sell nearly as well as m/m.
First quarter sales on my zombie-fighting steampunk lesbians: 33 copies
Two weeks worth of sales on a same-length gay Christmas werewolves vs. Cthulhu: 75
Sales of a Halloween short short over the same period as the lesbians: 153
Las
April 20
12:42 pm
Yep. I think that’s exactly the reason why FF won’t do well.
I’m actually looking forward to reading it, myself, but then I’m bisexual.
katiebabs
April 20
12:49 pm
I knew the moment I decided to try and write a lesbian romance, the majority of readers who are used to straight romance who prefer throbbing penises may have some reservations.
I will make sure my heroines in love don’t have any mustaches or unruly hair growth anywhere else.
Thanks for the post Karen.
Dawn
April 20
1:24 pm
Hmm… As a romance reader I’ve tried several flavours, but try as I might, I just don’t get f/f. Or should that be it doesn’t get me?
Because I read m/f and m/m and have really enjoyed the majority of them, I feel that I should enjoy f/f… but actually, I don’t. I’ve tried about 4 or 5 books by different authors, but they just don’t do anything for me.
Actually, I feel a little guilty about not enjoying them – except for the one, where the writer kept referring to “her sweet face” and “her beautiful body”. That one I wanted to throw, but it was an e-book so I didn’t.
So unless, there’s an exceptional f/f book out there with hot sex, I don’t think that I’ll be dipping my toes in that particular pool anytime soon.
Lori
April 20
1:34 pm
I would read f/f before I’d read m/m but I’m probably in a huge minority. I have zero interest in men getting it on with each other, and I’m completely baffled by it’s popularity with het females. Just one penis too many for me, I guess.
I think with f/f I think of my sister telling me that sex with men felt great but sex with women fulfills a closeness that men can never give (acknowledging her perspective and individual tastes). So to me if it’s an f/f romance with the emphasis on romance, I would be interested.
kirsten saell
April 20
3:38 pm
I actually think willingness to read f/f material is probably more common in the mainstream female readership than willingness to read m/m material. (That is, where the same-sex interactions are not the central theme of the story.) i.e, most Black Lace books have some f/f in them.
One reason I believe m/m is so popular in ebooks is that the readers who wanted it were driven online to fanfic and then ebooks because of a lack of it elsewhere. There’s plenty of f/f material out there in places where men (and women) can find it, and maybe that’s good enough for the average woman who likes to look at it every so often. That readership hasn’t bothered about ebooks, but as digital goes more mainstream, they may eventually turn up to play.
I don’t think it’s the lack of a penis, either (at least not directly). I think it’s the lack of the Hero/heroine dynamic that most romance readers want. Even in m/m, one of the men is often more alpha than the other, and he doesn’t have to be a jerk because he’s got that handy penetrating part. But the lack of those default physical indicators of alphaness–muscles, size, penis, etc–means an author has to rely on characterization to alpha-ize one of the heroines, and unfortunately, what you read, Karen, is often the result.
Butch, shrill, pushy, bullying women are not attractive to most women–even me, and my attraction to women is pretty much equal to my attraction to men.
I love reading f/f, and 90% of the f/f romance out there (at least in ebooks) DOES NOT APPEAL to me, either because both heroines are cuddly and soft and sexless (see: lesbian bed death), or one is an over-the-top, domineering (NOT the same as dominant) butch/bitch, and the other a doormat.
There’s also a lack of quality stuff that’s bi-female-themed, which is sad since that’s what I most like to read. Not necessarily with a man involved, but involving women who aren’t necessarily lesbians. And this may be more appealing to romance readers–because realizing you enjoy (or even prefer) sex with a woman doesn’t make you a lesbian any more than realizing you like reading it. But almost all the f/f stuff out there is presented in a purely lesbian context that a lot of women might find intimidating.
Well, I’ve read a buttload of f/f, and as I said, 90% of them don’t appeal to me, either. If readers are going to take a chance on f/f romance, I think it’s going to have to be within the context of a larger plot, so there’s something else to draw them in. And the author has to tread a very fine line to create that H/h dynamic without hyper-masculinizing and jerkifying the hero.
As for the idea of a female hero, well, I know she’s out there in books other than mine, I just haven’t stumbled across her yet.
Wendy
April 20
3:43 pm
What several people have already said. I think the vast majority of romance readers are so hung up on there being a penis in the story, that if there isn’t one? Yeah, they’re just not interested.
You also bring up an interesting point Karen on how “mainstream” m/m has really gone. I think it’s easy for online readers to have that “disconnect” when it comes to what’s popular. Certainly m/m is very hot among hetero women readers and the ebook market – but until you can find it in Walmart….I don’t think we can consider it “mainstream.” Trust me, there are scads of readers out there who don’t research titles obsessively online, who just wander into Walmart or their local library, and pick up a book that “looks kinda good.” They don’t know authors. They don’t know titles. Hell, they barely know their genres.
This online vs. not-online theory is actually how I explain the continued existence of secret baby stories. It’s all the not-online readers buying them up
Shiloh Walker
April 20
4:14 pm
I’d say I’ve got to agree with Karen…I don’t see FF selling any time soon.
That may well change (and probably will) at some point.
Kayleigh Jamison
April 20
4:24 pm
I commend katiebabs for giving it a try, but I think she has a hard road ahead of her, and I say so from personal experience.
My first novel is f/f, f/f/m menage, and f/m. It’s published, and it has sold like absolute crap compared to my other work. Part of this could, of course, be that it’s my first novel and not as refined as my other works – all writers hone their craft over time, develop a stronger voice, and so on. But I think a big part of its lack of success also has to do with the subject matter. F/F is a niche market. There IS a market, but it’s a small one. I wish I knew why.
MB (Leah)
April 20
4:32 pm
Hmmm…I admire Katiebabs for doing this.
I’ve been one of those outspoken readers who openly admits to enjoying f/f, f/f/m. I even started a blog with Kirsten Saell, who writes this type of book, to review books having f/f, f/f/m in them.
I’m not gay or bi. I can’t even say in reality that I’m bi-curious really although that would be the label for my enjoyment of this kind of material. I only started reading erotica a few years ago and discovered that I enjoy reading f/f, which was a shock to me.
Since then I’ve actively sought this kind of material out.
One thing I have to say is that I’m not so hot on reading straight up lesbian stories of which there is an abundance of. Although I do for lack of material out there. My preference is for there to be a penis in there somewhere or for the characters to be bi-curious or bi-sexual or for there to be the gay-for-you theme. I just can’t relate really to lesbian characters, even though I’m not put off by them.
I think you are right Karen. Most romance readers want a penis or alpha male or at least a more dominant character. In a lot of f/f with this dynamic the dominant one is butch, which I think turns off many women. I’m really turned off by the butch/femme dynamic myself. And sometimes, like in the last book I just finished, one or both women are so emo, constantly going on and on about their feelings that there’s no contrast to create a compelling sexual/romantic dynamic. It’s estrogen overload.
We who like f/f are in a major minority, but being so out there and open about enjoying it, I have come across many women who don’t mind reading it if it’s there and enjoy it to some degree. Yes, they probably will not go out and specifically buy it, which is why no one will write it. Which does create a vicious circle.
To be honest, as I’ve read a fair amount now, I can tell you that what’s being written is often crap. There’s just not that much decently written material out there. So even if someone does want to read it, chances are they’re going to be stuck with a crappy book and get turned off. End of story, they won’t look further.
For every m/m book that I’ve read, there’s been at least 2-3 others that totally sucked and were badly written. But the plethora of m/m out there is such that it can keep those lovers of it going because there are many well written m/m books.
Since the amount of f/f material out there dwindles drastically from m/m you can imagine that the well written ones are extremely rare.
All of that said, while I don’t think that f/f, f/f/m will ever really become that popular, I do wish that more writers would be willing to write some f/f or at least throw in a scene or two of f/f within a larger story because there are some of us out there who do want to read it and we would like good, well written stories.
kirsten saell
April 20
5:00 pm
Like when all those Katy Perry fans stop texting long enough to actually pick up a book? Today’s young women are more open about the fluidity of human sexuality than ever, and when they become the market for romance novels, we may well see a more even spread of sexual content in our romances. Well, granted, those young women still might not be interested in lesbian romance, but f/f isn’t necessarily synonymous with lesbian, either…
In my experience, the number of women who’ve said if they had to choose, they’d “rather read f/f sex than m/m” is huge. But that doesn’t mean they necessarily want to read it at all, does it? Just that they are less disinclined to read f/f than m/m. They’re not about to seek out same sex content of any kind. Their first choice will always be m/f.
But I do know there are plenty of women out there like Leah, women who stumble across a well-written story and realize they’re really enjoying something they never expected to. And they’re more likely, sad to say, to find that in erotica than in romance, because so much of the f/f romance out there is either meh or actively off-putting.
Dude, you seriously need to copyright that term. Seriously.
Shannon C.
April 20
5:03 pm
Sadly, I think your comment about F/F romance being treated like AA romance is apt. It does seem like there’s a lot of F/F out there, if you know where to look, but it really is written for a lesbian audience, and I think that intimidates non-lesbians because non-lesbians don’t necessarily care about or identify with lesbian issues. I imagine it’s much the same as the fact that M/M romance written by straight women is a whole kettle of fish entirely from M/M stuff written explicitly to the gay community.
What I’d like to see and what would make me buy an ebook with F/F content is an actual story. Most of the F/F stuff I hear about or see descriptions of online tends to be of the, “Hey, BFF. Will you hit on me so my boyfriend will notice and then smex me up later? Oh, wow, I never knew lady parts were so… soft… Oh, well, that was fun. Let’s not do that again” variety. Which has always struck me as way too much of a man’s fantasy for a romance novel. I want something that doesn’t feel exploitive, where I can believe in the connection between the two leads.
willaful
April 20
5:45 pm
I have no specific interest in f/f romance, but I am a huge fan of Sarah Waters, and considering her books are widely available, on audio, and have been filmed in England, I can’t be the only one. I sure would be sad if she’d listened to all the people who told her she would never sell.
Jody Wallace
April 20
5:50 pm
I have an f/f/m thread in my choose-your-adventure romance from Red Sage, but I don’t know how it’s selling. It was a lot of fun to write, and my publisher was definitely behind me. But it has an m/f thread and the potential for others, too, so I wouldn’t say it’s an f/f romance novel.
Cathy in AK
April 20
6:32 pm
More f/f relationships in television and movies may help inch the door open for f/f romances. Though, more often than not, they are put out there to titilate, to be “naughty” or “edgy,” eventually they will be seen as what they should be–showing people in love. As Shannon C. said, less exploitative and more real. It’s coming.
I hope so, anyway. Like Katiebabs, I’ve written my first f/f–a science fiction romance (yes, there is more than the bicurious bff involved
. Neither the heroine nor the heroine are overly emo or butch, just strong women who fall in love. Will it sell? Beats me. All I know is that it was the story I had to write.
A very interesting discussion. Thanks.
Voronda
April 20
6:34 pm
Wow, this is a great blog and totally agree with everything you said! WOW
Cathy in AK
April 20
6:34 pm
willaful: I just read two of Sarah Waters’ books: Tipping the Velvet and Affinity. Loved them!
willaful
April 20
6:36 pm
Cathy, you must read Fingersmith! It’s the closest to a traditional romance, also very gothic and dark.
Karen Scott
April 20
7:09 pm
Willaful, does Sarah Waters count as romance? Tipping the Velvet was a good story, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t aimed at your average romance reader. Fingersmith was along a similar vein too if I recall correctly.
You could also cite DH Lawrence’s The Rainbow and Women In Love, but I’m not sure they can be classed as romance either, which could be partly why the books were well received, eventually. Of course being considered a classic probably helped the cause. Book snobs always tend to salivate over work that come under the ‘classic’ heading, regardless of their content.
Had Waters labelled her books as romance, it would be interesting to see if she would have sold as well.
Also, not forgetting that Sarah Waters has carved out a niche as an author who specialises in lesbian fiction, and I have to say that that is probably one of the major reasons for her success.
MichelleR
April 20
7:26 pm
I’ve seen no real interest in F/F around these parts. I think lesbians have their pubs that they trust and that’s that. The women around here — the reader– might be curious, but it’s established that they like men, so the writer has to get the nuances right.
Lesbian stories for lesbians is different than mainstream F/F. To read it as a straight woman or marginally interested woman, the real stuff, is to possibly feel a little lost, because it doesn’t read like the titillation fantasies seen in mainstream media and the characters are representative and representing a different community.
A lot of M/M written by and for women is different than stories gay men write for one another, too, but the results encapsulate a popular female fantasy. F/F cannot be the type written for a pub like, say, Bella Books, but the only other blueprint is based on the male version of the fantasy that plays out in the media all the time. Many women read to leave behind obligations and expectations and don’t want to read a story that reminds them of the way their boyfriend’s eyes light up whenever she says she’s staying over at her best friend’s house.
That’s not to say that straight women can’t enjoy stories with lesbian characters, but it seems to be in a different way than they embrace romance or erotic romance as we know it.
SarahT
April 20
7:28 pm
I think Katie should go for it. Yeah, it’ll probably be hard to sell, but what book isn’t these days?
I probably epitomise Average Jane Reader, especially when it comes to sexual and paranormal content in romance novels. But I’m willing to read outside my comfort zone if a book generates enough buzz. If it hadn’t been for their popularity, I probably wouldn’t have tried J.R. Ward or Emma Holly. And I would have missed out on some great books.
As for AA romance: I’ve never actually read one! I don’t give a hoot what colour the characters are, as long as the book is well-written. But AA books seem to be pretty hard to find, at least outside the US. I don’t know what the thinking behind marketing them is. Are they separated from other romance novels because they sell more that way?
I’m so glad Dorothy Koomson’s books are easy to find. She’s a wonderful writer and she has some of the prettiest covers out there.
Oh, and I second (or third?) the Sarah Waters recommendation. ‘Fingersmith’ is one of my favourite books ever.
Nonny
April 20
7:41 pm
Unfortunately, I have to agree. I’ve seen informal polls done at various different forums, blogs, and so on — and usually 3/4 of the women say they aren’t interested in reading F/F romance.
It’s annoying to me, as I personally love F/F romance and have a hard time finding it.
che
April 20
7:55 pm
You’re right, I read romances mainly for the heroes, so yeah, I’d read m/m for that, but not f/f. Just not interested at all. I wouldn’t call it “hung up” on the penis. Women just plain don’t turn me on.
Treva Harte
April 20
8:24 pm
Handy of you to discuss this since we are going to have a menage with two women in it at Loose Id this month. I liked the premise of the story but we’ll see.
Mary Winter
April 20
8:28 pm
Most of my publishers say F/F doesn’t sell. However, as part of our beief that love is a beautiful thing regardless of the numbers or genders (or heck species, *grins*) of people involved, Pink Petal Books will gladly accept and will publish (well-written) f/f stories. In fact, I’m working on one for our October anthology releases (or will once I get my gator novella done). We’d also welcome non-romance f/f for our science fiction/fantasy and metaphysical fiction lines for Jupiter Gardens Press. Just like we would welcome any and all orientations (transgendered MTF or FTM included).
Karen Scott
April 20
8:45 pm
Hi Mary, can I ask, how do the FFs sell in comparison to the rest?
Also, if they don’t sell well, is it good business to publish them?
Mary Winter
April 20
9:02 pm
Karen,
I haven’t had any sent to me yet, so I can’t tell you how they sell. As to the business plan, we’re a much smaller operation than the big guys so our “break even” numbers are less. And really, I won’t know until I try. While I have had two major publishers (EC & Samhain) tell me they won’t sell, and one publisher tell me that she only wants them from her existing authors, a fourth has published them and my friend who writes for several pubs says that her f/f has outsold some of her other work at other (large established) publishers.
So I am willing to try. I am also wondering if it’s the marketing of them. For example, to the “traditional” romance buying public as opposed to the GLBT community. They want romances too. *grins*
My partner (boyfriend) and I are working on a f/m/f-f/f/m fantasy menage, and it’s been very fun to write.
Hope this helps!!!!!
kirsten saell
April 20
9:25 pm
Oh, exactly!
Most of what I’ve read is either lesbian material, or the straight man’s fantasy. The “two hot chicks warming each other up so I can finish them off” thing doesn’t appeal to me AT ALL, because I don’t think “real sex” and “real love” have to involve a penis somewhere.
And lesbian fiction can be intimidating or uninteresting for straight women, and off-putting, quite frankly, for someone like me who straddles the fence. I may like women as much as men, but I’m not a lesbian. I’m not sure I’d even call myself bisexual, because it’s not so much about sex (or the sex organs we are born with), as it is about falling for a specific person. And yeah, that can be really physical, but the physical aspect isn’t the end all and be all.
I’ve heard a lot of readers complain about the “gay for you” theme that’s common in m/m, but dammit, why is that so unrealistic? I’ve absolutely fallen in love and in lust with specific women, but that doesn’t mean I’m automatically more attracted to any pretty woman than to an equally attractive man–or that I’ll be attracted to her at all. The “gay for you theme”, or the “never expected to enjoy sex/fall for another woman” theme really work for me, because that’s who I am. I’m gay for some women, and I’m straight for some men, but it’s the person I fall for.
Gay and lesbian fiction seems to be largely about assigning absolutes–you’re gay or you’re straight, one or the other. I don’t want to pick sides. I’m happy on the fence with one foot in each field, thanks. Being in a monogamous marriage with a man for 15 years didn’t make me straight, any more than being in a relationship with a woman would make me a lesbian. I’m in love with the person I’m in love with, even if what I find attractive in a woman is totally diffent from what appeals to me in a man.
It is all about nuance. And you’re not going to get that from lesbian romance. You’re probably not going to get it from 99% of the f/f being published right now.
Lesbians seem almost more adamant about picking sides than gay men–if you search for bi fiction at GLBT pubs, almost all of it is bi-male. That may change as the popularity of m/m and m/m/f grows among straight women, because part of the lesbian community’s annoyance with female bisexuals, IMO, has to do with the fact that female bisexuality has been exploited for the titillation of straight men for, oh, forever. It’s seen as distasteful and not genuine, because that straight guy interest has belittled it and degraded it into some stupid, porny lezbo-orgy farce.
Wait a bit–there will inevitably be a backlash among gay men over male bisexuality. It might take a while, and it might not be as strong as the one in the lesbian community (because women have always been objectified sexually, and men are only now starting to experience the same thing), but I can feel it coming.
Tuscan Capo
April 20
10:08 pm
I was wondering when someone was going to point the finger of blame on straight men. Geesh, finally. Now I can get back to watching the riveting action of Lumberjack Lesbos Battle Dr. Goldenrod’s League of Stupid Men. The orgy scene is coming up and I sure don’t want to miss it.
kirsten saell
April 20
10:31 pm
@Tuscan Capo:
Dude, I’m not blaming straight men for the fact that f/f doesn’t sell well. I’m saying many lesbians (wrongly) hate even the idea of female bisexuality because of the way it’s been co-opted by the porn industry (for a largely straight male audience). And that rejection of the notion of female bisexuality leads to an us-or-them mentality in a lot of lesbian culture/fiction that makes it very offputting to the majority of us who fall somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey scale.
I don’t want to read f/f romance where the agenda isn’t even hidden in the subtext, but is right in your face. I don’t want to read f/f romance where all the men are assholes, or the enemy, or a woman enters into an f/f relationship because her boyfriend/husband/ex was a jerk. I don’t want to read f/f romance that’s about a rejection of the penis. I want to read f/f and bisexual romance presented in the context of opting in to the possibility of a same-sex relationship, not necessarily opting out of the straight ones.
I’ve consumed my share of lezbo-orgy porn. Enough to know it isn’t aimed at readers/viewers like me, even though I’ve had to content myself with it much of the time for lack of anything else. I think the blame for the insecurity and resentment within the lesbian community belongs with the lesbian community. There may be external reasons behind it, but they need to own it.
But if you’d ever had a lesbian berate you for being a poser, or a traitor to the cause, because you’re attracted to men as well as women, you’d understand. Being a guy, and straight, I’m guessing you haven’t come across it. I have, and I really resent it. About a billion times more even than I resent all the “Ooh, you’re hot for her? Can I watch?” that I get from men.
Mary Winter
April 20
11:24 pm
@kirsten I hope you enjoy my planned f/f novella then. It is a civil war historical and while one of the women is a window, it is very much a “friends to lovers” story where one becomes open to a possiblity.
It’s like all the poly communities looking for a HBB – Hot Bi Babe to be the “be all, end all” in a relationship, the folcrum on which the sex revolves, mostly for the pleasure of the already established couple and not the HBB. PUKE!
kirsten saell
April 21
1:03 am
PUKE, indeed.
What I love is when you’re in the bar and some guy comes up and asks if he can watch you and your friend (not even your girlfriend!) make out. Guessing not many guys get asked that by straight chicks when they’re out for beers with their buds…
I have no issues with an already established couple (of whatever configuration) inviting a third person (of whatever gender) into their relationship. There’s a lot of hit and miss with that particular trope, though, mostly because of the motivation of the parties involved. I’m up for pretty much anything in straight-up erotica, but yeah, if it’s all about using and discarding someone? Or some kicks and giggles and then ta-ta? Not really a romance.
That sounds awesome. I’ll admit, I’m more likely to enjoy f/f (or m/m and menage, for that matter) when it’s not contemporary, because I don’t really relate to the modern gay scene (or urban scene, to tell you the truth). It feels kind of unhip to say it, but there you go.
That said, I’m all over any f/f written by authors who have a talent for characterization and sexual tension. But in so much of the f/f I’ve read, the characters are caricatures, and the writing and editing simply sub-par. I don’t know if that’s because of the prevailing wisdom that there’s no money in it, so very few talented authors bother writing it, and editors can’t be bothered to invest more than a cursory effort. Which creates a vicious cycle when people willing to give it a try find nothing but stories that are “meh”, or make them angry and uncomfortable, and they think that’s all there is to the genre.
Sad.
JenB
April 21
1:31 am
I think the best way to sell f/f these days is to “sneak” it into mainstream het romance the way Black Lace authors and some Aphrodisia authors do.
I do wish more f/f and bi romance existed, but I’d rather read one or two well-written scenes in a Black Lace book than wade through 50k words of a poorly-written f/f e-book.
You’ll notice a lot of women say things like “it had a f/f scene in it, but I didn’t mind it so much” or “I was surprised at the f/f scene, but I found it surprisingly sexy”. The secret might be to capture those readers first, and then slowly bring them over to full-length f/f. I’ve read wonderful f/f scenes by several Black Lace authors and one Aphrodisia author. If any one of them decided to write a f/f romance, I’d be on it like a duck on a june bug because I already know and appreciate their style.
I’m less inclined to try a full-length f/f romance by an author whose work I’ve never read. That might seem unfair, and maybe it is. But no more unfair than having to spend lots of money and time wading through the mediocre f/f stuff in the current market.
kirsten saell
April 21
1:41 am
Hell, Jen, I’d read everything Black Lace put out, if it weren’t for the fact that I have to drive 4 1/2 hours to get to the nearest bookstore, and Amazon charges almost as much (or more) as the book to ship to my area. For now, I’m mostly stuck with ebooks, and as far as I know, BL doesn’t have anything available in ebook. Last I checked, Aphrodisia wanted trade paperback prices for their ebooks, and just…no.
I’ve gobbled up most of what Portia da Costa has in ebook format, because I know I like her style. Sad, but most of the best f/f I’ve read has been free stories through print published erotica authors’ websites…
I do think you’re probably onto something as far as courting readers who’ve enjoyed it in smaller doses. But then again, that doesn’t mean they’re going to want to read a romance between two women…
Seneca
April 21
1:47 am
I was just talking about this.
My theory is not that it’s not wanted, it’s that most of the f/f out there is just crap.
Katiebabs, write that f/f and write it well. I’m dying for some good f/f books.
JenB
April 21
2:07 am
Kirsten – Good points about BL and Aphro. Yes, they are both very expensive in all formats. I’ve bought several used, but that doesn’t really help the authors, so it’s been more for my own enjoyment than the advancement of the subgenre.
I tend to think many/most women are more open to f/f than we’re willing to admit. The whole Gay Thing. Sigh.
kirsten saell
April 21
2:09 am
Well, a lot of it is, and a lot of it that is decent just won’t appeal to the straight women who make up the majority of romance readers.
I will say that it’s probably a lot harder to write an f/f romance that will appeal to those readers than say, m/f or m/m (I’ve encountered this in my own writing, actually)–because if you want there to be a Heroine and a heroine, it’s an enormously fragile balancing act to make the dominant one sufficiently alpha without her being a butch/bitch. And women (including myself) will tolerate all kinds of bad behavior in their romance heroes that they absolutely will not in their heroines.
kirsten saell
April 21
2:17 am
A lot of attitude from the gay community doesn’t help. It really burns my ass when people insist I pick a side, or that when I say I like men and women, they tell me I’m just lying to myself. When even some gays and lesbians (and plenty of straight people) insist that there’s no middle ground at all, I can understand how some straight women might be very uncomfortable admitting even to themselves that they fantasize about other women, or enjoy reading f/f.
Cathy in AK
April 21
2:31 am
I agree that the sexual fluidity of today’s younger female readers might help bring f/f romances forward. But as stated before, we need to offer quality goods. Back in the day, weren’t many m/f erotica and erotic romances considered poor or mediocre works because the stories seemed to be all sex and no substance? When publishers and authors caught on that readers wanted more than slots and tabs, the stories improved. Now everyone and their grandmas are reading erotic works : ) Maybe the same will happen for f/f romances, but hopefully sooner rather than later.
kirsten saell
April 21
2:57 am
Oddly, I think f/f is suffering from a few disadvantages. One is the idea many women have that what they see in Girls Gone Wild ads is what they’re going to get in f/f. Another is that it doesn’t sell, or it won’t appeal, so the best talent goes elsewhere. Yet another is the fact that straight women don’t necessarily have an affinity for writing the ins and outs (hehe) of f/f sex, while at the same time, lesbian authors don’t necessarily write the kind of relationship dynamics that appeal to straight women readers. And another is the fact that f/f is often considered synonymous with lesbian–which is no more true than if you said m/m and gay fiction were the same thing.
Most of the f/f stories I’ve come across would appeal either to lesbians or (not and) to straight men, and they aren’t the primary consumers of romance.
I do think you’re right in that something that is exceptional could get enough word of mouth to break the stereotype of the unsellable f/f. But again, I don’t know if the majority of romance readers are ready for a book solely focused on a romance between two women. In the context of a great SFF or paranormal or historical or mystery? I can definitely see that happening. And I think the more it happens, the more women (like Leah above) will realize that “OMG, I’m liking this a lot, and I never thought I would.”
Mary Winter
April 21
3:04 am
Interestingly enough, my lesbian friends both said that they prefer to read m/m than f/f fiction. If they read slash of any sort.
I also wonder if the genre isn’t suffering from the self-fulfilling prophecy of “it doesn’t sell.” because like you said, the talent goes elsewhere. I think that is one of the main reasons why I want to at least not close PPB off from it. Obviously people are reading it and enjoying it when it’s slipped in (pardon the pun) to heterosexual romances.
kirsten saell
April 21
3:40 am
LOL. I actually noted in my above comment that several lesbian and bi-female authors whom I much admire write m/m rather than f/f, for whatever reason–but then I deleted it because I didn’t want this thread to become about m/m. And I didn’t want those authors to maybe see it as a criticism, because we should all write what we’re driven to write.
Ebooks are still a very small (and not very homogenous) segment of the romance-buying market. Many many ebook readers went online looking specifically for m/m because they couldn’t find it elsewhere. They found slash fanfic, and then made a natural progression from there into ebooks. That means the proportion of ebook readers (as Karen noted in her OP) who enjoy m/m is going to be a lot larger than the corresponding proportion among romance readers in general. And a lot of those m/m readers won’t touch f/f–some won’t even read m/f.
F/f content (and implied f/f content), on the other hand, has been largely accepted all over the place for a long time, from Anne of Green Gables, to Girls Gone Wild, to Xena, to Kissing Jessica Stein, to Willow on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, to Kushiel’s Dart, to the L Word, to just about every porn movie ever made for straight guys. It’s bloody everywhere. And I think as the ebook readership becomes more mainstream and more homogenous, f/f will enjoy a larger share of the market.
I’m not sure if that means that m/m ebooks will begin to decline (as far as percentage of a growing market, not actual number of units sold), or whether some mainstream readers switching to ebooks will give it a go and decide they like it. I hope it’s the latter, because I’m all for diversity, and I’m fortunate in that reading just about any gender combination in any number will appeal to me.
Me, I’m going to write what I write because it’s what I love. I’ve made the joke before that if I wanted to be unhappy and make a ton of money I’d write erotic gay vampires. Call me stubborn, but that’s just not the way I do things.
MichelleR
April 21
5:20 am
**I was wondering when someone was going to point the finger of blame on straight men. Geesh, finally. Now I can get back to watching the riveting action of Lumberjack Lesbos Battle Dr. Goldenrod’s League of Stupid Men. The orgy scene is coming up and I sure don’t want to miss it.**
Tuscan,
Kirsten was responding to my post, so I think I should clarify. I don’t believe it’s a matter of blaming men at all, but finding something that works for female readers.
I’ve written F/F meant to turn on men and I’ve written F/F meant to turn on women, and it’s a different experience, a different audience. That’s all that’s being said here.
F/F, unless produced specifically for the lesbian community or in literary fiction, has traditionally been presented for the arousal of men and the characters molded to best serve male fantasies.
If we’re talking about how F/F can appeal to straight bi, and just plain curious women, then we’re talking about a different treatment. We’re also talking about a wall that might be there based on their own exposure to it as a male fantasy.
The fact that lots of men are attracted to the topic is not bad, but a lot of women have been made to feel inadequate by some men acting like all women should be open to it and ready to prove it. That’s life, and nobody can make you feel inferior without your approval and all that, but it might stop women from choosing the topic during their “just for me” reading time.
For many women, the books they read are about their fantasies, even if those fantasies are contrary to what their boyfriend or husband might be able to appreciate. F/F, under those circumstances, might become the last thing they want to read.
M/M is freed from the baggage in a way F/F is not. M/M is going to be something a lot men, even liberal and non-judgmental men, aren’t going to embrace. A woman might enjoy M/M written by another woman because — beyond the obvious stuff — it covers the issues and fantasies women like, and doesn’t allow real world pressures and expectations to intrude.
We can’t discuss if traditional romance readers are ready for lesbian romances w/o discussing the reasons that might be holding them back from enjoying it.
That’s not an indictment of men at all. Both sexes have a right to their own fantasies and even shared fantasies might not play out the exact same way for each of them.
When I decided to try my hand at a short story marketed for lesbians, I read a lot of stories and did my homework. I was titillated by some of it, but it was obvious that — even though I identify as bi — I was not the automatic market. There were recurring themes that didn’t automatically occur to me, because it wasn’t part of my fantasy landscape. Hadn’t occurred to me and I’d been writing girl/girl for a while — I’d just been writing it with an eye to pleasing another audience. I have great respect for the lesbian community, and would happily write more stories aimed toward their fantasies, but a lesbian’s fantasy about women is not going to be the same as a male’s fantasy, or even a bi woman’s fantasy. At the very least, there are going to be shifts in focus, in what details are important, and in how the protagonist thinks of herself and her partner.
Many women, imo, are turned on by the topic of two women, even when filtered through the lens of the male version of the fantasy, but it’s often a compromise. Romance and erotic romance marketed toward women leaves that compromise at the door. Women might be reading about a relationship, but they’re also taking a break from the obligations of their own relationship.
There’s no insult in saying that there needs to be a new blueprint for F/F in order to please a market used to a version that doesn’t fully belong to or serve the fantasies of women.
kirsten saell
April 21
5:30 am
MichelleR, I think I’m in love with you. *g*
Karen Scott
April 21
7:35 am
Whilst I can read FF scenes in books, buying a purely FF book is another story.
I read Lacey Alexander books, and she has a habit of always sticking at least one FF scene in her books, but as I’m primarily reading for the H/H, these scenes are easy enough for me to read and leave behind.
Just like I won’t buy pure MM romance, but if there happens to be MM scenes in a book, I’m happy to read, skim or avoid.
It’s funny that you mention Black Lace books, because I’ve given up reading them due to there not being strong enough romantic elements in them, plus the few I read had too many FF scenes that made the books more like big old porn fests.And quite frankly if I wanted to read porn, I’d buy a Carol Lynne book or read it free on the internet.
Cathy in AK
April 21
4:42 pm
Is that like slipping pureed spinache into your kid’s smoothee? Try it! It’s good and good for you
So basically, write an f/f romance that isn’t necessarily seen as a romance?
kirsten saell
April 21
5:28 pm
Well, most of my own books have a fairly strong secondary fantasy/adventure/suspense plot, and I’ll admit those kind of books appeal to me more as a reader. I want some kind of story outside of the growing relationship–something external that brings the protagonists together, and something they have to get through and survive. That’s why so many contemporaries are just “meh” for me, no matter what the configuration of the relationship. Even if the romance is the meat, I kinda want a substantial side dish or it isn’t interesting to me. And with m/m, f/f and menage, yeah, the difficulties of a non-traditional relationship can be part of that external conflict, but if that’s all there is, it’s like a 10 oz porterhouse with three grains of rice and a greenbean. Not enough to satisfy me.
Right now, I’m writing an f/f that almost isn’t an f/f, because one of the heroines lives as a man (and the other heroine doesn’t discover the truth until after she’s fallen in love). She’s definitely not a man, though, and I wouldn’t call her butch or anything. She lives as a man, but she thinks and feels like a woman, she still has a softness and vulnerability that’s very feminine.
I think there’s a lot of good fodder for conflict in that as far as who she really is vs the face she presents to the world. It was one of the aspects of her character readers (male and female) seemed to respond almost overwhelmingly positively to in two of the books I’ve already had published–that and the fact that she’s unapologetically bisexual and doesn’t end up putting on a figurative dress to get her HEA (even her het one).
And the thing is, I’ve had men (straight ones) tell me how much they enjoyed my first book after their wife bought it for them or suggested it to them, and I wonder if they even realized they were reading a romance. So the spinach in the smoothie can work for them, too. *g*
Louise van Hine
April 21
8:30 pm
Funny, I just got finished reading an F/F romance-adventure that got some mainstream press as a good seller, “Above All, Honor” by Radclyffe, a lesbian writer. I learned reading that story that Radclyffe’s women’s anatomies do things I never knew they could! – and I’ve been female for decades now! There’s a strong political plot, some good supporting characters, and the romance and erotic content was absolutely a nonstarter. If that’s one of the “hot selling” F/F’s I won’t buy another. And I think it does have a certain amount to do with the attempt to break out of sex role stereotypes, which M/M stories don’t have to be concerned with – men are men, after all. I know I am not interested in reading about women hitting the glass ceiling and their limited choices in life ON TOP OF homophobia, it’s like a double whammy downer for escape literature.
kirsten saell
April 21
11:18 pm
Well, I wouldn’t want to read an m/m where the only external conflict was “my mom disowned me because I’m gay, and my boss is a homophobe who won’t promote me, and no one accepts my relationship with the man I love,” either. Likewise, if all the characters in the book are gay (think Carol Lynne’s Cattle Valley books), or the only straight characters are assholes.
Lesbian fiction aimed at lesbians is often really politicized, and if you aren’t interested in that, it can be tiresome. And some authors writing GLBT romance for a more mainstream audience make the mistake of following their lead–they make everything about the implications of being gay. I’m sorry, I’m just not hugely invested in GLBT political issues, despite the fact that I’m one of the Bs.
Not that the intolerance/taboo thing can’t add something to the tension in the story–one reason I like m/m historicals. But no matter the gender/orientation of the protagonists, a romance alone is almost never enough to keep me interested in any novel. Give me a villain (and not just a stalker ex, unless you’re gonna put a gun in his/her hand) or a murder investigation, or a plot to take over the world, or some bad guys trading in human flesh, or an alien abduction. Geez, give me anything, and dang it, make it exciting! That’s all I ask.
Cathy in AK
April 22
12:45 am
Kirsten, have I got an unpubbed SFR for you
OK, blatant and premature self promo aside, I totally agree that there has to be more than the orientation issue, more than even it being a romance, to keep me interested too. Maybe that’s one of the stumbling blocks writers of f/f need to hurdle, letting Average Jane Reader know that there is a fun story in there, not an agenda.
Lorraine
April 22
1:45 am
As an Average Jane Reader I wouldn’t have a problem reading a F/F. Like many have said, it’s the relationship and the emotional connection to the characters that counts.
I’ve always loved the HEA monogamous tropes found in traditional romance stories. I would have an easier time reading M/M and F/F over menage stories, simply because it fits better within my mind set of a happy one-on-one relationship.
That being said, I’ve heard great things about menage stories and have wanted to read one for quite some time *in fact, I’ve surfed Kirsten Saell’s website and boy, do your books look awesome girly!*
kirsten saell
April 22
3:40 am
LOL, Cathy. It’s never too early for some shameless self-promo.
Shoot me an email when it’s published, and I’ll definitely grab a copy.
Aww, shucks, thanks Lorraine!
I have to say, menage can be hit or miss with me. When it’s a hit, boy howdy! When it’s a miss, I sometimes feel like I need to scrub off with some lye and a wire brush. It’s all to do with the motivations of the protagonists–why do they enter into the menage? Do all three get something out of the arrangement, or is one of them only there for the benefit of the other two? And if one of them does walk off into the sunset alone, does it feel like they’ve been used and then cut loose?
And some types of menage just don’t work for me at all–m/f/m and f/m/f.
In the first case, I just can’t suspend my disbelief to embrace the notion of two alpha dudes focused on one woman’s pleasure. I end up thinking, poor woman, stuck servicing two men. DP every night? Thanks, but I’ll take a pass. And when the shine of new love wears off, where’s she gonna be? In the kitchen with a sinkful of dishes, while one dude’s playing World of Warcraft and drinking beer, and the other one’s in the basement surfing porno.
In the second case, well, I can only presume an f/m/f would turn into some backstabby, polygamous (not polyamorous) arrangement where the guy has two women to “do” for him and the women fight constantly over his attention.
Besides, I think if you’re going to invite people over, everyone should play with each other. It’s only polite.
shirley
April 22
4:50 am
ROFLMFAO!! Omg, dying here, just dying.
I adore m/m/f menage, fwiw.
I’m in a committed, monogamous, same-sex relationship now. There isn’t a lot of sex, but there is a great deal of intimacy.
I’m not interested in f/f literature/erotica/romance. Simply put, f/f relationships – the best of them, IMO – aren’t about romance but about friendship, intimacy, warmth, support of each other. In other words, the best and closest BFF where sensuality/sexuality can play a role, and the ridiculous, petty agendas women reserve for other women do not. My partner doesn’t romance me. She loves me, she listens to me, we are there for each other. We don’t have a romance, we have love and deep friendship. I suppose if we were young, the fiery passions of youth might play a bigger role, but women – on the whole- need more than sex to be fulfilled. And what few younger lesbians, and bi women in same sex relationships, I know say that the hot, hot of initial attraction faded pretty quickly in their relationships, faster if outside the bedroom things were lacking.
I don’t know if what I’m saying here makes sense or not, but it’s a bit hard to articulate how juxtaposed my current relationship is from ANY het relationship I had was. Being with a woman is completely the opposite of being with a man, for me. YMMV. And *that* is why I don’t see f/f ever getting big. The romance community are looking for certain things in their books, regardless of the sex of the main characters, and I just don’t know that f/f could pull it off and be believable. Women know women, after all, so some of the things a hero might do that readers and heroines might get over, so to speak, another heroine wouldn’t be forgiven for.
kirsten saell
April 22
5:35 am
Ahh, the dreaded lesbian bed death. It sort of makes sense, when you realize that for women (at least in my experience), a huge part of being turned on comes from being the object or focus of someone’s desire. In a m/f relationship, where the man is loaded with testosterone and up for sex pretty much anytime (and might be nagging for it constantly, holy crap) the woman feels desired and is therefore more likely to be able to maintain her own feelings of physical desire over the long haul.
In a f/f relationship, any lengthy period of no sex, for whatever reason, can lead to both women feeling undesired, and their lust kind of fizzles. And this is why I believe for f/f to appeal to a largely straight readership, it needs a heroine and a female hero (not a man, btw, but a hero and a horndog). You need one woman to be actively pursuing sex, to be alpha, to be the testosterone that fuels the sexual relationship.
But you’re also totally right when you say:
There’s a really fine line between a female hero or alpha heroine and a pushy, bossy domineering bitch. And what counts for pushy, bossy and domineering in women is much milder than what’s generally tolerated in men. I’ve read a few seduction scenes featuring alpha males and more docile heroines, and rejiggered them in my head to make the guy a woman. Holy crapweasels, it ain’t attractive at all. A female romance hero has to be way more subtle to be in any way attractive to women.
But again, I think it’s something that can be done, and needs to be done if a story is going to have a wider appeal. Now I just have to see if I can pull it off…
Oh, and I adore m/m/f menage, too. It’s just the m/f/m kind that leaves me cold.
JenB
April 22
2:47 pm
Very good point. That’s one reason I wonder why we don’t see female FWB (friends with benefits) stories–best friends who acknowledge a connection that runs deeper than just friendship, and who may experiment with physical intimacy as well. I can see this storyline not working for a strictly lesbian audience, but I think bisexual women or straight women with a bit of female curiosity would appreciate it.
The “am I gay” angst doesn’t even really apply to this storyline (although I can see its validity in certain variations on this theme). Some straight women are perfectly fine with the fact that they find other women attractive.
I’d like to see this story outside of an all-girls boarding school. That’s already been done to death, mostly for a male audience.
MB (Leah)
April 22
3:40 pm
What both Shirley and JenB said–
I kind of like the idea of blurry lines in a f/f friendship. One in which the sexual boundaries can be crossed easily but without all the drama of a m/f sexual relationship.
I’d love to read stories like this. Anne Rainey’s- Burn had something like this and I liked that aspect of her book. Two friends who easily get sexual, but it’s not a full time thing.
But I think that Shirley is right in that there’s just no spark in that kind of thing so it’s not that interesting long term. I think there are probably many women out there who’ve crossed that line with a friend to some degree but it was no big deal so nothing to write home about or get excited over.
I think younger women are much easier with Jen’s idea of FWB. Just like they have guy FWB.. but whether or not that can translate into a hot romance that a het woman would love to read is another story.
Maybe the idea is to find out what scenario het women would read and create a niche with that.
Kaetrin
April 23
6:07 am
I think Karen is right about the lack of penis being the problem (at least for me). I can read m/m romance because I can relate to being attracted to a male, so I have something in common with the main characters. And, there’s penetration* – gotta have that!
(not by use of sex aids)
I don’t think I’m likely to buy f/f books but I welcome the discussion and I stand ready to be surprised by a recommendation/positive review from a site I trust.
kirsten saell
April 23
5:55 pm
I think a lot of f/f lacks the figurative penis as well as the literal one. And even for women who don’t require the physical part, they still want a hero. They want one character to be stronger, to be the pursuer, to be the hero.
Problem is, it’s really hard to write a female hero who’s strong without seeming swaggering, assertive without seeming pushy, sexually voracious without looking like a slut, alpha without seeming bullying, confident without coming across as arrogant. (Just look at some of the overly kick-ass heroines out there in some UF, even without the romance aspect. What appeals in an alpha male isn’t necessarily going to even be tolerated in a woman.)
And sometimes, when there’s no subtlety of characterization at all, the results just make me feel like I need a shower. You end up with caricatures–the bully and the doormat.
I’m in the middle of writing an f/f right now, the kind I want to read and would love to see more of. And it’s such a fine line to tread, even knowing what I find appealing, to write it with enough deftness to not annoy myself. That doesn’t mean it can’t be done. At least, I certainly hope I can pull it off.
And ditto on the sex aids. But penetration can be figurative, just like penises can…
Lorraine
April 23
11:43 pm
I think romance readers in general are more inclined to forgive the heroes for being shmucks and we can be unforgiving of the heroines for far less egregious behavior. Could be we have higher expectations and standards for women’s behavior, which seems a little unfair to us all.
Valentine
April 24
7:51 am
Hi everyone. This is my first time posting anywhere in Romanceland, but this is a great topic and I really enjoy reading Karen’s blog so I thought what the hell. I remember reading somewhere Karen gets annoyed with long posts (probably right here), but I’ve never posted before so this is long
Sorry Karen….
To Katiebabs: I’ll be purchasing your F/F romance as soon as it’s out. Like Karen, I admire and applaud your efforts to bring something different. Thank You.
Issues like these, as well as African American romance in relation to the “Average Jane Reader” can get really frustrating. And to be honest, it’s mostly due to the responses on these topics on various sites.
Romance readers say it’s all about the fantasy and that’s why they can’t relate to F/F stories, yet then they say they read romance for the emotional journey. If that’s the case, then why would the sex of the protagonists matter?
And this whole “relate” thing really confuses me when applied to M/M romance. It’s two men. They don’t want you. They never will. I’m not saying this in a shitty way, just wondering how you can “relate” and force yourself into the fantasy when it so directly excludes you? Don’t get me wrong, I read M/M myself. I’m just trying to understand how readers are able to “relate” to men who don’t want them because they can “relate” to being attracted to a man, but can’t “relate” to a woman wanting another woman. Seems like the fantasy part of F/F would kick in in the form of flattery or being the object of desire. So one of the protagonist must want a man? That’s all it takes to be “relatable”?
And then I wonder if it could just be all the bland, uninteresting heroines we read about over and over again in romance. You know, the place holder chicks. Usually, all the compelling and page-turning characterization is reserved for the hero. So who the hell would want to read about not one, but two bland, uninteresting heroines in a romance? If that’s the case, I can completely understand.
Could it be age disparity? A case of older romance readers still clinging to the traditional? I see so many younger, F/F couples. I wonder if those types of stories wouldn’t be more appealing to a younger crowd, where a pairing like this is seen as the norm.
On the “Average Jane Reader” and African American romance. This I really don’t get. Again, it’s all about the emotional journey right? So why does the race of the protagonists matter?
Is it because romance readers can’t insert themselves in the place of the heroine if she’s not white? No matter what she may have in common with you? Really? But you can in M/M, where the protagonist are not even your sex and completely uninterested in your sex? Or you can with something paranormal, where the protagonist in question may not even be your species? Simply because they are racially white? Is that all it takes to be “relatable”?
And the heroes. It’s all about the emotional journey right? Or hell, let’s say it’s all about the fantasy. If the hero has all the attributes that make you fall in love and admire him, he needs to be racially white for this to work? To be “relatable?”
I apologize, but can anyone tell how much I hate the word “relate” yet? LOL. Well, I don’t hate the word…I don’t like the way it’s often appied. She/He is not white, so “I can’t relate.” They are lesbians, so “I can’t relate.”
Anyway. Like I mentioned above, this is my first time posting but I’ve been lurking and I’ve already read the following responses to why romance readers don’t read African American romance:
* I only read historicals.
* I don’t buy new books or read books by new authors.
* I buy books based on recommendations.
Right. But if anyone has anything new to offer in the way of a response on either subject (AA romance, F/F romance), I’m interested!
Karen Scott
April 24
1:04 pm
Hi Valentine, thanks for de-lurking.
Personally, I think that when people talk about the ‘emotional journey’ there are sub-conscious conditions attached. The fact is, if readers were truly only all about the ‘emotional journey’ it really wouldn’t make any difference what colour the protagonists were, or what sex they were.
AztecLady
April 24
5:36 pm
I have to agree, Karen–it’s more complicated than just “emotional journey”
I was talking with Issek about this, and we both agreed that while we can (and often do) like the same books, characters and storylines, we look at each of those differently.
As an example, he likes Suzanne Brockmann’s Jules Cassidy and Robin Chadwick as characters, and enjoyed following their story from Hot Target on to Force of Nature and All Through the Night, though he was glad there was little to no graphic description of their sexual lives. Me, I would have liked more graphic sex scenes between them.
Yet, if we are talking female characters, such as Dina and Hit from Ann Aguirre’s Jax novels, our preferences flip.
Valentine
April 24
8:32 pm
Ok. I was basing alot of what I said on what I’ve read on various sites since I discovered the online romance community. There seemed to be alot of emphasis on the emotional journey…nevermind. Thanks for the responses and back to lurking
lesbians, where are the lesbians? « Requires Only That You Hate
December 12
9:03 pm
[...] both are incredibly rapey. But we are talking head-count basis and popularity. There, too, is a prevailing impression that lesbian romance/erotica doesn’t sell as well as M/M (if it sells at all). Submission [...]