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As most of you may have noticed, Jane’s rather light-hearted Romantic Times conference recap got hi-jacked by one of the Mr Romance contestants after he took exception to….. erm….ahh who the fuck knows?

If I’m honest, his story changed so many times that I’m pretty confused about what his actual problem was.

Anyway, this post isn’t really about him.

Blogger, Sidhe Vicious wrote a long and rambling rant, firstly sympathising with Antonio Angeletti’s plight, having been sexually abused by a bunch of “disgusting drunk fat women”. (She swears blind her rant wasn’t aimed at anybody specifically, but we all know how that works.) Admittedly the use of the quote was slightly out of context, but I think you get the gist.

Anyway, she was also incensed about people treating Angeletti like shit, just because he was a stripper. I’m not even sure that holds any water seeing as the readers and commenters were perfectly fine with that other RT contestant, Andrew something-or-other. Maybe because he came across as lucid and rational, who knows?

Sidhe wrote:

Can I just say that I am truly disappointed in the human race today… I feel terrible for all the Mr. Romantic Times contestants, models, strippers, etc. Whether or not these men are paid to be there to entertain in whatever capacity they are, there is no excuse to treat any of them like a piece of meat! Sure, maybe there are 1 or 2 in every bunch who’s actions may invite it, but again, do not judge them all by that one or two individuals actions.

I consider myself pretty liberal-minded about most things, however there are some things that I refuse to be all lily-livered about. And strippers who bitch about being treated like pieces of meat are one of them.

I understand the concept of live and let live, and basically I’m all for that, but I’m also realistic enough to know that we live in a world full of people who think nothing of judging others based on the way they look, the colour of their skin, their religion, their size, and a whole host of things that is beyond our control. People being judged because of what they do for a job is just a drop in the ocean, and really shouldn’t be a surprise to anybody. The good thing is, at least one’s job or career is something that can be controlled.

The fact is, I’m honest enough to admit that if I met somebody and they told me that they strip off in bars etc, for a living, I am going to judge them. I may even assume that they have loose morals. Unfair, I know, but I’m being honest.

On the other hand, if I met somebody for the first time, and they told me that they were in the medical profession, I’d probably automatically assume that they were decent human beings who live to help others.

Of course it may be that the stripper is actually working his/her way through medical college and stripping is a way that ensures that his/her colleague fees are paid, and it may be that the medical professional is a drunk who beats kids, but seriously, I’ve only just met these people so I’m hardly going to be looking too far beneath the surface.

In my opinion, if you take your clothes off for a living, the likelihood is, people are going to treat you like a piece of meat at one point or another. You can’t have people stuffing money into your bra or down your trousers whilst you take your clothes off in front of them, without those people making certain assumptions about you. That’s just not fucking realistic. It might not be fair, but come on, since when was life fair?

I spent over 20 years working in bars and have seen my share of Ladies Nights with male dancers. Let me tell you, there is NOTHING lady-like about the women who go to see male dancers! More like a pack of ravening wolves. Many times I was embarrassed to even be a female after witnessing this behaviour.

I may not have spent twenty years working in bars, but I have witnessed the odd strip-show (Seeing The Dream Boys and The Chippendales were really not the highlight of my life, talk about dull, dull, dull!) and the women who behave in an unladylike manner are usually being egged on by the strippers themselves. I saw my first strip show about fifteen years ago, and I’ll never forget how horrified I was that the strippers picked women out of the crowd and got them to eat bananas out of their thongs. I remember being picked out, by one of the strippers, and telling him to fuck off in no uncertain terms. (I really didn’t want to be there, and my usual tact and diplomacy had left me by then).

Sidhe talks about being disgusted by the ladies who go to see male dancers, seemingly forgetting that without those unlady-like women, the male dancers that she wants to defend so vigourously would probably be out of work.

I’m fascinated by the fact that she’s so keen on placing the blame on the people who go to watch the dancers, rather than on the dancers who choose to earn a buck that way. In my opinion, you either blame none of them, or you blame both of them.

Then I see people dumping on this guy Antonio for trying to explain his side of the story. It just really pisses me off that just because he’s 1) a man and 2) a dancer/stripper that he gets disrespected or even worse made to feel like he’s less of a person because of his job.

Urrggh. The thing is, here in Blogland, if you come across all troll-like, with guns blazing, changing your story every two minutes, accusing people of sexually harassing you in one breath, then recanting the accusation in the next, you’re gonna be duly mocked, regardless of what you do for a living. That’s true equal opportunity for you.

I’ve known a lot of strippers over the years and the majority of them are just trying to make a buck. Trying to put themselves through school, trying to pay off loans, trying to support their children, trying to get by in an economy that sucks.

For whatever reason they are doing this job, they get lumped into a lower class citizen category and even worse, they are treated as such. They are treated as unintelligent, as egotistical, as unfeeling hunks of “beef” and as promiscuous. Why is that? It boils down to jealousy as far as I can tell and jealousy makes people behave despicably.

Urrgghh. This is such liberal bullshit, it makes my skin crawl. And that’s coming from a moderate left-winger. Stripping isn’t a noble art that deserves respect. It just isn’t. It’s a controversial way of making money. It’s still considered a form of public nudity and as such is subject to legal and cultural contraints on moral and decency grounds.
Just this year in fact, stripping was fully banned in Iceland.

Perhaps strippers are treated like unintelligent and egotistical, unfeeling hunks of beef, and that may be totally unfair, but I can see how those assumptions are come by. As for the whole ‘stripping to get by’ thing? Don’t some porn stars and prostitutes use the same excuse? I’m sorry, but I’ve known people who were on the breadline, people who didn’t have a bean to their name – those people took cleaning jobs, they scrubbed toilets, they didn’t choose to take their clothes of in front of complete strangers.

If people want strip for a living, then by all means they should be able to, without coming to any harm, but they really shouldn’t be surprised if people judge them and treat them like commodities for sale. It’s not ideal, but it’s the way of the world.

What say you?

32 Comments »


  • Lori
    May 8
    9:44 pm

    And had it been a woman complaining about being ogled or groped as she worked as a stripper would the same women defend her?

    Getting your panties in a bunch because a man sobbed about being treated like *ahem* a woman does, really isn’t going to make me want to defend him. I don’t put my stuff out there to be looked at and then cry because it is looked at. Sorry.

    Mr. Man-Titty had some serious issues. And a woman who defends him by slamming “disgusting drunk fat women” has an issue with women.

    Blech to both of them.

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  • LVLM
    May 8
    10:14 pm

    I read that whole thread with Antonio on DA and I could give a crap that he’s a stripper. I felt he got slammed because he’s a shady flake, like you said, changing his story all the time. It seemed he wanted to use that whole situation to promote and defend himself, while trying to trash out some authors. That, is what I thought was not too honorable. He came across as a whiny cry baby who was taken advantage of when he said later later he wasn’t forced.

    I think if he wanted respect then he shouldn’t have let women lick his pecks. I think someone who strips on stage as a stage personality can act with dignity off stage and people will treat them accordingly. He was fine with taking off his shirt and having pics taken. If he didn’t want to be treated like a piece of meat then he could have declined and said he only does such things on stage.

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  • Anon76
    May 8
    10:14 pm

    Okay, male or female, rather than have tips left on the table ala a food server job, tips go in the g-string. And after gyrating around enough to earn that tip.

    Sorry, if you get labeled meat, well it should be expected. You don’t see audiences slipping dollar bills in ballet dancers tutus and tights, do you? Different genre, different outcome.

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  • Honestly at this point, with this mess, that I don’t even KNOW what to think.

    No, I don’t think anybody, regardless, of the job SHOULD be treated as a piece of meat… BUT… in some lines of work, regardless of right or wrong, it’s going to happen and that’s just life.

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  • Bernita
    May 9
    12:08 am

    “What say you?”
    I say you’ve covered my view point very well.

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  • Las
    May 9
    2:13 am

    Respectable? No.

    Morally questionable? I’m going to have to say no to that, too, because I don’t think “morality” has anything to do with consensual sexuality (with the exception of cheating, of course).

    I mean, I doubt I would seriously date a stripper, and I’ll admit that if you were to tell me you were a stripper I’d probably raise my brows and feel a bit judgmental, but it’s the kind of thing I can easily get over if you’re otherwise an intelligent/interesting/cool person. I’ve met too many people and have had too many experiences to base my opinion about a person on what they do for a living. There are lots of ways to be smart, and even more ways to be really fucking stupid. Profession means nothing. (Had to learn that one the hard way.)

    I completely agree with this:

    If people want strip for a living, then by all means they should be able to, without coming to any harm, but they really shouldn’t be surprised if people judge them and treat them like commodities for sale. It’s not ideal, but it’s the way of the world.

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  • Janet W
    May 9
    2:23 am

    No one should comment on this without taking a few secs to find out why Iceland banned stripping … I was so impressed by the thoughtfulness of the arguments against it*: I listened to the stories on National Public Radio.

    * basically because of the fall-out on the community. I think that’s a fair way to sum it up. And the women workers were exploited and lastly the services they offered (of the lap dance variety) were more along the lines of prostitution. Which was not what the strip club owners promised.

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  • I look at stripping as a job. There are always going to be sleezebags in any professional be it teaching, the church, medicine or admin and it’s not dependant on what clothes stay on. As for the rants and dramas in blogland – storm in a tea cup…or d-cup or maybe G string in this case…tomorrow will bring another drama we can all analyse.

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  • There are always going to be sleezebags in any professional be it teaching, the church, medicine or admin and it’s not dependant on what clothes stay on.

    You’re dead on there.

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  • I am not going to continue to do this “back and forth” of quoting and replying to each others statements, as it appears you and I pretty much disagree on virtually everything! That’s fine. I am good with just agreeing to disagree with you.

    What really boils my blood though is the fact that you persist in taking my words, or should I say portions of my words, and twisting them to imply that they mean things they do not. And you do this with the intent to malign my character. I believe that you thrive on self-created confrontation as evidenced by your comments on D.A.’s blog, my blog and here in your post.

    If you get off on cutting down other people, judging them and justify treating them as less deserving of respect than you, then all the power to you. Karma is a bitch.

    @lori: Yes, I would indeed defend a woman had it been a woman who had “been complaining about being ogled or groped”. Not that that’s what Antonio was actually complaining about to begin with. Maybe you should have read my post and the comments before making statements as to what I was or was not defending in fact before spouting off about me.

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  • Michelle
    May 9
    4:07 pm

    The one who I thought got dragged through the mud was Lora Leigh. The guy acted like a lame moron and got treated as such. Reminded me of “keep silent and appear foolish, open your mouth and remove all doubt”.

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  • it appears you and I pretty much disagree on virtually everything!

    It would certainly seem that way.

    What really boils my blood though is the fact that you persist in taking my words, or should I say portions of my words, and twisting them to imply that they mean things they do not.

    Oh you mean the part where you used the words “disgusting drunk fat women”. I already said that my use was out of context, but the fact is, the words are still yours, and for the sake of fairness, here’s what you said in full:

    So freakin what if some of the men are short? There are short, tall, fat, young, old, skinny women too. Do you see those men blogging about all the disgusting drunk fat women who grope them like meat? NO.

    Do you feel better now?

    And you do this with the intent to malign my character.

    Yes honey, because this post was personal attack on you, rather than an attempt to refute some of the points you made.

    If you get off on cutting down other people, judging them and justify treating them as less deserving of respect than you, then all the power to you. Karma is a bitch.

    I get the feeling that you’re feeling a tad sensitive right now? I know you think that this is a personal thing against you, but believe me when I tell you that it really isn’t. It’s just my usual modus operandi. If I disagree with somebody, I’m going to say so, and not only that, I’m fine with naming names. It’s much more honest than writing a ‘rant’ where you pretend that your comments aren’t aimed at anybody in particular, when your entire post suggests otherwise. Deny it all you want, but you’re wasting your breath with me. I’m sorry.

    I believe that you thrive on self-created confrontation as evidenced by your comments on D.A.’s blog, my blog and here in your post.

    So pleased you figured that out so quickly.

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  • These cons always seem to cause some completely pointless battle to see who is more morally questionable. Yawn.

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  • Oh you mean the part where you used the words “disgusting drunk fat women”. I already said that my use was out of context, but the fact is, the words are still yours, and for the sake of fairness, here’s what you said in full:

    And then you go on to imply:

    (She swears blind her rant wasn’t aimed at anybody specifically, but we all know how that works.) Admittedly the use of the quote was slightly out of context, but I think you get the gist.

    Actally, no, they don’t get the gist of what I was saying. What they get the “gist” of is in fact your twisted version of it. So don’t try to say that you aren’t twisting my words when it’s blatantly clear that you are! If one reads my whole post or even the whole paragraph, it’s very clear that I NEVER referred to the women at RT or to “all women” as “disgusting drunk fat women” as you so persistantly continue to imply. Nor did I ever state that ALL the women who go to see strippers are “disgusting drunk fat women”, but you imply that this was my meaning as well. Do not read more into my words than what is there.

    Yes honey, because this post was personal attack on you, rather than an attempt to refute some of the points you made.

    My whole point is that you are attempting to refute points that weren’t in fact made by me, what you’re actually arguing against is your twisted version of my points.

    I get the feeling that you’re feeling a tad sensitive right now? I know you think that this is a personal thing against you, but believe me when I tell you that it really isn’t. It’s just my usual modus operandi. If I disagree with somebody, I’m going to say so, and not only that, I’m fine with naming names. It’s much more honest than writing a ‘rant’ where you pretend that your comments aren’t aimed at anybody in particular, when your entire post suggests otherwise. Deny it all you want, but you’re wasting your breath with me. I’m sorry.

    No honey, I’m not feeling “a tad bit sensitive right now”. I have no issue with you naming names or with you disagreeing with my point of view. It’s the way in which you do it, with such vindictive, derogatory, malicious, judgemental intent! I do NOT “pretend that my comments aren’t aimed at anybody in particular, when your entire post suggests otherwise.” That’s total bullshit, and if you could look past your own inflated opinion of the the whole matter and actually read what I’m saying in my post & comments, then you would see that. Or not. Trust me, if I had wanted to name names or point fingers, I would do so. I just don’t get off on pointing fingers at individuals when it was some of the comments following the blog posts, or the “whole thing” that left a bad impression on me.

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  • I am not going to continue to do this “back and forth” of quoting and replying to each others statements,

    It would seem that you’ve decided to get down to my level after all. I knew you couldn’t resist.

    Nor did I ever state that ALL the women who go to see strippers are “disgusting drunk fat women”, but you imply that this was my meaning as well. Do not read more into my words than what is there.

    I’ll tell you what, seeing as you’re so adamant that you weren’t referring to any of the women at RT, I’ll take your word for it, ok?

    My whole point is that you are attempting to refute points that weren’t in fact made by me, what you’re actually arguing against is your twisted version of my points.

    So the quotes aren’t yours? I made them up? I know that you’re feeling pretty defensive about your “disgusting drunk fat women” comment, but seriously, are you actually denying that the rest of the quotes were not in context?

    Here’s the thing, the parts of your post that I disagree with the most are the parts that I’ve highlighted and have commented on. That’s kind of how I generally work.

    I posted my opinions about your opinions, (just like you posted your opinions about other people’s opinions) that’s all. You can talk about me misquoting you for my own nefarious reasons, but I’m pretty sure that the majority of people who read that part of your post assumed that you were referring the RT ladies. Surely you must see how easy it would have been to come to that conclusion? It may have not been your intention to slag them off, but funnily enough, that was my interpretation. Your words seemed pretty disdainful to me, and you were doing that thing that people often do, where they attempt to elevate their own status by appearing to be on the side of the ‘underdog’, whilst slyly sticking the knife into another group of people.

    You deny that those words were aimed at the RT women, and I believe you, but the fact is, it’s pretty easy to misinterpret the written word, and see something that isn’t there, don’t you think?

    No honey, I’m not feeling “a tad bit sensitive right now”.

    Of course you are, but that’s ok, you’re entitled to feel miffed and sensitive.

    It’s the way in which you do it, with such vindictive, derogatory, malicious, judgemental intent!

    Now you’re just trying to hurt my tender feelings.

    and if you could look past your own inflated opinion of the the whole matter and actually read what I’m saying in my post & comments, then you would see that. Or not.

    Right back at ya.

    Trust me, if I had wanted to name names or point fingers, I would do so.

    That’s good to hear, I’m impressed.

    I just don’t get off on pointing fingers at individuals when it was some of the comments following the blog posts, or the “whole thing” that left a bad impression on me.

    Erm… so… let’s see if I can decipher what the above means. You weren’t pointing fingers at “individuals”, because it was the comments (made by individuals I presume, but whatever) that made you mad and left a bad impression on you? Sorry, that was Greek to me.

    You need to unwad your knickers SV. I’m only doing what you were doing with your post. Making judgements on other people making judgements. You see how that works?

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  • It would seem that you’ve decided to get down to my level after all. I knew you couldn’t resist.

    LOL. Sadly, this is true. What can I say, you bring out the best in me.

    I’ll tell you what, seeing as you’re so adamant that you weren’t referring to any of the women at RT, I’ll take your word for it, ok?

    Again, you’re saying that I said something that I did not. I never said ALL of the women at RT in my post, like you’ve implied, nor did I say NONE of the women at RT in my post. Obviously there were a few women and probably a few men too at RT who did treat some of those men like meat, or there wouldn’t have been an issue to begin with. As I also stated, my rant was directed at any and all individuals, at RT or not, who think that it’s ok to treat another human being like dirt because of what they do for a living. I’m sure they know who they are. But the point is that the post wasn’t written with those few women at RT in mind. It was written to anyone and everyone, everywhere who has that attitude.

    As far as the “disgusting, drunk, fat women” comment goes, it was never directed specifically at the women who attended RT, like you’ve implied, or at every woman who goes to see a male revue strip show, which you’ve also implied. I shouldn’t have to spell it all out as it’s pretty obvious that there are usually a few of those anywhere you go where alcohol is served, just like there are disgusting, drunk, fat men wherever alcohol is served. There are also disgusting drunk skinny men and women and disgusting drunk old/young men and women too. Pretty much anyone who gets drunk has the potential to be disgusting no?

    The reason I even included that description in my rant was to point out that I’m sure there are more than a few male dancers who see some of their customers that way and you don’t see them blogging/bitching about it in a public forum. And that is the ONLY reason I used the phrase. In that context. Period. There is nothing more or less behind my saying it, so no, I’m not feeling defensive about having said that. I’m just trying to make you understand the context in which it was used, which is a bit like pulling teeth.

    So the quotes aren’t yours? I made them up? I know that you’re feeling pretty defensive about your “disgusting drunk fat women” comment, but seriously, are you actually denying that the rest of the quotes were not in context?

    Oh yes, you did in fact copy and paste PARTS of my post in yours. Nor did I say that you made them up. What’s not in “context” is the way that you present them and twist the meaning of them. If read as part of a whole, then they don’t come off as you portray them to be.

    Here’s the thing, the parts of your post that I disagree with the most are the parts that I’ve highlighted and have commented on. That’s kind of how I generally work.

    I posted my opinions about your opinions, (just like you posted your opinions about other people’s opinions) that’s all.

    No it isn’t all you’re doing. If that were all you were doing, I would have no problem with it. You are more than entitled to your opinion whether it differs from mine or not. What you are doing is putting words in my mouth and implying that I mean things that I haven’t stated.

    You can talk about me misquoting you for my own nefarious reasons, but I’m pretty sure that the majority of people who read that part of your post assumed that you were referring the RT ladies. Surely you must see how easy it would have been to come to that conclusion? It may have not been your intention to slag them off, but funnily enough, that was my interpretation. Your words seemed pretty disdainful to me, and you were doing that thing that people often do, where they attempt to elevate their own status by appearing to be on the side of the ‘underdog’, whilst slyly sticking the knife into another group of people.

    You deny that those words were aimed at the RT women, and I believe you, but the fact is, it’s pretty easy to misinterpret the written word, and see something that isn’t there, don’t you think?

    I’m pretty sure that the majority of the people who read MY WHOLE POST were pretty clear as to what it was and wasn’t about. So far, you seem to be the only person who’s had trouble grasping the post as a whole. So no, I don’t see how easy it was to come to that conclusion. In fact, I’m still shaking my head wondering at why it’s been so difficult for you to grasp even after all the back and forth comments between us? No, it wasn’t my intention to “slag them off” and I’m sorry if that’s the way you took it.
    My words were “disdainful” towards anyone with the prevalent attitude that I was ranting about, and they still are.
    And here you go again, implying what I supposedly did:

    and you were doing that thing that people often do, where they attempt to elevate their own status by appearing to be on the side of the ‘underdog’, whilst slyly sticking the knife into another group of people.

    You could not be more wrong. I simply stated my opinion about how wrong I think it is to treat another human being like “meat” or like “dirt” because of what they do for a living. That they deserve to be given just as much respect as anyone else. THIS is where you’re “nefarious” intent comes into play. Comments like that, where you imply that I’ve done something or meant something that I did not. Actually, you don’t even imply it, you come right out and say that “you know”, that this is what I was doing!?
    You also wrote:

    Stripping isn’t a noble art that deserves respect. It just isn’t.

    Where did I ever state that “stripping was a noble art”? Guess what, neither is waiting tables or scrubbing toilets! My rant was never about regarding stripping as a noble profession, which just goes to show how “out of context”, you take my words. My rant was about how wrong I think it is to treat another human being like “meat” or like “dirt” because of what they do for a living. That they deserve to be given just as much respect as anyone else. That’s all.

    Erm… so… let’s see if I can decipher what the above means. You weren’t pointing fingers at “individuals”, because it was the comments (made by individuals I presume, but whatever) that made you mad and left a bad impression on you? Sorry, that was Greek to me.

    You need to unwad your knickers SV. I’m only doing what you were doing with your post. Making judgements on other people making judgements. You see how that works?

    Let me spell it out for you… It’s become quite apparent to me that no matter what I say or how I say it, that it’s going to remain “Greek” to you because you don’t want to even try to understand what I’m SAYING. Not what you think I’m “implying”, or “saying dishonestly” or “underhandedly”, which seems to be your modus operandi.
    My “knickers” are not in a wad, although it’s apparent that you would like them to be. And you most assuredly are not doing in your post, what I was doing in my post.
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  • eggs
    May 10
    10:38 am

    Karen could bait people with “vindictive, derogatory, malicious, judgemental intent”, but why would she bother when she can reel them in just as easily with calm, logical, and incisive commentary?

    I agree with Karen’s basic premise: we all instinctively make judgments about people based on their jobs. Some people are both toilet scrubbers and authors. Some people are both doctors and abortionists. Some people are both engineers and arms manufacturers. Some people are both PhD students and prostitutes. Some people are both dancers and strippers. All of these are valid, legal career choices where I’m posting from, yet it’s not difficult for us to guess which career they would identify themselves by if asked “So, what do you do?” at a cocktail party.

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  • I’m pretty sure that the majority of the people who read MY WHOLE POST were pretty clear as to what it was and wasn’t about. So far, you seem to be the only person who’s had trouble grasping the post as a whole.

    I think it’s ironic that you wrote the above, because you’re the one who seems to have only read one paragraph in the whole of my original post. The post really isn’t about you, that’s something that you’ve failed to grasp. I was exploring the wider issue of how people naturally react to people who strip for a living. Somehow, that seems to have escaped you completely, so I guess that means you’re having trouble with my Greek then huh?

    Again, you’re saying that I said something that I did not. I never said ALL of the women at RT in my post, like you’ve implied, nor did I say NONE of the women at RT in my post.

    SV, haven’t we already settled this issue? You’re doing that Greek thing again.

    Obviously there were a few women and probably a few men too at RT who did treat some of those men like meat, or there wouldn’t have been an issue to begin with.

    So who exactly was being treated like meat then? You say “obviously” like there are hard facts to back up your supposition, but seeing as the original complainant took back his original embellishment, I’m not sure what’s so obvious about it. Were there shenanigans going on? I have no doubt that there probably was, but after reading some of the accounts, I’m pretty sure it was a case of six of one and half-a-dozen of the other.
    If a group of women asked one of the strippers to bare his chest when he was merely going about his business, does that mean he has to? If somebody asked you to get your tits out for the lads for some fun, would you? What I’m saying is, the ladies may have gotten over-exuberant, but I’m pretty sure none of them were holding the strippers/models at gunpoint, in an attempt to get them to bare their manly parts.

    As far as the “disgusting, drunk, fat women” comment goes, it was never directed specifically at the women who attended RT, like you’ve implied, or at every woman who goes to see a male revue strip show, which you’ve also implied.

    Do you get the feeling that you’re repeating yourself?

    But the point is that the post wasn’t written with those few women at RT in mind. It was written to anyone and everyone, everywhere who has that attitude.

    Again with the repetition, but as it happens my entire post was disagreeing with that train of thought. The train of thought that presumes that everybody who judges a person based on the fact that they strip for a living are unfeeling oafs who should be shot. (Paraphrasing my dear, merely paraphrasing)

    The reason I even included that description in my rant was to point out that I’m sure there are more than a few male dancers who see some of their customers that way and you don’t see them blogging/bitching about it in a public forum.

    Oh, is this about the bit where Jane pointed out that the only thing she remembered about one of the Mr Romance blokes was that he was short? Because I have to tell you, I haven’t come across any other blogs denigrating these men. Have you any links for me, and I’ll go and see for myself? And really, do you think using the term “disgusting drunk fat women” (no matter that it was aparently a generalisation) is the same as being called “short”? Really???

    You could not be more wrong. I simply stated my opinion about how wrong I think it is to treat another human being like “meat” or like “dirt” because of what they do for a living. That they deserve to be given just as much respect as anyone else.

    And funnily enough, I stated my opinion disagreeing with your opinion. If you endeavoured to move past those five lines that seem to have you all hot and bothered, you’d probably see the wood for the trees, yes?

    THIS is where you’re “nefarious” intent comes into play. Comments like that, where you imply that I’ve done something or meant something that I did not.

    And we’re back to repeating ourselves.

    My “knickers” are not in a wad, although it’s apparent that you would like them to be. And you most assuredly are not doing in your post, what I was doing in my post.

    Of course they’re in a wad. You think that I wrote a whole post maligning your character, so of course you’re annoyed. Human nature dictates that if you weren’t all sweaty under the collar, you wouldn’t be trying so hard to get your point across.

    I already told you that I believed that you weren’t trying to slag off those RT women, (even though I still think that it was easy to assume the latter) but yet here you are still whining about those five lines.

    Listen, I believe you felt that you were standing up for the underdog (AKA strippers everywhere), however I disagreed with the basic premise of your post. You were quite clearly berating everybody who would be so graceless as to judge a stripper for being a stripper, and I was saying that I fully understand those people (most human beings like yours truly) whose default setting would be the judgemental one. It seems simple enough to me, although I realise that being the bastion of all that is just and good, you’d judge two people – one who told you that he was a nuclear physicist and one who told you that he was a rent boy – exactly the same. I truly envy you the ability to see beyond the trappings of human prejudices. You are so my hero.

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  • Not to break up the love fest between Karen and Sidhe here, but I just wanted to sneak my opinion in. I don’t personally have any problem with strippers (in fact, in my younger, much thinner days I did a bit of dancing myself and I’m not at all ashamed of it), but for a stripper to get offended at being seen as a sexual object/objectified is…well, dumb. Strippers are entertainment, a sexual form of entertainment (no one goes to see them do ballet), so to be offended that people think of you in a sexual way and treat you as such…isn’t that the point?

    I’m not personally going to judge anyone I meet who says they’re a stripper, but to complain about being objectified when it’s pretty much the entire point of the job is silly. Now, if someone is out of their job setting then I think the rules change, but none of those men at RT were out of the job setting. They were in it, they were pretty (some of them I guess people find attractive) bare chests and not meant to be much else in terms of a job. Were they there in some other capacity that I’m unaware of? I don’t think so. They’re eye candy. They get treated as eye candy. To expect otherwise is, again, silly. In the Denny’s on Route 1 weeks after RT they’re no longer eye candy, they’re just folk, and then I’d have issue with someone treating them like hunks of meat. But in the capacity they attended RT, hunks is exactly what they were hired to be.

    I don’t, however, think that being eye candy gives anyone a right to touch. Eye candy, not hand and mouth candy, people.

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  • Lori
    May 10
    1:40 pm

    God, I love this blog. If I wasn’t a disgusting, drunk fat bitch I’d get pregnant and name my kid Karen.

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  • I think it’s ironic that you wrote the above, because you’re the one who seems to have only read one paragraph in the whole of my original post. The post really isn’t about you,

    Oh do you now? Because you wrote this:

    Anyway, this post isn’t really about him.

    Blogger, Sidhe Vicious wrote a long and rambling rant, firstly sympathising with Antonio Angeletti’s plight, having been sexually abused by a bunch of “disgusting drunk fat women”. (She swears blind her rant wasn’t aimed at anybody specifically, but we all know how that works.) Admittedly the use of the quote was slightly out of context, but I think you get the gist.

    Anyway, she was also incensed about people treating Angeletti like shit, just because he was a stripper.

    So I would say that your entire post is in fact about me and what I wrote. And might I add that my rant is no “longer” or “rambling” than yours! And might I also add that your description of what my post was about, “firstly sympathising with Antonio Angeletti’s plight, having been sexually abused by a bunch of “disgusting drunk fat women”, is WAY OFF and goes to prove just how much you twist my words around! Nowhere in my post do I state that. That entire sentence that you wrote is comprised of bits and peices that you’ve taken from my post and twisted around to mean something I never said.

    I was exploring the wider issue of how people naturally react to people who strip for a living.

    LMAO, no, you were riffing on my blog/opinion/rant, plain and simple. But that’s ok, you’re entitled to feel any way you want about what I wrote.

    So who exactly was being treated like meat then? You say “obviously” like there are hard facts to back up your supposition, but seeing as the original complainant took back his original embellishment, I’m not sure what’s so obvious about it.

    Now you’re the one who’s repeating herself. First of all, Antonio never “complained about being treated like meat”. It is a fact that he was invited up to a room where he was told that if he took some shirtless photos he’d get more votes. What he did complain about is that someone tried to use those photos that he was talked into taking against him to try and have him disqualified from the competition. He never “embellished” the situation up in that room. Go back and read his comments, I have.
    I am the one who’s complaining about these men being treated like pieces of meat. Get your facts straight girl!

    If a group of women asked one of the strippers to bare his chest when he was merely going about his business, does that mean he has to? If somebody asked you to get your tits out for the lads for some fun, would you? What I’m saying is, the ladies may have gotten over-exuberant, but I’m pretty sure none of them were holding the strippers/models at gunpoint, in an attempt to get them to bare their manly parts.

    Nobody ever said that he “had to”, but what you fail to grasp is that THIS was never the issue! Who cares if he took his shirt off? A man taking his shirt off is NOT the same as a woman doing it, so to compare the two is ludicrous. He took issue with the fun/innocent photos being used against him. Also, why in the hell would he have had a problem with taking his shirt off for a few photos when that’s what he had been doing as part of his duties for EC to begin with? It’s not like they asked him to remove his pants.

    Do you get the feeling that you’re repeating yourself?

    Yes, yes I do! It could have something to do with the fact that you’ve utterly and completely failed to get what I’m saying and that you continue to misinterpret it.

    Oh, is this about the bit where Jane pointed out that the only thing she remembered about one of the Mr Romance blokes was that he was short? Because I have to tell you, I haven’t come across any other blogs denigrating these men. Have you any links for me, and I’ll go and see for myself? And really, do you think using the term “disgusting drunk fat women” (no matter that it was aparently a generalisation) is the same as being called “short”? Really???

    No, it has nothing to do with what Jane did or did not write. Talk about repitition! You are so focused on my one little description of “fat, disgusting drunk women”. Why is that? It’s you who can’t see past those four little words. Where do I try to compare the two descriptors? Where do I justify using that descriptor in comparison to “short”? Seriously Karen, get over it.

    And funnily enough, I stated my opinion disagreeing with your opinion. If you endeavoured to move past those five lines that seem to have you all hot and bothered, you’d probably see the wood for the trees, yes?

    Now you’re talking Greek again because it’s startlingly obvious that you didn’t just disagree with my opinion. You took pieces of my words, twisted them to mean something completely different, and that (your twisted version), is what you’re disagreeing with.

    so of course you’re annoyed. Human nature dictates that if you weren’t all sweaty under the collar, you wouldn’t be trying so hard to get your point across.

    You’re one to talk! I defended my post over on my blog, and I’m defending it yet again over here on your blog. You made your opinion very clear over in the comments at Jane’s blog, in your comments on my blog and with your dissemination, mixed up as it may be, of my post here on your own blog.

    You were quite clearly berating everybody who would be so graceless as to judge a stripper for being a stripper

    Glad to see that my annoying “repitition” has finally begun to sink in.

    and I was saying that I fully understand those people (most human beings like yours truly) whose default setting would be the judgemental one. It seems simple enough to me

    One would think so. I also stated in my comments over on my blog that I’m well aware that a lot of people do view strippers as a piece of meat, in fact, that’s pretty much what my whole rant was based on. The fact that it’s not cool to do so.
    And that is not ALL you were saying. Not here, not there, not anywhere! You have made a valiant attempt to to rip my rant/opinion to shreds and spit it out the other side by taking bits of my post and twisting them around. This hasn’t worked, move on.

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  • Anon76
    May 10
    5:59 pm

    What has me all confused is…when did this dude decide that he wanted to be a romance cover model?

    I mean, yeah, he was asked to be in the competition at the last minute, but what aspirations for that job did he have before he stepped through those doors as a hired beef cake? (And people can take offense to that term all they want, but we are talking EC here. They kicked out CJ Hollenbach when he tried to reign in some of the craziness going on at a previous RT convention.)

    And…he knew full well that doing those pics might not be kosher for the competition. When you come out and ask that the pics not be shared for that very reason, then you have a basic understanding of the rules, no matter the claims otherwise.

    So, again, when did this guy decide he wanted to be a romance cover model?

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  • […] great debate continues! I wrote this post the other week on a controversial issue to which blogger Karen took exception. I know, I can imagine you all thinking “don’t get into an argument […]


  • So I would say that your entire post is in fact about me and what I wrote. And might I add that my rant is no “longer” or “rambling” than yours!

    You’re wrong of course. You just think that this post is about you, when actually the title hints at the subject matter. However, since you don’t want to take my word for it, I’ll stick to believing that you were indeed referring to the RT women when you used the now infamous “disgusting drunk fat women” comment. How’s that? You keep believing that this post was a malicious way to get at you, and I’ll keep believing that you called the RT women fat drunks. Does that work better for you? It totally works for me.

    LMAO, no, you were riffing on my blog/opinion/rant, plain and simple.

    Hey, at least I didn’t slag off a bunch of women like you did, ha!!

    I am the one who’s complaining about these men being treated like pieces of meat. Get your facts straight girl!

    Oh yeah, because you’re such a huge proponent of getting facts straight.

    Talk about repitition! You are so focused on my one little description of “fat, disgusting drunk women”. Why is that? It’s you who can’t see past those four little words. Where do I try to compare the two descriptors? Where do I justify using that descriptor in comparison to “short”? Seriously Karen, get over it.

    Are you still mad because you labelled those women at RT as “fat disgusting drunk women”? Don’t worry about it, they’ll get over it, me on the other hand, I’m very angry on their behalf. In fact I’m so mad about your misogynistic labels that I may just grab a placard, don a military jacket, remove the nail varnish from my beautifully manicured nails, give myself a buzzcut, chain myself to your gate, and not move until you say you’re sorry to those poor, poor women that you maligned so tragically.

    Yes, yes I do! It could have something to do with the fact that you’ve utterly and completely failed to get what I’m saying and that you continue to misinterpret it.

    It’s such a shame isn’t it?

    You have made a valiant attempt to to rip my rant/opinion to shreds and spit it out the other side by taking bits of my post and twisting them around.

    Why thank you. You’re complimenting me right?

    This hasn’t worked, move on.

    Of course it’s worked, you’re still here, keeping me company, why on earth would I want to move on?

    But hey, at least I didn’t call those women, “fat disgusting drunks”. That means I can claim that higher ground that you’re so fond of.

    Oh yeah, I can practically feel the halo forming on top of my head.

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  • I have to say that this is more amusing than anything else at this point. You can be condescending and rude, yet I find you to be witty and funny as hell at the same time. (And I’m not claiming to be an angel here either. I too can be all of those things).

    Obviously you and I are the “oil and water” of this issue and we completely disagree with pretty much everything the other has said. That’s cool. I can live with that.

    It’s pointless to continue arguing the specifics anymore when we’ve already established that I think it’s not cool to treat others with less respect than others based on what they do for a living. You think it’s ok to do so.

    It’s been fun verbally sparring with you.

    Cheers,
    Sidhe

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  • You can be condescending and rude

    Thank you. Now I know that’s a compliment.

    It’s been fun verbally sparring with you.

    Back at ya.

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  • God, I love this blog. If I wasn’t a disgusting, drunk fat bitch I’d get pregnant and name my kid Karen.

    Lol, thanks Lori, that makes me feel real special. *g*

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  • Fascinating discussion! The comments are more exciting than the original post!
    I know a single mom who stripped to put food on the table for her kids and pay for law school. Now she’s a district attorney. I know another woman who stripped because she loved the attention and the groping. As she explained to me, more groping, more money. Groping, it would seem, is an occupational hazard.
    I’ve been to a birthday party where somebody hired a male stripper who thrust his naked buttocks in everyone’s face – except me, of course, since I remained huddled in the back. I’m not one to take an up close and personal interest in a stranger’s ass. What can I say? If you put it out there, someone will very likely grab it – especially if there is booze around.

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  • I don’t think stripping is morally questionable, but neither do I think it’s the kind of profession that would made me beam with pride should either of my kids chose it. Further, I would worry about their safety–particularly my daughter’s, for the simple reason that a larger proportion of women are smaller and weaker than men, as a rule, than the other way around, and violence against women, particularly whenever sex is in any way involved, is not a rare crime.

    Does that make me sexist and judgemental?

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  • I’ve been to a birthday party where somebody hired a male stripper who thrust his naked buttocks in everyone’s face

    Heh. I was @ a bachelorette party when I was pregnant with my first child-they had a stripper there. Now, granted, I’m not much for the whole stripper thing-I just don’t see the appeal. Give me a guy in tights jeans over a G-string anyday.

    Anyway, I warned the lady hosting the party that I was cranky (more than normal) and it might do her well to tell the guy to steer clear of me. Either she thought I was exaggerating, she forgot, or he didn’t take the hint.

    He came over and started doing his thing in front of me and I told him to just go away, and he got closer-way too close.

    So…I sort of planted of my foot on his butt. He barely avoided smashing his face on the ground. I’m very big on personal space-very, very big…. O_O

    He turns around and gives me the dirtiest look and I said, “I told you to get away.”

    I’m never in the nicest mood when I’m pregnant anyway… o_O

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  • Shiloh – now that is funny! As an RN, I see so many naked bums…context is everything. And yeah, give me a guy in nice fitting jeans any day. Yum!

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  • Patrice
    May 11
    5:36 pm

    OMG Shi the visual of you booting a strippers bootae is priceless! I can relate. Cranky and not prego around pushy male strippers. I boycotted every bachelorette party for the last 15 years that were centered around male revues. I am not a fan of male or female revue (strip) shows – including any at RT – but simply because personally I do not like the atmosphere at them, nor do I feel comfortable objectifying people. However I am not going to dis anyone who chooses to do that for a living. (internally fight not to pre-judge them, yes) I try to only dis an individual if they prove it’s deserved. LOL Although I have met some of these ladies and gentlemen who were, um less than stellar character and/or intelligence, there have been a few who were genuinely nice and/or smart. I imagine some went on to be successful in different jobs or lifestyles, some did not. I can only relate from that small # of “strippers I’ve known” that example holds true for the larger population. *shrug* I’ve lost track of the original point about RT. RT seems to always inspire some tempest in a teapot. Anyway…

    And on a different but thoroughly irreverent note, I had to giggle at the thought that banning stripping in ICEland seems only logical. I mean, really. And then wondered if the ban angered the volcano gods. *ggg*

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