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Once more with feeling: the misogyny of organized religion.

I posted a couple of days ago about the homophobia of many visible Catholic priests. The absolute lack of connection that the Catholic church has with the real world and the lives of the people within it has motivated many of us to renounce our once-faith.

That is bad enough, right? But for those in the church who cling to the belief that there is something good in the institution, even when some of its leaders are flawed and misguided, we have this:

The Vatican published a report on the Leadership Conference of Women Religious criticizing them for spending too much effort on poverty and social injustice and not enough on their male leadership’s anti-abortion and anti-gay agenda.

Seriously? Is it possible for any institution whose focus are the teachings of Christ to spend too much effort on poverty? Well, paint me purple and call me Herbert.

From the article:

Public disagreement with the bishops — “who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith and morals” — is unacceptable.

The bishops…who are men.

Because women are, you know, inferior and unworthy.

Which is why Pope Benedict, may karma catch up with him soonest, has declared it an impossibility that women would ever be ordained. That would be akin to admitting women are as human beings as men, for goodness sake!

So now some other bishops will take over and rewrite the Conference statues and shit, to make sure the nuns adhere to the letter of the church–Jesus’ actual teachings be damned.

Way to go, assholes, way to go.

 

59 Comments »


  • Jane G
    April 23
    8:39 am

    Wow.

    That sounds quite damning.

    I generally have no fond feelings for the catholic church, but is it possible they were a little misrepresented here?

    ReplyReply

  • God, I hate organised religion with the passion of a thousand angry locusts.

    ReplyReply

  • Yanno, I was actually kind of surprised by this. I totally disagree with the Catholic church on well, pretty much everything, but I’ve always admired their charities. I think they’re total asshats on abortion and birth control, but at least they’ve always put their money where their mouths are. When I was a social woker I knew I could always send a poor family to the Catholic Center of Concern for help paying their rent, utility bill or what have you. They were really in the trenches when it came to poor families. I could always go to them with my homeless pregnant teens had they always had good foster homes, too.

    ReplyReply


  • Mireya
    April 23
    12:58 pm

    Yup, I posted to my FB page about that. I felt like throwing up, that’s how disgusted I am with the “higher ups”. Particularly here, in the US.

    @Jane G: No, it’s not misrepresented. And bear in mind that this pertains to the “higher” levels of the hierarchy. Your ordinary priests, the ones that are dealing on a day to day basis with their parishioners and community issues, are not like that, or at least, the ones that I knew, were not like that.

    The bottom line is that the Catholic Church is involving itself in POLITICS, not what they are supposed to be doing, and now they want the nuns to help them with two issues that not all Catholics agree with.

    Oh, they are going to get it, somehow. Obviously they don’t believe on the BS of heaven and hell that they are so keen on teaching children. If they did, they wouldn’t involve themselves in those issues.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 23
    8:34 pm

    So what is your primary difficulty with the Church?

    ReplyReply


  • Anon 76
    April 23
    8:58 pm

    Bruce,

    Faith, or organized religions as a whole no matter the labels?

    ReplyReply

  • I’m not sure how one can misrepresent organized religion’s misogyny.

    Bruce, if you don’t get it from what I’ve posted, it doesn’t seem likely you’ll ever get it.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    12:02 am

    I’m just curious of something specific you have a difficulty with. It could be something doctrinal or disciplinary..whatever. I was just wondering what was the primary problem.

    Thanks!

    ReplyReply

  • What, the generalized and sanctioned misogyny is not specific enough for you?

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    12:32 am

    Sorry, but it isn’t. Do you have anything specific?

    ReplyReply

  • So a woman who is also a mother of a daughter having an issue with misogyny isn’t specific enough. wow.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    2:56 am

    Well, misogyny is a very broad accusation. I was curious as to know if there were any specific things she had a problem with, within that broad scope.

    If there aren’t any, it would seem to be a baseless accusation, no?

    ReplyReply

  • Well, gee, dog forbid I make a, in your opinion, baseless accusation, no?

    Then again, I think in this case misogyny is like love.

    If you have ever felt it, you don’t need it explained. If you haven’t, no amount of explaining will help you get it.

    ReplyReply

  • Bruce, you’re being obtuse, and there’s nothing more irritating than an obtuse man. If you don’t understand the concept of misogyny, you need to take a hard look at the education you’ve received so far, as something must have clearly gone wrong. Now unless you’re going to contribute in a more meaningful way than standing scratching your balls and asking daft questions, I suggest you scat.

    Of course, you can stay and state whatever point you’re trying to make, but lay off the passive-aggressive, ignorant questions, yes?

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    12:20 pm

    Well, I only asked for a specific complaint. Having received none, I can only assume that there aren’t any. That the accusation is baseless based upon ignorance. That would be bigotry.

    Do you even know enough about the Church to know what it is about her you hate?

    ReplyReply


  • Patrice
    April 24
    12:51 pm

    LOL “Public disagreement with the bishops is unacceptable.” And so it goes, we refight the battles we thought we’d won another day. OMG, I’d be excommunicated if I wasn’t already lapsed! This is just begging for some dark humor. Because God Forbid the nuns or priests do anything unseemly in public! Got to bury that stuff in secrecy. And it just reinforces why I almost got expelled from Catholic HS when I politely offered a logical, written disagreement with the official dogma on birth control about 41 years ago. The Sisters of Mercy ran the school, the nuns “convinced” the bishop it wasn’t necessary to expel me. But the nuns also advised my disagreements had to be more discreet, agree to disagree sort of thing. Which didn’t make sense to me ethically, even at that tender age. It was like an underground movement. I imagine it still exists today. But that was the begining of my schism with Catholicism specifically and organized religion in general. I do credit the excellent education I received from Catholic institutions with giving me the tools to make independent decisions about world religions while remaining true to a spiritual code of ethics. They taught me to think, to question and make knowledge-based decisions. In spite of the Bishops edicts to “shut up”. lol

    The Catholic church will wind up driving even more people away from it with these types of pronouncements from it’s current leaders. As it has done in the past. I have not seen a convent or heard of a USA born priest in my parents church in a decade. They are few and far between.

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  • Patrice
    April 24
    1:08 pm

    @ Bruce – You are being obtuse, insulting and argumentative. She obviously stated her problems. I’m sure she has additional specific issues, but she may not choose to share them with YOU, a perfect stranger. But I’ll tell you a few things, off the top of my head, that I have a problem with Catholic church dogma: the refusal to ordain women or even officially recognize women as any type of officiant of the Mass consistantly throughout the world; the ban on any type of modern, scientific, medically safe birth control; the ban on abortion; the refusal to acknowledge and act on widespread problems with pedophile priests; the ban on gay marriage; the patriarchial hierarchy and all the various levels of conflict the atmosphere of secrecy and “do as I say, or else” mentality of the College of Cardinals, Bishops and Eccumenical Councils have spawned over the last 5 decades. Not to mention the Crusades. I mean really?

    ReplyReply

  • Patrice, thank you.

    However, truth is, as far as I’m concerned, Bruce is trolling here, so he can, you know, feel superior to us wimmin. Good luck with that, asshole.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    3:17 pm

    Not really, AztecLady, for I just asked a simple question, to which I received (still) no response. But I’ll take on Patrice, since she stated something specific, as opposed to mere bigoted generalizations based upon ignorance.

    Lets start with the “refusal” to ordain women.

    If Jesus wanted to ordain women, He most certainly would have ordained women.

    There was a reason that Jesus did not ordain women. And don’t give me that nonsense that the Apostles hid the truth. There is no documentation of any kind to corroborate that. And if the apostles were such scoundrels, why do want ordination to the apostolic succession? Wouldn’t it be beneath you?

    I don’t pretend to know why Jesus chose men for ordination as missionaries (which is what the Greek word “apostle” means). I can hazard a guess, however. Women can do one thing that is much more important than anything men can do. They can be mothers. In saying this, I am not saying simply that they can have babies. They can be mothers whether or not they have ever given birth.

    I think back on powerful and beautiful women I have known who were spiritual mothers to me. Sr. Mary Lucy who taught me in fourth grade, Sr. Mary Agnes who taught me the Church Fathers and fought for my ordination when it looked doubtful, Mrs. Helen Twomey who never ceased to pray for my vocation, and my own mother Helen Marie Simon. I have never known a human being who mirrored the love and mercy of God more perfectly than she.

    My father was a strong and moral man. Many men have taught me and encouraged and inspired me, but only a woman can be a mother.

    You see, there is a difference between men and women no matter what our androgynous culture wants us to believe. Men can be lawyers. Women can be lawyers. Men can be bricklayers. Women can be bricklayers. Men can be doctors women can be….. and so on. But only a man can be a father and only a woman can be a mother.

    Some women are called on to do the job of a father, but they cannot be fathers and in the same way men cannot be mothers. If the Church is a club or a business or a civic organization, then, fine, ordain women. If the priesthood is a ministry, then, fine, ordain women. If the Church is a family, then let there be fathers and mothers.

    The Church in this country is dying for lack of mothers.

    When I was a child the Church was full of mothers. If you had a sick child and needed prayer, you didn’t call the rectory, you called the convent. It was the mothers who taught you to read and to pray and to know the catechism. It was the mothers who prepared you for you first confession and communion. They taught you the rosary and the stations of the cross and how to know, love and serve God. And then one day someone told them they weren’t really good enough. They had to be more, just as the same serpents whispered into women’s ears, “You mean you’re just a housewife?” I remember a woman who never marked the box for housewife. She scratched it out and wrote “mother.” Well, the unique gift that is woman is increasingly devalued.

    Men are powerful and to be powerful, to be equal, is to do what men do. In the feminist debacle of the second half of the 20th century men have learned none of the virtues of women, but women have learned all the vices of men. Women now die at the same rate as men of heart attacks, lung cancer and the ills of modern society. They populate the offices and the factories and run the rat race just like men while our children are raised by poorly paid strangers. Women are masculinized and men are feminized and children are quite confused and poorly educated.

    We now rank 25th in the world as far as the educational levels of our schools. The children are nobody’s business. They can be raised by television and day care, because mom and dad are both busy. It’s worked really well in the world so let’s do it in the Church. There is not a shortage of priests, but there is a shortage of nuns. Now that spiritual motherhood counts for as little as biological motherhood, some people believe that women should be ordained in order to have a ministry in the Church. They forget they had the larger share of ministry at one time. They want to be fathers in an institution that is dying for lack of mothers, because, quite frankly, they really think men are better than women, and that what men do is better than what women do.

    I simply can’t understand why women who want to be ordained don’t just go to seminary and get ordained. There are plenty of fine religions that will ordain them. If you like smells and bells and tight plastic collars, the Anglicans will ordain you. If you like good preaching, the Lutherans or Presbyterian will ordain you. No matter what your personal choice or preference there is someone who will ordain you. Just not the Roman Church. I cannot for the life of me understand why you would even want to hang around with them.

    ReplyReply

  • *”If Jesus wanted to ordain women, He most certainly would have ordained women.”

    *”The Church in this country is dying for lack of mothers.”

    *Now that spiritual motherhood counts for as little as biological motherhood, some people believe that women should be ordained in order to have a ministry in the Church.

    *”I simply can’t understand why women who want to be ordained don’t just go to seminary and get ordained. There are plenty of fine religions that will ordain them. If you like smells and bells and tight plastic collars, the Anglicans will ordain you.”

    Now, doesn’t that feel better? You finally managed to get your points out. I think we all knew which school of thought you were coming from anyway, but at least you managed to spit it out. All that prevaricating and passive aggressive bullshit was giving me a headache.

    I certainly can’t pretend to be surprised by your views on the matter. I think the question re misogyny kind of gave the game away.

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  • Bruce
    April 24
    4:36 pm

    Well, do you have any answers? Do you believe that men and women are *not* really different? The Church disagrees. She knows that men and women are different, and their differences are to be celebrated, not destroyed.

    It is funny to see the charge of misogyny leveled at the Church by women who promote the female version of pornography. Both “romance novels” and porn objectify and destroy the dignity of men and women. The Church opposes this, because she believes in the dignity of men and women, and rejects our objectification.

    The Church is the only institution which, for the last 2000+ years, has regarded a WOMAN as the greatest human being to ever live. Better than any world leader. Better than any king. Better than any president. Better than any man or any other woman in the history of the universe. She is the Mother of God, Mary, and only the Church venerates her above all other human beings. The Church – that “misogynistic institution” considers a woman to be better than all other human beings who have ever lived, or will ever live, and venerates her as such. The Church – that bastion of “misogyny” – which has exalted countless women saints as exemplars of the human race. The Church is the ONLY institution which upholds a woman’s natural sexuality – no poisons or barriers or mutilation – and exalts her fertility as a gift, not a disease.

    The Church knows she is the BRIDE of Christ. And that she serves Him, and no one else. Christ gave His life for HER and no one else. The Church, and John Paul II in particular, exhorts husbands to love their wives like Christ loves the Church – to DIE FOR THEIR WIVES.

    I’ve never seen an institution so completely in love with women, and in particular mothers, than the Church.

    You see, your ignorance has blinded you to the only institution which actually upholds your dignity in a world of unbridled objectification, pornography, and abuse of women. The sexual revolution only brought misery and pain.

    Look at your own lives. Those who indulge in porn and “romance novels” have consistently poor relationships. The divorce rates are sky high for women and men who participate in these things.

    In contrast, men who believe what the Church teaches, and live by it, treat women so well, they never divorce. Our divorce rate is 4%. Yours is above 50%. We treat our wives with respect, love, and a level of devotion that requires us to die for them if need be.

    That is the kind of love you only find in fictional romance novels, and in the Catholic Church.

    Pax,
    Bruce – husband, father, and disciple of Jesus Christ.

    ReplyReply

  • Oh dear god. Pornography.

    oh, oh, and “poor relationships”–cause, you know, we ‘indulge’ in pr0n and romance novels.

    Yeah, luv, go on. Bruce, misogynist and church apologist.

    ReplyReply

  • Well, do you have any answers?

    I’m not in the habit of slamming my head against a brick wall. I’m pretty sure there’s no ebbing or flowing where your beliefs are concerned. Entrenched, is the word that springs to mind.

    Look at your own lives. Those who indulge in porn and “romance novels” have consistently poor relationships. The divorce rates are sky high for women and men who participate in these things.

    I did wonder how long it would take for the judgmental part of your religion-soaked brain to appear. It never fails. You Sir, just made my freaking day.

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  • Bruce
    April 24
    5:00 pm

    Again, your ignorance is showing. We are perfectly allowed to judge actions. In fact, we must. You do it all the time too. It is part of being humans.

    I never said you’re condemned. But I did say your actions are wrong and, according to statistics, will set you up for ruin. That just happens to be truth. :)

    I think it is also quite clear that AztecLady, you, and others here are rather guilty of ignorant and hateful bigotry. You rail against the Church, yet have no understanding of her in the slightest.

    It really is no different than your run-of-the-mill white bigot screaming hateful lies against a black person he does not even know. That bigot is you guys here.

    I’m happy to call you out on it.

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  • Bruce, sweetie, you are a blind asshole who hides behind regurgitated pap to justify seeing women who don’t conform to your ideas of goodness as inferior and unhappy beings.

    See?

    I’m happy to call you on your ignorance, bigotry and misogyny.

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  • Bruce
    April 24
    5:19 pm

    Did I ever refer to women as inferior, or has the Church for that matter?

    Nope.

    For a site that gives book reviews, one would think you would actually read what people write.

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  • Bruce
    April 24
    5:29 pm

    Oh, and I’ve never met happier women than those within the Church (who practically outnumber the men).

    Jen Fulwiler is a good example. Here is her take on contraception:
    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jennifer-fulwiler/the-contraception-trap/

    Simcha Fisher is a proud and happy mother of 9 kids, and she is a writer to boot:
    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/simcha-fisher/

    Feed your minds with non-fiction for a change.

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  • Bruce, sweetie…your words are what has convinced me that you are a misogynist asshole.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    5:33 pm

    Well, I’m not sure I could convince you otherwise, seeing how you fail to give specific examples.

    That makes you a bigot.

    But if you actually do want to have a conversation, feel free to name something specific.

    Otherwise, you are a bigot.

    ReplyReply

  • Bruce, it’s meaningless for someone who has shown himself, by his own holier-than-thou words, to be an asshole and a bigot himself, to hurl the word at others.

    Plus, what gave you the impression I would like to have a conversation with you? (Talk about needing remedial classes on reading comprehension.)

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    6:00 pm

    Ah yes, insults and foul language. The true weapons of a middle school bully.

    Unfortunately, such things only work against the one wielding them.

    I think it is clear that you have an irrational hatred of the Church, which you are wholly ignorant of and cannot explain even her most basic doctrines. When your ignorance is manifested as hate-filled screeds, it makes you a bigot.

    You are a bigot, and a foul-mouthed misandrist as well.

    ReplyReply

  • Feed your minds with non-fiction for a change.

    Well it’s awfully presumptuous of you to assume we don’t read non-fiction. With every word you write Bruce, my hatred of organised religion grows exponentially.

    ReplyReply

  • Oh noes, he’s calling me a bigot!

    And *shuddering in terror* a misandrist!

    *cue hair pulling and rending of vestments*

    Your condemnation, sir, was all that I needed to see the errors of my ways.

    Of course the church, full of assholes erm…saintly men such as yourself, is the way to go for a poor misguided woman such as myself.

    Thank you, most sincerely, for showing me the truth–and for showing everyone else reading just how much of a hypocrite you are. Where’s the other cheek, Bruce? Where’s all that forgiveness of the sinners, because “they know not what they do”?

    ReplyReply

  • The Church in this country is dying for lack of mothers.

    Nothing to do with the lack of action towards the paedophile priests that infest your Church then?

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  • @Bruce: The statement that no one has loved women – and specifically mothers – more than the Catholic Church is ridiculous when you look at the most basic rights of a woman in terms of contraception and abortion. A church that puts a foetus or SEMEN’s rights to live above those of the mother/host cannot claim to love the woman and mother above all else. The Roman Catholic Church loves it’s POWER over women most.

    (Brought over here from Karen’s Twitter)

    ReplyReply

  • “Men are powerful and to be powerful, to be equal, is to do what men do. In the feminist debacle of the second half of the 20th century men have learned none of the virtues of women, but women have learned all the vices of men. Women now die at the same rate as men of heart attacks, lung cancer and the ills of modern society. They populate the offices and the factories and run the rat race just like men while our children are raised by poorly paid strangers. Women are masculinized and men are feminized and children are quite confused and poorly educated.”

    Yes, let’s blame women, because before the feminist debacle of the 20th century (excuse me while I barf) all the children in the world were happy, well-fed and educated in loving homes full of puppies and rainbows.

    ReplyReply

  • @Brie: Yes, let’s blame women, because before the feminist debacle of the 20th century (excuse me while I barf) all the children in the world were happy, well-fed and educated in loving homes full of puppies and rainbows.

    Religious freaks always love blaming women for everything. And it’s like the sexual revolution was the worst thing that ever happened to us. As if being treated like slaves was the best thing since sliced bread.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    7:04 pm

    LOL, the “right” to abortion – since when do you have a right to kill someone?

    Abortion kills more women than any other disease or cause known to humanity. The ratio of aborted girls to boys is astonishing.

    And yet, you support the slaughter of women. How sad.

    ReplyReply


  • Bruce
    April 24
    7:08 pm

    Even atheists know that once sperm meets egg, its a new human being with unique DNA to that of the father and mother.

    This is basic biology. Like, middle school level.

    ReplyReply

  • @Bruce: LOL that you think the problem with the high level of aborted girls is down to abortion itself and NOTHING to do with the misogyny of boys being seen as more important/useful than girls.

    I support the rights of women to chose what happens to and in their body.

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  • FD
    April 24
    7:15 pm

    @Bruce:
    No, what you have when sperm meets egg is a zygote. That is the actual basic biological term. Try harder, troll.

    ReplyReply

  • Abortion kills more women than any other disease or cause known to humanity.

    Oh really? So Heart disease isn’t the biggest killer of women then? How about women in sub-saharan Africa? Is abortion the number one killer of women there? How about women in the Middle East? China, Japan? How about countries with low abortion rates?

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  • Bruce
    April 24
    7:55 pm

    And what is a zygote? A fish? A goat? Nope. It is a human being with human DNA and the ability to grow into…you! It is truly amazing. Abortion kills a human being. But Christ forgives all sins. If you have had an abortion, seek forgiveness for your sake, and the sake of your lost child.

    I said my rosary this afternoon for each of you. I prayed to the Blessed Mother that she take you each under her mantle and hold you close to her Son, Jesus Christ. I pray that you come to the Truth, which is Christ, and His Body, the Church.

    I pray that you share the joy that my family and I have. I want it for you, and more than that, to be with you in Heaven for all of eternity.

    Please keep seeking the Truth. Eventually, you will find your way back home to the Church.

    God bless each and everyone of you!
    Bruce

    ReplyReply


  • Anon 76
    April 24
    8:31 pm

    Dang it, dang it, dang it. I’m having trouble with the reply button because I most CERTAINLY have something to say.

    ReplyReply

  • @Anon 76: What’s up with the reply function?

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  • Anon 76
    April 24
    9:27 pm

    I can leave a comment but when I hover over the reply button and click, nothing happens.

    ReplyReply


  • Patrice
    April 24
    10:30 pm

    Hmm always interesting how some folks totally discount any matriarchial religious orders/governments that predated Roman times. Rather a narrow view of history.

    LOL Wow. just wow. That was enlightening. It’s all Love and kittens until you disagree with the party line. I feel so blessed that twice now in my life someone has prayed over me (after they could no longer sustain their argument logically) in the hope that I would see the light. Well, their light anyway. It must be time for holier than thou, as I ran into that attitude last week also. I wonder what the Blessed Mother Mary makes of these requests to enlighten silly fellow women on the merits of “the” church. I wonder if she’d rather smack the dopey petitioners upside the head and get on with her busy day.

    Thank God for seperation of church and state. Which I believe predates the 20th Century’s downfall. ;-) Oh, I would have been in such trouble during the Inquisition. LOL You saucy, romance readin’ wench, Aztec Lady. Didn’t you know never talk politics or religion at dinner? Oh wait, it wasn’t dinner. Carry on! ;-)

    Peace, Love and all that hippie dippy stuff that led to the downfall of society as he knew it. Blessings Be! Zen out. Karma’s a bitch. Om. Shalom! XO Love IS the answer. Really. :)

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  • @Bruce: For the love of god, a family like yours? a life like yours?

    I’d rather you’d curse me to hell, frankly.

    Oh and a zygote? It’s not a human being, and all your lecturing won’t make it so–it’s a fertilized egg. Eat that, idiot.

    @Anon 76: The way I’m using reply is to click on the reply button first, then type the comment (and just now it worked for me for replying to both of you) Does that help?

    @Patrice: *snort*

    Hey, I wasn’t the one who came into Karen’s space and started yelling at people for not bowing to him, yanno? I didn’t even invite the guy! (talking about poor manners and such)

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  • Jeannie S.
    April 25
    2:43 pm

    Look at your own lives. Those who indulge in porn and “romance novels” have consistently poor relationships. The divorce rates are sky high for women and men who participate in these things.

    You know, while not agreeing with you, I was at least respecting your opinion. Then the self-righteous crap gets chimed in. I have mixed feeling about the church (I was appalled to see a priest stop a mass to berate a special needs child sitting in front of me. As a mother of one, I cannot understand the complete lack of sensitivity to a “child of God”. I have also met some amazing priests who were very understanding.) I try to be loyal to the church, but it is getting harder. To tell women that reading romance novels is like reading porn and that makes you some kind of Jezebel? Really??

    And where are your findings that romance novels equal high divorce rates? I don’t believe that the grounds for divorce was ever based on “doesn’t live up to the heroes in my romance novels”.

    (edited to add quote formatting)

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  • Anon 76
    April 25
    8:08 pm

    Testing what you just said now, Aztec.

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  • Anon 76
    April 25
    8:12 pm

    Whoops, well that didn’t work.

    And no worries, Karen. I have an older version of internet explorer and lots of things all over the web don’t work for me. I adapt and find a way to get around it.

    Or, based on the current discussion, I “evolve” to adapt to my environs. GASP

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  • Hey Anon, just post what you want to and address it to Mr Holier Than Thou.

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  • Bruce
    April 25
    8:31 pm

    Zygote – “is the earliest developmental stage of the embryo and contain DNA derived from both the parents, and this provides all the genetic information necessary to form a new individual.”

    Even Wikipedia understand this. The zygote, as a new human being different from mom and dad, contains DNA derived from both parents, which provides all it needs to grow into an adult.

    So, killing a zygote is killing a human being.

    Information is power.

    Oh, and abortion does kill more girls than just about anything else. To be pro “choice” is to be for the murder of girls:

    “The U.N. has reported that 113-200 million girls and women who should be here aren’t. They are “the missing.” Many of these missing girls were aborted or killed after birth. The U.N. specifically attributes these figures to infanticide or girls not getting as much food and medical attention as their brothers or fathers. To put it in perspective, Ram Mashru reports, “India and China are said to eliminate more female infants than the number of girls born in the US each year.””

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  • Anon 76
    April 25
    9:06 pm

    Okay, I’m going to try this the backdoor way since I’m techy challenged. Hope it works.

    Author: Bruce
    Comment:
    “Well, do you have any answers? Do you believe that men and women are *not* really different? The Church disagrees. She knows that men and women are different, and their differences are to be celebrated, not destroyed.”

    Okay, a big problem for me already. “The Church”, “She.” Organized religion has stepped away from the basics. IMHO. “The Church” is not an entity. It is a thing built of wood, brick or mortar. It is not to be worshiped.

    “It is funny to see the charge of misogyny leveled at the Church by women who promote the female version of pornography. Both “romance novels” and porn objectify and destroy the dignity of men and women. The Church opposes this, because she believes in the dignity of men and women, and rejects our objectification.”

    Note you said the “female version of pornography.” Think on the “male version” of pornography, and worse, valid accusations leveled at an archaic group of male doms in power there.

    “The Church knows she is the BRIDE of Christ. And that she serves Him, and no one else. Christ gave His life for HER and no one else. The Church, and John Paul II in particular, exhorts husbands to love their wives like Christ loves the Church – to DIE FOR THEIR WIVES.”

    Again, the church has become a living thing. I seem to remember from my bible classes that this is a big Jesus no no. As is idolatry. All that bling in the vatican? Or the Pope himself. Nope, that doesn’t apply here. Sheesh.

    “I’ve never seen an institution so completely in love with women, and in particular mothers, than the Church.”

    So in love they will not even consider a woman being strong and with leadership values. Oh, that’s right. Women are mothers, men are fathers. By your own words in an earlier post about men being strong, it seems you somewhat say that all the evil traits of your gender have now been assumed by women. Yet you ask us to follow to your blind ambitions within the faith rather than take a primary leadership role.

    “Look at your own lives. Those who indulge in porn and “romance novels” have consistently poor relationships. The divorce rates are sky high for women and men who participate in these things.”

    I think my husband of 31 years would take issue with that statement. I’d have said I’d take issue with it, but a woman’s voice in such matters apparently doesn’t count.

    “In contrast, men who believe what the Church teaches, and live by it, treat women so well, they never divorce. Our divorce rate is 4%. Yours is above 50%. We treat our wives with respect, love, and a level of devotion that requires us to die for them if need be.”

    Yeah, that’s why some of the most devote, pew sitting, mass going catholic men I know somehow recieve “dispensation” or whatever from “The Church” whenever they want to slog off the woman married to. It doesn’t count in the books, hence the 4% divorce rate.

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  • FD
    April 25
    9:08 pm

    @Bruce: Nope, zygotes, being incapable of independent existence are essentially parasites until they are born – at which point legally, they become people.
    And again, as other commenters have pointed out, and you seem incapable of understanding, the problem isn’t abortion – it’s misogyny, as delivered and mandated by your oh so beloved and loving church which dictates the position of women as being lesser, which causes girls in India to be aborted at higher rates than boys.

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  • I can’t remember the exact quote, but it goes something like, “I have no problem with God, it’s his fan club that irks me”

    There you go, Bruce, back to the club house with you.

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  • [...] out this utter knob jockey called Bruce, who had this (and loads more besides) to say: “It is funny to see the charge of [...]



  • Bruce
    April 27
    12:43 pm

    I love the bigoted and ignorant accusation of “misogyny” leveled at the Church – which has more women in it than men!

    But by all means, keep up the “tolerance” that is such a huge virtue among post-Christians, yet is seldom practiced.

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  • K
    May 1
    2:40 pm

    @Bruce:

    As someone above noted, I respected, if not agreed with, your argument until your high horse reared its head.

    How about the fact that the Vatican council specifically seems to be taking issue with the fact that the sisters are doing good works? Setting aside abortion, what about birth control? What about continuing to say that condoms are wrong when women are dying in Africa because their husbands are sleeping with prostitutes and bringing that home to their wives and unborn children. It’s morally wrong.

    As a practicing Catholic, I have been feeling pushed and shoved out the door by some of the insanity revealed in the past few years. Do you really and truly not have a problem with the cover ups? Do you really and truly not feel troubled by the fact that the Church has come down so heavily on these sisters but seemed far less incensed about the abuse and the crimes that were committed? Because if you don’t, well, there really isn’t anything to discuss.

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