On the RTB column yesterday, Sharon Long, talked about the on-going fight between Romance and Erotic Romance, but that’s not what I’m gonna talk about.
One of the readers of her column made a comment that I thought was very interesting, as did quite a lot of other people, thus the discussion went completely off topic after this:
There is an underlying dialogue in this issue that is really beginning to bother me. That is the assumption that anyone who is uncomfortable reading erotica is somehow ignorant, closed-minded, or prejudiced.
Consider this: If a person is uncomfortable with interracial marriage, does that make him a racist?”
My answer to this question, is pretty much a resounding yes.
Mostly because in my mind, when something makes you feel uncomfortable, there is usually a reason for it. The discomfort comes from a place that you may have never thought existed, and probably would never openly acknowledge, even to yourself, but it’s there all the same.
As human beings, we constantly make snap judgements on various situations, and sometimes, the conclusions we draw can lead to feelings of discomfiture.
If somebody looks at a black and white couple, and it makes them feel uncomfortable, what other conclusions can be drawn from that?
You can argue that they aren’t racist, that it’s just something they are unfamiliar with, but that’s simply not true.
We just don’t want to admit to being racist, because admitting it would be like saying that we are bad human beings. Which wouldn’t be necessarily true either.
The fact is, all of us, have it within us to be racist or predjudiced towards certain people or certain situations. We may not acknowledge it, but it’s there all the same.
Even I have it, and I’m pretty much perfect:) It’s not desirable, nor is it something I would usually ever even think about, but I know that deep, way deep down inside of me, those undesirable feelings are there, waiting to be triggered. But the difference is, the feelings aren’t strong enough to make me act on them. After all, I’m basically a good person.
Racism isn’t just about looking at somebody and actively or even inactively disliking the colour of their skin. It’s way more than that, and in my opinion, it has many forms.
The key thing is, that not everybody wants to embrace their inner-racist, and rightly so, because that would make you a bad human being.
Tammy
July 28
11:51 am
Woa Karen, this is one of those subjects that I usually avoid like the plague, but thinking about it, you’re probably right.
It’s sad, but true. Most people probably do have an element of racism deep down.
Angela James
July 28
12:48 pm
Excellent points Karen. difficult subject but I believe you’re quite right. Most everyone has an inner… I’m going to say bigot even though it’s a harsh word. Because racist implies only race and I think some people might not hold a race prejudice but rather one against sexual orientation, religion, lifestyle, gender, income or other. I guess it’s one of the not so pretty things that makes us all human 🙁
Selah March
July 28
1:52 pm
You’re absolutely right, Karen.
“I respect people of all races, but it makes me uncomfortable to see them mated.” Nice try, and the intentions may even be in the right place, but methinks there’s still work to be done, no?
It’s on par with people who say, “I’ve got nothing against homosexuals. I just don’t think they should be able to get married/serve in the military/teach in the schools/live in my neighborhood. But I’m not homophobic or anything.”
Hello? Reality calling. We have a check with your name on it, WANKER.
Monica
July 28
2:09 pm
I always wonder about so many people in this culture denying their blatant racism as if their life depended on it. We live in a rank and racist country. I’d liken it to a Jew living in Germany pre WWII.
I have one daughter in elementary school. I have to pay far more attention to racism than most white mothers of white children ever consider or dream about.
Most (actually all) of her friends are white and completely fine, but still she gets battered and bruised by racism on a near-daily basis. It’s really hard for a kid to deal with without loving advice and guidance.
And those same folks that are trying to HURT MY CHILD will paste sickening sweet smiles on their faces and swear up and down that they aren’t racist!
Jesus. It’s a miracle there isn’t rioting in the streets.
somethingsicantsay
July 28
3:08 pm
yeah. i absolutely agree.
i mean, to be absoultely ‘-ist’ free, you have to be fine with everything and treat him on the same level as you treat your family/friends.
and the way u openly mentioned all the inner beast thing, really settles the whole matter once and for all to anyone who chances upon this matter.
for me, i dont really know about the whole issue of racism. in my sch, we make racist jokes everyday, and most of us take it in our stride..haha. but outside sch, its a diff matter..
Anonymous
July 28
3:18 pm
I’m sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree with most everyone here. In my opinion, you can feel uncomfortable, and not be bigoted, or racist. Why can’t someone be allowed to be uncomfortable without there being a whole lot of analysing going on. Maybe they are simply not used to certain lifestyles.
Somebody mentioned homosexuals, but why should they be allowed to marry and adopt kids, just because I think children need two parents doesn’t make me homophobic in any way, and I would be insulted if anybody called me a homophobe. I have lots of gay aquaintances, and any of them would be astonished were I to be labelled homophobic.
Indida
July 28
4:12 pm
That whole uncomfortable feeling, that fear, is the underlying layer of racism or any other type of “ism”. We fear what we don’t know.
We have a choice when we are confronted with something that makes us uncomfortable or fearful.
We can find out why and become knowledgeable so we aren’t uncomfortable anymore or we can turn away from the subject or object that made us uncomfortable, making it unacceptable.
When it unacceptable and we are confronted by it more and more, that uncomfortable feeling, that fear, grows and festers becoming an ism. Most people keep their isms hidden because nowadays it is public knowledge that most are looked down upon.
Racists or “ismists” were not born that way. They made a choice to not accept whatever made them uncomfortable. Most had influence from others around them as well.
It is always easier to go along with the popular, most publicized grain. “Erotica and erotic romance is porn.”
These ignorant haters are called “erotophobes”. Look it up.
Monica
July 28
4:58 pm
Would anonymous be astonished that anybody was uncomfortable with her I’d-bet-money-that-she-was-white self?
Probably.
Because she considers that SHE’S normal and regular. What would anybody be “uncomfortable” around a normal and regular person?
If I’m uncomfortable with someone, I avoid them, I don’t allow my children around them. I treat them with distain by definition.
If Anon or her children were on the receiving end of a whole lotta “uncomfortableness” she’d certainly singing a different tune.
And that’s simply sheer bigotry. Look in a mirror at yourself and deal with it.
What if people like this were all encouraged to join the KKK or some other organization with like minded people, who unlike them, don’t immerse themselves in denial? Would that be a bad thing? I don’t think so. At least we can identify them readily. I felt more “comfortable” in the deep South with the open racists who could be easily avoided, than the veiled sort I deal with now.
Anonymous
July 28
5:42 pm
By your assumtion that I’m white, aren’t you showing that you are indeed racist? I find that most of the people who even enter into this kind of dialogue are generally people who have a chip on their shoulder.
I’ve never thought that I was superior to anybody, and I’m sure that there will be people who are uncomfortable with me for one reason or another, but I certainly wouldn’t assume it was because they didn’t like white people.
Monica
July 28
6:09 pm
You are white, right?
I’m sure that there will be people who are uncomfortable with me for one reason or another, but I certainly wouldn’t assume it was because they didn’t like white people.
Because white people generally only have the luxury of your sort of attitude in the US or Europe.
People can dislike you for all sorts of reasons. But if they don’t know you, barring bdoy odor or an obnoxious general appearance, why else would someone be uncomfortable and distance from you on sight for any other other reason than a distaste for your sort of person–although it could be that they don’t like that you’re female or have red hair or splotchy freckles, and that’s valid bigotry too.
somethingsicantsay
July 28
6:16 pm
i always thought this was a sensitive issue.
guess im right eh?
haha
Selah March
July 28
6:41 pm
“Somebody mentioned homosexuals, but why should they be allowed to marry and adopt kids…”
For the same reason you are “allowed” to marry and adopt kids–it’s a basic human right.
“…just because I think children need two parents doesn’t make me homophobic in any way…”
Yes, much better children move from temporary foster home to temporary foster home, or be housed in group homes, than be adopted by two loving parents of the same sex. Clearly, you live in an idyllic Utopia, where divorce and single parenting don’t exist. Can I move into YOUR neighborhood? Pretty please?
“…and I would be insulted if anybody called me a homophobe. I have lots of gay aquaintances, and any of them would be astonished were I to be labelled homophobic.”
You know? I somehow doubt that. But just as an experiment, why don’t you tell them you don’t think they should be “ALLOWED” to get married or adopt children (be sure to phrase it just that way–no cheating) and see what they say.
(See orginal comment, re: WANKER.)
Monica
July 28
6:53 pm
Oh yeah, indeed I have a chip, just fresh from soothing my daughter from this sort of crap, but who wouldn’t?
I also have the luxury of freely pissing off this type of reader, because it’s not bloody likely they’d pick up a book with characters who make them “uncomfortable” anyway, is it?
[chortle]
kstar
July 28
7:45 pm
“I’ve never thought that I was superior to anybody,”
You’ve somewhat (only somewhat) redeemed yourself with this statement. At least you know yourself.
And why not own your comments rather than hiding behind an annonymous tag? Or is that a sheet I see?
meljean brook
July 28
11:36 pm
It’s a weird analogy in the first place — I can imagine a lot of reasons for being uncomfortable reading erotica that don’t have to do with ignorance but taste.
But the other? I’m in an interracial relationship, and I get looks all the time. Most of them aren’t friendly looks. When I wear a hijab, it’s a rather hated religion on top of interracial, and it’s even worse.
There are times when I’m glad I’ve had a little taste of what that prejudice is like, to get those looks from assholes who can’t stand my hijab, because I can feel a tiny, tiny bit of what my husband has experienced his entire life. And worse, what my daughter is going to go through.
It KILLS me that my daughter is going to go through all kinds of shit when she goes to school, when she’s out with us — already, we’ve gotten looks that we shouldn’t be getting, because people are ‘uncomfortable’ with a mixed couple, and a mixed kid.
I’ll be absolutely honest here — if someone is ‘uncomfortable’ with my kid, my beautiful, brilliant, innocent little baby, I HATE them. I fucking hate their ignorance, and their bigotry, and their racism. I hate everything about them that makes them look at my relationship and my baby that way. I hate them for not bothering to look past our skin tones. But mostly I hate them for hurting my daughter, and for everything she’s going to go through.
Someone’s ‘uncomfortable’ because I’m white and my husband’s not? Because my baby isn’t white or brown but something in between? And they’ll treat us differently because of that? It makes me want to puke. And it makes me want to cry. Not for their uncomfortable asses, but for my husband and my baby.
Desiree Erotique
July 29
12:54 am
Love, trust and devotion should be the basis of a relationship. The colour of skin plays nothing into it. I can’t stand it when someone defends their racism with Biblical references, or by pretending children are only hurt by having parents of a different races. Those who cite the Bible need to read the Song of Solomon, and those hiding behind the children issue need to remember that some of our worlds most famous and influential people had parents of different colour.
And I’m not sure where that anonymous was going; but I do think that Karen wasn’t addressing the subject of gay marriages and/or adoption in this blog.
meljean brook
July 29
1:10 am
“Love, trust and devotion should be the basis of a relationship. The colour of skin plays nothing into it.”
I do think it plays into it as far as understanding the other person in the relationship. I can’t pretend that my husband’s color and my color doesn’t influence how we interact with each other. (Mostly, we joke about stereotypes.) I can’t ignore color the same way I can’t ingore his penis or he my breasts — it is a part of us, and our relationship. Everyone will deal with it differently.
Reading through the comments on the RTB site, I can understand one aspect of the ‘uncomfortable’ thing (though maybe not as quoted, exactly). Someone asked whether it was racist if someone within a relationship decided not to pursue it further because of the problems a couple would face (cultural clashing, ethnic differences, outside judgment).
I have to admit, I wouldn’t wish some of the things that have said to me or my husband on ANYONE — and I don’t know that I would think badly of someone who didn’t want to fight through all of the additional weight of an interracial relationship on top of regular relationship problems.
It would have been a lot easier for my husband to marry a nice Indian girl and settle down; it would have been easier for me to marry a white guy and settle down. Both of us chose something else, though, and we only partially knew what we were getting into.
It’s been worth it, though, and I wouldn’t change a bit, even the painful parts — for some people, it might not be, and they’d choose something else.
Kristie (J)
July 29
1:39 am
Very interesting and honest post Karen. I had to think about if for a bit before I posted. I like to think I don’t have any predjudice in me. But in total honesty, sometimes, when I least expect it, something comes up and bites me in the butt and I realize I do have a predjudice about that. Then I try and think about it, admit it to myself – as hard as that is – deal with it and let it go. I’ve learned in life that despite outward appearances, we are all of us a lot more alike than we are different. Focus on that and the differences evaporate.
Jaynie R
July 29
5:51 am
Wow Karen, you have guts for posting this – i’m surprised you didn’t get a whole lot of crap you had to delete.
I’d like to consider myself open minded and free from racism, bigotry and homophobism (hmm, is that a word?)
After reading Meljean’s post and what it is like for her and her daughter, I’m not sure I’m as great as I thought. I have no problems with Meljean’s relationship or her daughter. I think anyone and everyone should be allowed to get married and have/adopt kids/be in the military/whatever.
But – thinking about my own kids. I don’t think I’d want my kids to go through the hell society would inflict on them if they decided to marry someone who wasn’t white, or if they turned out to be gay. I would still love them just as much, but I don’t want that kind of hardship in their life. (I don’t really want it in anyone’s life)
I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m not uncomfortable with mixed race or homosexual relationships, but I am uncomfortable with the reactions of society to those relationships.
Which probably doesn’t make me better than anyone else.
Jaynie R
July 29
5:52 am
Oh, and I love m/m erotic romance, and I’ve no problem reading I/R erotic romance either. Fiction doesn’t usually show the kind of reality those couples would face in real life.
Karen Scott
July 29
9:30 am
Tammy, I don’t do many racism rants, but sometimes, somebody will make a comment, that pushes my hot button. I didn’t really think anybody would bother commenting cuz it is one of those subjects that people hate talking about.
Angie, you’re totally right, even those people who aren’t necessarily racist, are bigoted in some way, whether it’s with regards to sexual orientation, class, etc
Selah, I hear stuff like that a lot, people who claim they are perfectly tolerant of other people’s choices, yet always somehow manage to insert a ‘but’ in there somewhere. BTW people who feel the need to use the word ‘tolerant’ are usually the one’s who aren’t.
Monica, if I had a child that went through the kind of stuff you’re daughter goes through, it would totally break my heart. I don’t understand how teachers in this day and age, can be anything less than understanding, and intolerant of bigoted behaviour, never mind displaying such predjudices themselves. It’s just wrong, and I know that I wouldn’t be able to keep quiet. To think that children have to go through this just makes me angry as hell.
Anonymous, with every sentence you wrote, you just managed to prove my point entirely. You’re bigoted and you don’t seem to realise it. You really need to buy yourself a clue.
Somethingsicantsay, you’re really gonna have to leave a name, or else I’m gonna be shortening your name to ‘Some’ (g)
As for telling racist jokes in school, as far as I’m concerned, school is where the greatest harm can occur. What may be taken as a joke by one person, may not be necessarily funny to somebody else, in fact, it may be something that stays with them into adulthood. You’d be surprised how much one throw away comment can affect somebody.
Indida, if we let it, fear of the unfamiliar can rule our entire lives, the people who face up to it, are generally the people who emerge as better people.
Monica, I’m with you, I prefer the in your face, upfront brand of racism, than the one that hurts you whilst you’re not looking. If somebody is racist, and they say they are racist, you can then make a decision not to cross paths with that person, but if it’s somebody who you work with and who you think likes you, they are able to do way more damage. Better the devil you know, than the racist in your kitchen.
Anonymous, I have no doubt that there are people who are uncomfortable with you for a number of reasons…
You are wrong you know. By entering into ‘this type’ of dialogue, sometimes people are able to face a part of them that they never knew existed. You should maybe try it sometime.
BTW, why remain anonymous? You really should have the courage of your convictions.
Monica, I’d bet my house that aninymous would never read your books, but maybe that’s not neccesarily a bad thing.
Some (g) Racism is the most sensitive issue, one that not everybody want to talk about.
Selah, I laughed when anonymous went the ‘I have gay friends, so I’m not homophobic’ route. Didn’t it remind you of the ‘I have black friends, so I can’t possibly be racist’ refrain that is very popular these days?
I’m willing to bet that he/she doesn’t tell her/his ‘gay friends’ that she/he doesn’t think that it’s a good idea for them to adopt, and get married.
Kimberly, most people who think like anonymous do, are usually very cowardly, so there’s no way that he/she’s gonna proclaim to the world that they’re a racist and just a big old bigot.
Meljean, like I said earlier, fear can overtake our lives if we let it. Is your husband Indian? Does he constantly have to defend himself against people who will lump him in with the Islamic Fundamentalists who are currently trying to shroud the world with fear, just because he has the same skin tones? I can only imagine the suspicious looks that he gets, in this current climate.
Your important thing for your child is that she has your love and protection. That will stand her in good stead for when she gets older. She’ll become a much stronger person for it, but no child should have to face this kind of bigotry period.
Des, don’t get me started on people who quote the bible ad nauseum. It just makes me crazy that people actually think that they are doing God’s work by trying to exclude certain factions from societal norms. In my opinion, a lot of very bad things are done in the name of religion.
Meljean, you were stronger than a lot of people in your situation would have been, you went after what you wanted regardless of the condescending judgemental attitudes that you would have inevitably got from people. The only way to help eradicate some of these attitudes is to face up to them. Although, it would be much worse if the attitude was coming from your own family.
Kristie, it’s an ugly side of us that we wish wasn’t there. The problem is that our very thoughts and attitudes are influenced by those around us, and world events, so even when we’re trying to be better people, there may be others who try to steer us in the opposite direction. Facing up to your inner-bigot, and leaving it in a closed box in your mind marked ‘do not open’ is the best way to try to live in my opinion.
Jaynie, I expected to be doing a lot of deleting too!
I’m not sure that I would have been as brave as Meljean was either. Sometimes, it’s easier to go with the flow, than to swim against the tide, but sometimes if you want something badly enough, you’ll take your chances knowing that it’s worth fighting for, sharks and all.
Jaynie, in romance books, there just aren’t that many writers willing to tackle issues that evoke strong responses from people. Some of them are too afraid of the back lash, which may include losing readers.
LaShaunda
July 29
3:46 pm
Karen,
We like to think we don’t have racism inside us, but deep down we all have a little. I’m African-American and I’m the mother of two light-skinned children. Their father is light skinned and they took their skin tone from him and not from their carmel complected mother. You wouldn’t believe the looks I get as if I couldn’t have birthed them.
Yesterday I attended a funeral and I was the only black woman there. It sadden me that this man had no black friends. I told my mother I hope at my funeral that my diversity of friends is represented.
As much as we hate to admitted we all have a little racism in us and every now and then it comes out. I know I’m guilty of it and I pray about it.
kstar
July 29
5:22 pm
Karen,
Thank you for having the courage to confront this topic on your blog.
I was raised in an atmosphere of racism — the brand that says, “some of my best friends are …” and it has taken me many years to overcome that influence.
Now I have two beautiful granddaughters who are biracial and the whole issue of racial hatred really pushes my buttons.
I’d never visited your blog before yesterday but I will be back.
Mechele Armstrong
July 29
8:42 pm
I really wish we had gotten to a place in life where we were past all the racism and predjudice. I know we aren’t.
I know I have hangups, and they bother me. But I do not embrace them and I work on them. I dislike intolerance.
A very brave post. And very brave comments.
I ache for the people who have encountered racism.
Emma Gads
July 29
9:34 pm
Great post, Karen. I agree with you 100%. I shared the gist of this issue with the DH yesterday, and he told me about an incident in his psychology class when the professor asked the students who thought they were racist to raise their hands. Out of 20 or so, 3 did. He then asked them to consider this: If their car broke down near the train tracks and on one side there’s a black neighborhood and on the other is a white one, where would you go for help?
To my DH, who didn’t think he was racist, it was an eye opening moment.
It’s very clear who “anonymous” is, as her comments resemble in tone and word choice the ones she made on RTB and her own blog. For some reason, she sees all racists as extremists. That, to me, is a very strange attitude. Making a judgement based on someone’s skin or ethnicity is racist–what the hell else would it be?!–and doing so doesn’t make you evil or bad.
Yes, we’re all racist in one way or another. And I’m thinking it’s almost easier to deal with an in-your-face racist than the other kind who is “uncomfortable” (again, whatever that means!) with interracial marriage and then vehemently denies being bigoted or prejudiced…
Karen Scott
July 29
10:08 pm
Lashaunda, throughout my career, I’ve usually been the only black person at various functions, and it’s always interesting to gauge how people react to me. The interesting thing that I have found though is that when I deign to speak at these various meetings etc, people tend to take what I say as gospel, and seem to almost go out of their way to schmoozy up to me. I used to look back and wonder what that was about, and I suddenly realised that I was quite useful as a fashion accessory, kind of like “here, meet my black colleague, aren’t I fabulously liberal?”
Kimberly, the worst thing about racism is the effect it can have on children long term. Some kids have a good support unit, and so they are able to cope, but some kids aren’t so lucky, and they grow up feeling ashamed of who they are.
Mechele, don’t get me wrong, we’ve come a long way, but there’s no doubt in my mind, that the road ahead is still a long one, when it comes to dealing with racism in our society.
Emma, Tracy at RTB probably felt that she was being attacked, but it’s throw away comments like the one that she made, that cause the most harm. I’m sure she’s a perfectly nice person and has black friends etc etc etc, but as analogies go, hers sucked big time.
The professor’s question gets right to the heart of the matter, and illustrates my point beautifully. As a black person, I’d go over to the black neighbourhood.
Jay
July 30
1:29 am
Hmm, with regard to the neighborhood question, I dont know that I would automatically pick the black side just because I’m black. For me I’d have to decide more based on what type of neighborhoods they seemed to be. Is there a ghetto on the black side but manicured lawns on the white side? If so, I’m going to the white side. Same thing vice versa. Are both neighborhoods equally ghetto, one side with black people, the other with rednecks? Then I’d go to the black side. Does that make me racist against rednecks and ghetto black people? possibly, but if anything I think it probably makes me classist. Which, if I have to suffer from an -ism, I’m okay with it being elitism. I’m a GOSPLAC and proud of it!
Emma Gads
July 30
5:27 am
Jay, I think the whole point of the neighborhood example is to assume they’re the same kinds of neighborhoods, i.e. both ghetto or both middle class and so on, with the only difference being black or white.
Rocio
July 31
6:02 pm
hard topic! I guess you have to clear up what’s a racist in the first place. because as in everything they are different kind of levels. Like a hispanic movie about a woman whose best friend was a black woman who she love very much, but when her daugther fell for a black man and she thought of having black grandchildren it scared her!! see? I bet she thought she was not a racist because she had a black friend!
When people says racist it usually becomes a matter of black and white as if those where the only two races in the world.
I truly hope someday people can write a story without the races of the character becoming the genre of the book, when the race or color of the characters is not big deal in the story, just as the hair style or clothes..maybe we can all concentrate on the important things of a story and start to think of all us as persons instead of colors and locations.
Dawn
August 1
9:50 am
OK, so I’m a little late on this one, although I’ve been reading the comments with interest.
I am a light skinned black woman from a family of multi-hued black people. I could pass as white (in fact, sometimes I feel that the reason that I haven’t experienced any racism is because of that, so I’ve been bloody lucky), but my brothers “look” black and my sister looks more Asian.
The only time that I’m conscious of biracial couples is when I’m in the States, funnily enough, and I think that’s because I’m very aware of the American history of the whites and blacks (I generally end up thinking that the couple are brave). I don’t even bat an eye when I see it over here.
I am the product of a biracial relationships – not my own parents, but back from one of my great grandparents on Dad’s side and my grandparents on Mum’s side.
My husband is quite a lot darker than me, and we have a beautiful daughter (but then I’m biased). I would be devasted if Jade experienced racism, although I think that it’s inevitable. DH keeps telling me that we’ve got to prepare her for the competition that she’s going to encounter. She’s got to be smarter/better at what she chooses to do, because she might be overlooked just because of her colour if she has the same qualifications as a white person. I hope that by the time she grows up, we can all honestly say that colour isn’t an issue and everyone will be judged by their merits.
As someone said a lot of people think that racism is a black/white thing. Well, it ain’t. It crosses all colours.
Thinking about what Karen said about being the only black at company functions, I’ve experienced that as well as being the only black in the company.
Having said that, when other blacks join, I don’t immediately seek them out because we share a common identity. I take them exactly the way I take other people, I’ve got to get to know you first, then I’ll decide if I want to be around you (hey, they might decide that THEY don’t want to be around me! ;-))
I kind of feel I’ve rambled and gone off the track a few times, but hey that’s the way I think.