"You know nothing about what AA authors have done as a group"
Thursday, March 15, 2007Posted in: it only takes one sometimes
That was a direct quote from a pissed off black author.
This whole racism in romance thing started because of my desire to help.
Seriously, this wasn’t about grandstanding, or attention seeking. No, this was a genuine effort to help black authors.
Well, you know what they say: No good deed goes unpunished.
Let me share with you a couple of the e-mails I’ve received since this whole thing started:
Forgive me, Karen, but I’m tired of hearing people of African descent talk about racism. I want to hear white people discuss it; after all white people invented it and perpetuate it.
This was from the ignorant author who pasted my personal e-mail address to umpteen number of Yahoo groups. I still haven’t gotten over that one, thanks.
The following, was from another author, who took exception to my posting her name as a participant of the survey. She wrote me a long old e-mail telling me why I was the spawn of the devil, amongst other things:
Your entire survey operates under the assumption what we need to show white readers, i.e., the audience for your blog, in hard proof that there is racism in publishing so they’ll believe us; otherwise, they’ll think we’re liars(?) or paranoid black folks(?).
I don’t need to justify anything to that audience. I don’t need to explain racism to them, and I don’t care if they know about it, feel bad about it or think it’s a great idea. The only readers I care about — and I’m sure other AA writers feel the same way – are the readers who will give my books a chance, whether white, black, yellow or purple.
And someone who needs to read a survey saying that its racist in the industry and shakes their head, bemoaning the “poor black author,” is not my target audience.
By the way, just to explain, an author friend of hers sent me an e-mail telling me that she wanted to participate in the survey, and that I should send her the questions. So I did. Her friend was mistaken. Obviously.
Ok then, let me answer this point by point.
Your entire survey operates under the assumption what we need to show white readers, i.e., the audience for your blog, in hard proof that there is racism in publishing so they’ll believe us; otherwise, they’ll think we’re liars(?) or paranoid black folks(?).
Actually, I did this because I foolishly thought I could make a difference in some small way. It wasn’t about showing my ‘white readers’ (and you’re not the only person to have belaboured on this point) hard proof about racism in publishing. The questions I asked, were questions I genuinely wanted to know the answers to. So sue me.
I don’t need to justify anything to that audience
That audience? Which audience? The people who read my blog? Or the ‘white’ people who read my blog?
I don’t need to explain racism to them, and I don’t care if they know about it, feel bad about it or think it’s a great idea.
I can’t help but think that this point of view is at best, a little defeatist.
There are people out there who genuinely wont know, that there is a problem. Of course some of them won’t care a whole lot, but you know, there are a few, a precious few, who will care, a precious few who might even consciously choose a book written by a black author the next time they go shopping. Some may scoff at this, and look at this as a pity-buy, but I say balls to that. Everybody has to start somewhere.
A few authors have scoffed that what I’m doing wont make a difference, and what do I know about the struggles that black authors have faced for years anyway?
They’re probably right. It probably wont make a blind bit of difference, but it surely wont be because I didn’t give it a go. I actually thought I was doing something good. Can you believe that? What was I thinking? I really should stick to talking about romance books by white authors. Truly.
This issue doesn’t personally affect me. It really isn’t my fight. So why bother?
Well, because of the authors who didn’t scoff at this mouthy blogger. Because they were happy to take time out to help me out. I can’t repay that by throwing my toys out of the pram, just because I failed to get the support this venture needed to make it work. That’s not their fault. They kept their end of the bargain. So I’m gonna keep mine insofar as I can.
I will keep posting the author responses, they deserve to be aired. But yes, I will post other things in between, because this isn’t a topic that I want people to get bored of. It’s too important for that.
For those of you who have something to say about that, may I suggest that you spin on it, and rotate very effing speedily. Or at the very least get the f*ck off my blog. You’re not my target audience.
Oprah might not be interested in this issue, but you know, one of these days, somebody will be. The authors affected should get ready for that day, because it might not be as far off as you think. You just never know who’s listening in…
Coming up next, Marcia King-Gamble.
Kate R
March 17
2:13 pm
PS bringing the conversation back to AA Romance. I picked some up at RWA a few years back and now I actively seek out a couple of those authors. It’s always a matter of author for me, not genre. I avoid inspirational but nothing else.
(I pick my books by writer–heck, I even read a particular inspirational writer.)
Would I pick up those books? Right now my TBR pile is huge, but maybe, if I read a great review of it. …..hmmm….I don’t tend to see them reviewed in places like AAR. Uh oh.
Monica
March 17
2:30 pm
I think with the money la Nora makes for her pubs, she needs have little fear of speaking out on anything.
Tate didn’t bother to read the posts of almost all the black authors and the many comments that stated that black romance isn’t different from white romance. I’ve written over twenty books and novellas. In two of my MAINSTREAM works out of 20+ (heads up on Mr Right Now and my novella in Dark Thirst), a paranormal novel and a novella, I used some vernacular phrasing and characters did comment on race as is done in real life. A reader won’t find any of that in any romance novels or novellas I’ve written. Their focus is the romance.
Somehow she believes that blacks are fundamentally different from her in the way we conduct romance and our lives. That’s not an easy belief to change or even discuss with the person as instant defensiveness is usually the result.
And with that belief, which is generally pretty obvious to us once we get to know someone, she still thinks her black acquaintances would confide in her about race!
Kate R, what was being discussed was cultural and societal influences, circumstances and power, not genetics. No commenter ever stated any race is genetically or fundamentally different than another.
Again, it seems as if your reaction was to trigger words, not anything that was actually stated.
I find that an extremely common reaction when race is discussed. Folks don’t bother to read what is actually said and instead react emotionally to certain words and phrases.
Kate R
March 17
2:55 pm
heh. you’re probably right, Karen, but I’ve read the words a couple of times and it still comes out that way. Since my reaction to the reaction was the same sort of thing you’re writing (“read what I wrote”), I think I’m way too meta now.
Kate R
March 17
3:06 pm
please visit my blog and weigh in.
Tate
March 17
3:08 pm
Monica said, “I find that an extremely common reaction when race is discussed. Folks don’t bother to read what is actually said and instead react emotionally to certain words and phrases.”
This, of course, applies to you as well. I am not certain you read what I wrote but I know that you are altering what I wrote.
Monica made this false statement, “Tate didn’t bother to read the posts of almost all the black authors and the many comments that stated that black romance isn’t different from white romance.”
I have read these comments and past comments and comments from other blogs concerning this issue. It’s hard to believe to that black romance is different from white romance when the, admittedly few, AA romances I have picked up have been written in a voice that I don’t speak or are slyly race political. I will certainly take some of the advice to try again per Shiloh’s recommendations.
Monica said, “Somehow she believes that blacks are fundamentally different from her in the way we conduct romance and our lives. That’s not an easy belief to change or even discuss with the person as instant defensiveness is usually the result.”
I don’t have much defensiveness about this issue. I just get tired of having the race issue brought up to bash me for being white. The whole agenda of these discussions seems to be that white women are not buying AA books. I have explained why I don’t buy AA ROMANCE but I do certainly buy books written by black authors. So the question isn’t about where AA books are put in the bookstore but how to get white women to want to buy them regardless of where they can be found.
Now about defensiveness, your previous comment about being a “white woman with a great tan” sounds awfully defensive.
Monica made this sly innuendo about me, “And with that belief, which is generally pretty obvious to us once we get to know someone, she still thinks her black acquaintances would confide in her about race!”
You seem to be implying that I don’t have black friends, merely black acquaintances. Why would you think that let alone imply it?
I do have black acquaintances and black clients but the blacks I was specifically referring to are real friends and/or lovers. We have discussed differences of race but they don’t rant about it. Are you inferring they are too afraid to bring it up?
Kate R
March 17
3:46 pm
Shit.
Damn.
You were right.
I reread roz’s first remarks again (I didn’t bother with the later ones) and it is all about the atmosphere. The words “white” in that rant referred to the culture and not the race. Still, it would have been nice if she’d made that point and…oh, never mind.
[shuffling my feet, clearing my throat, cursing some more]
Sorry.
I think I’ll go shovel snow.
Anonymous
March 17
3:46 pm
The last AA romance I picked up didn’t appeal because the language was ghetto.
No JR Ward books for you, then?
Tate
March 17
3:54 pm
I have never read JR Ward.
Anne
March 17
4:18 pm
I’m not burying my head in the sand at all, and for you to say I am is wrong because YOU DON’T KNOW ME. I read AA romance ALL the time from authors I KNOW. How do I know them? They MARKET THEMSELVES.
I’ve got the perfect example of how promo could help AA authors. compare AA authors versus other authors to ebook authors versus print authors…
Print authors have their publishers to do a lot of their promo, making them seen on shelves etc. while the ebook author is on their own. So, what do they do? Rather than sitting around bitching and pointing fingers, they promo themselves.
Join groups, lists, authors lists, author/reader lists, Writerspace, Access Romance, get their name out there. They chat on blogs, they make themselves seen and get their name out there… effectively getting others familiar with their name.
Just a suggestion. Take it or leave it.
Kate R
March 17
4:23 pm
shit again.
I did want to apologize, but not TWICE.
Still I do think it’s worth my whitey POV: that when I see the word white, I don’t think think of the society in which I live–I think of people who happen to be beigey pink, like me. The color of the main culture is invisible to me for obvious reasons (even though I don’t feel a part of the mainstream, race isn’t one of the reasons.)
I know making people comfortable isn’t the point, but what the heck, might as well point out the semantics thing. If people keep getting offended when you use the word white in that context, and the point is to keep the discussion as open as possible, why not choose another word?
Sure, I was wrong to get all high horsey, but why bother with the tension when there can be another way to phrase it?
Kate R
March 17
4:24 pm
WHY DOES THIS DOUBLE THING KEEP HAPPENING?
sorry, Karen.
rozlips
March 17
5:31 pm
Tate if you read a book that was full of nonstandard English, in all likelihood it wasn’t a black romance. It was urban lit, which is an entirely different genre. If you’d like, I’d be more than happy to recommend some books to you that wouldn’t offend your sensibilities. Most black romances are about the same middle to upper middle class people as white romances. Some are even about wealthy people. I’ve been reading them for more than a decade and haven’t come across any that were full of non-standard vernacular. As for subliminal slights at white people, I would have to know what titles you read in order to comment. Most of the monoracial black books I’ve read don’t say anything about white people at all. (I know its hard to believe, given that some folks seem to believe whites are the center of the universe.) The only ones I’ve read that mention race are the interracial ones, and some of those don’t mention it either.
“If an AA author wrote “white” to pick up the 74% market which includes rubes like me then all the other AA romance writers would call her an Aunt Thomasina.”
Actually Tate, a black author did try to ‘write white’ and was forbidden to do so by her publisher. Presumably you haven’t missed the situation with Millenia Black. Blacks aren’t allowed to write white characters and even if we do, they still go in the Negro section of the bookstore. Interestingly enough, when white authors write black characters this doesn’t occur. So ‘writing white’ isn’t an option regardless of what black readers would call you.
“I understand that, but its flawed in that its the MONEY that gives the power.”
Sallahdog, when someone has their foot on your throat you’re not looking up to see if they’re wearing Christian Laboutin or Jimmy Choos. I really don’t care WHY the power structure in this country is white. Suffice it to say that it is.
Kate R
March 17
5:59 pm
Roz,
If you don’t look at the people you’re talking to (and you’re talking to a particular group of readers here, not The White Power) and pay attention to what they’re actually saying then you’re having a knee jerk response as bad as the one I had to you.
I see it’s a matter of semantics, associations with a particular word etc. If you don’t see that, and you don’t give a damn about trying to get past that problem for the people who’re talking with you, then maybe there is some racism at play for you, as well. You’re not getting the point what white means to people who happen to be that color. For us it’s a skin color–OUR skin color–and not the ID tag of an oppressive culture.
Our kneejerk response gets in the way of your valid points. Sure, it’s a nuisance for you, but if you’re trying to get more than the AA community involved (the point of your first post) then you should know that.
Sensitivity to the audience’s POV is important. Even if you think the audience is full of shit, if you’re trying to reach them, it behooves you to where they’re coming from as well.
Shiloh Walker
March 17
7:08 pm
For us it’s a skin color–OUR skin color–and not the ID tag of an oppressive culture.
I think this is part of the problem. So many of the comments made about the white culture/white power (which by the way is really offendsive because it brings the image of neo nazis to mind), it’s used in such a broad manner that a lot of people going to feel as if they are being painted with the same brush as somebody who took a book back because it had black people, or the people who automatically assume that s black person can’t do the same job as well as a white person, and the list can go on.
Yeah, there are plenty of blind bigots out there with this mindset, plenty of people with thier minds so full of their own self worth and hatred of anybody not like them, and it sickens me. However, I’m not them. The fact that I’m white doesn’t make me like them.
I’m not saying that anybody here directly pointed a finger at any one person and said that is the way it is, but those broad, sweeping generalizations will do it just the same.
I’ve been following these conversations enough to realize that I can’t take every reference a black person makes about whites as a personal insult, but I can see why some people do get defensive. Nobody likes it when somebody makes mass assumptions about a race in general because the actions of others. We all hate that and it tends to happen in these sort of discussions.
Anne
March 17
7:11 pm
So many of the comments made about the white culture/white power (which by the way is really offendsive because it brings the image of neo nazis to mind), it’s used in such a broad manner that a lot of people going to feel as if they are being painted with the same brush as somebody who took a book back because it had black people, or the people who automatically assume that s black person can’t do the same job as well as a white person, and the list can go on.
Well said, Shiloh. Well said.
Kate R
March 17
7:49 pm
I wasn’t going keep going on about the point because compared to racial issues that get in the way of a person’s advancement in life, labeling the whole system “white” is not a big deal.
But if it gets in the way of real dialogue it’s worth belaboring. And really, most racism is tiny– The day-to-day grinding-down little crap. A lot is unconscious, not rude, just not taking someone else’s POV into account.
rozlips
March 17
9:43 pm
And y’all wonder why black people don’t want to talk about racism, white supremacy and white skin privilege with white people. The facts are what they are. No one is trying to make you feel bad. If acknowledging that we live in a white supremacist power structure in this country has that effect on you, how is that my fault? Institutionalized racism is the reason blacks were disenfranchised from the publishing industry for so long. Institutionalized racism is why there’s an assumption that books written by blacks are somehow inferior to those written by whites. Those are simple facts. No one is blaming you for them, but those are the facts. I’ll be damned and double damned to hell in back if I’m going to lie just to preserve your tender sensibilities. If you’re that sheltered and unaware then I can’t help you. One would assume that one can have a frank discussion with grown women without people getting their knickers in a knot over shit that doesn’t have anything to do with them. Unless you’re a publisher or the owner of a bookstore its not about you. And I think its absurd that anyone would have to caveat such statements to accomodate you. I’m a grown woman. I have no problem speaking my mind, and I’m certainly not mealy-mouthed. If I thought you were racist and wanted to call you a racist I would not hesitate to do so in uncertain terms. But I can’t believe that you actually think I’m going to take the word racism out of this discussion just because it offends you. If you find it that goddamned offensive perhaps you should check your own self.
Kate R
March 17
9:57 pm
who said take racism out of it?
the word white is a stumbling block, pure and simple. You can’t change how many white people are going to respond to the use of that word as a stand-in for an oppressive culture.
I thought you wanted a real dialogue. (see your post above)Please read my messages and take out the word white and substitute freeb or something less charged. Maybe you’ll get the message that I want MORE people to get YOUR basic message but it’s almost impossible unless you see my point.
Karen, please close the comments only to shut me the hell up, please? Or ban me or something Oh shit, it’s late in your time zone. I now ban myself because life is too short for this. ANd I have to make dinner.
Karen Scott
March 17
10:08 pm
Roz, you’ve already put me in a position where I had to defend your right to your opinions, not once, but twice, tonight, and I don’t really want to have to do it again, especially as you and I have a history of not singing from the same hymn sheet.
I will shut the comments off if I have to, because this thread is going nowhere fast. This is about AA authors, not getting a fair slice of the pie, let’s stick to that and stop getting our knickers in a twist about racism in general.
We know racism exists, some of us have experienced it, some of us haven’t. There are racists everywhere, some are white, some are black, and some are Asian. A racist, is a racist, is a racist, regardless of their colour. Period.
Let’s move on, and look at what Marcia King Gamble had to say. She had some interesting points to make.
Anonymous
March 17
10:08 pm
Wait a minute. You want to have a discussion about racism without using the word white? Because some white people might get offended? Can the word black still be used? Or maybe we can just switch to star bellied sneetches and plain belly sneetches…
K Evanouskas
Tate
March 17
11:19 pm
Karen said, “This is about AA authors, not getting a fair slice of the pie, let’s stick to that”
What is their fair slice of the pie? Should the pie slice reflect along race lines or something else?
Kristie (J)
March 17
11:25 pm
Getting away from the whole racism thing for a moment and back to what I think was part of the topic, I thank the authors who are taking part in Karen’s poll and are willing to do an interview. You have helped raise my conciousness. For those who didn’t, well, it’s well within their rights not to participate. But to then turn around and get angry at Karen who is trying to do something – whether they agree or not – strikes me as very sad for them.
rozlips
March 18
12:04 am
Karen, I’m confused. I’m not trying to be difficult, but I truly have no idea what the problem is. I’m not talking about racism in general. I am now, and always have been talking about racism in the publishing industry. Is that not the source of the book segregation in the first place? And frankly, I have not discussed individual racists and have no interest in doing so. Frankly I don’t see how they’re germane to the topic. My posts have been about the publishing industry and their racist practices. (I have no idea if the publishers themselves are racist, but certainly their practices are.) If people choose to read my posts and think otherwise there’s not a whole helluva lot I can do about that.
How can we talk about book segregation without talking about racism? Perhaps my synapses aren’t firing, but I’m truly lost.
Oh, so its not the word racism you have a problem with Kate, its the word white. Books are segregated for many reason. One of them is the belief that black books are inferior. That’s a white supremacist concept. How can we have a discussion about white supremacy without calling it white supremacy? There’s a further belief that whites might buy our books accidentally and feel they’ve been ‘tricked’ into doing so. That too is informed by white supremacy. There’s an assumption that only blacks would want to read about blacks and somehow blacks and whites are so inherently different that the books have to be segregated. That in some ways is based in white skin privilege. These belief systems are fundamental to the issue of book segregation. I don’t know what else you can call it to keep from offending people. It is what it is.
Kate R
March 18
1:32 am
roz,
I’m almost done, really.
I’m going to try to break this down so you get what I’m saying.
I was offended and THEN I realized whoa, my offense is based on a knee jerk reaction.
I’m not arguing it’s a good or bad reaction. It’s just THERE. It’s a matter of CONNOTATIONS or SEMANTICS not a basic truth. It gets in the way of the important stuff.
IF you want to talk to people without offending them and I did think you wanted to (now I’m not as sure), you have to accept the fact that they have their own dumb baggage. You’re not them so you can’t say whether or not their response is valid or not. Actually it’s feelings and that’s not a matter of validity.
What is true is that this “yer a racist” “no YER one” seems to happen again and again so it’s worthwhile trying to find a common language.
IF someone says to you, hey, that word hurts me, I take it personally, can we discuss the subject using another word. I’d take their offense seriously even if I think they’re being oversensitive.
The point is getting a civilized conversation about an important topic. If you can’t understand why a white person would would be offended by using the word white as a catch-all term that way, perhaps you can accept that the feelings are real and no matter how stupid you think they are, if you want to talk, you’ll have to deal with it.
You even have to respect it or they’ll suspect you don’t actually give a shit about bringing them into the dialogue after all
Otherwise you just end up with a huge bunch of posts like the ones I’m writing and never getting past the point that yes, there is a huge problem with racism. Yes, the people hurt are mostly black. Yes, most of the people who are keeping the status quo are white. I can see that. I don’t deny it.
THe problem is the word white as a catch all for that particular group of established power is that it gets in the way of the argument. Why? Because the word white means something different to me. The word white means ME to me.
I can’t change the fact that I’m white, and I can’t change that kneejerk response. I can try to explain why using another phrase (powerful majority?) and I can do a better job later on reading the phrases. and not, like Karen said, jumping to the wrong conclusions.
You can respect the basic difference that you might not agree with (or understand) but that gets in the way of important change and move along to the What the HELL do we do as writers and individuals.
And Karen? If I post again, ban me. I’m serious.
Kate R
March 18
1:33 am
damn the double posting happened again!
I don’t get this. I do NOT push twice.
Kate R
March 18
1:45 am
HEY one last thing.
About the reaching wider audience I forgot I was going to say this:
Mercedes Lackey.
The woman has space in two places in the stores now. Fantasy and romance. (I THINK I saw a book in two spots that had two different back cover copy. Now that’s marketing)
If AA authors want to stay with their niche market but reach the wider audience, maybe their publishers should figure out a way to do a Mercedes Lackey. Damn that woman’s good.
Anonymous
March 18
2:58 am
So you blacks got your start because publishers wanted to create black imprints and now it’s somehow offensive and racist.
Maybe publishers should just stop creating AA romance imprints and have you swim with the rest of the population and see if you’re more successful that way.
BTW — Kate and a few other people have stated that they find the term “White Supremacy” offensive and that it makes it difficult for them to concentrate on the real issue — shelf segregation. Yet Roz insists on using the term REPEATEDLY instead of finding some other terms like DISCRIMINATION or PREJUDICE. Why is it that if a non-black person uses the word “nigger” which black people find offensive it’s automatically racist, but when a black person persists in using a term that other non-blacks / whites find offensive, it’s just telling it like it is?
Karen Scott
March 18
10:35 am
End of.