What Is Going On At Elloras Cave Publishing? Some Of Their Authors Tell Us…
Saturday, May 5, 2007Posted in: authors being treated badly, Editing woes, ellorascave
I was going to let the blog settle down before I posted some of the responses from various EC authors, but what the hell, TTG and I are going away for the weekend, so might as well post, and run, whilst I can.
Anyway, without further ado, here are some of the responses from current EC authors:
“Crissy (Bashear) left EC under less than pleasant circumstances. She wasn’t treated fairly, in my opinion, however, she handled it in a very classy manner. She opened her own publisher and Samhain is doing wonderfully. They’ve already established a reputation for delivering quality books… AND getting the print books to print outlets.”
EC, on the other hand, doesn’t fulfill print orders. A print outlet orders so many copies of one popular author and EC would like them to purchase ALL authors so instead of sending the requested amount of the requested authors…they send a hodgepodge. Now if I went into the store and said I want a pair of silver earrings with pearls and they gave me brass with garnets, I’d be irritated as all I get out. When I’m buying, *I* get the choice of what I buy. Not the person selling it.”
“I know some people are growing unhappy with things there (no, I can’t name any names offhand. I’ve heard rumors, nothing more.) I know some policies are changing with regard to print and I think people are frustrated by the lack of info being given about that. And I think the growing sense that EC’s standards have slipped bothers everyone.
For me I think the problem is the incredibly long response time on subs. I think they should have closed to subs for six months some time ago to clear out the backlog, because talented writers are subbing elsewhere rather than wait. The only editor there I know is my own, but I know they were really crushing for editors a while back so can only guess they may have hired some people whose work wasn’t stellar.”
“It’s disheartening to see new authors coming in with numerous contracts. It’s discouraging to see less and less of the old standards anchoring the new release page.”
“I like my overworked EC editor. So far, I’ve not been asked to add any sex. Though, xxxx was revised from sensual to erotic. Btw, no anal sex was involved in heating the story up. And, as far as I know no new editors were hired in recent months.”
“First, editors are NOT allowed to change content of the books at all. They aren’t allowed to edit sentences, etc. Basically, they just line edit it seems. As you can tell from the quality of the books. Second, did you know that EC is selling their print rights? They just did it to one author and a few others are up for auction.
They are asking for LIFETIME contracts from newbie authors, and established authors they are asking for 10 years”
“Samhain has people who love the romance genre. EC has several people in the executive level, so to speak, that don’t care for romance at all. People who come from a background of sales and not romance, not publishing, nada. It’s hard to really sell a product unless you understand it. And if you hate it? Much harder.”
“It’s sad that EC seems to be losing more and more readers. Between you and me, I have to agree about the quality of writing of the new authors. I lament the loss of older, quality authors who no longer write for EC or in some cases release a book here and there. Those were the good old days. In conversations I’ve had with some author friends, we all privately agreed that it’s probably time to seek new opportunities elsewhere. SIGH.”
“Any EC author who says they haven’t been told to “sex it up” is lying. It’s a public message you see over and over in the company announcements, so it isn’t just on the editor-level. You learn by the end of the editing process on your first book to put smut in the forefront.
It has only gotten worse since NY started playing in EC’s pool. As an example, the book I am currently editing for them has xxxxx words and two sex scenes……, so it actually focuses on the plot. I took it to EC after my contract expired, and the first thing I heard was to add more sex–at least one more scene, and to really punch up the existing scenes. I guess I’ll have to add some anal or something. In contrast, I just read xxxxx’s “xxxxx” It has three sex scenes for the 100,000 word novel. EC never would have let her get away with that. It’s ridiculous. I can live with writing erotic romance as long as there is still plot and characters. But I didn’t sign on to write porn!”
“I know they are still selling ebooks and many are going to continue to buy for the titillation factor alone, but they’ve lost many readers who want it all, good hot sex and a good hot story. I know it for a fact because I hear it all the time, plus I rarely buy from them anymore unless it’s one of the books by my fave authors, which are fewer and fewer with them. EC sales are down and I guess they figure if they put out more and more, it will make up for it.”
“Yes, your review struck a chord because it underscores the current situation at EC. To begin with, I wasn’t happy about the Wednesday and Friday new releases but I’m thinking they need the money. But quantity doesn’t mean quality. That’s the problem.”
“When I started with EC…, Crissy was the publisher. I liked her and personally never had a problem with her. Since she left, a lot of changes have been instituted, most of which I don’t agree with. There are a ton of new authors onboard–some newbies, some previously pubbed–but not all of them are talented. They’re prolific, though, some like Carol Lynne with multiple books lined up with release dates well into August and September.”
“You’ll love this. EC told the authors the reason they are taking out all the commas is because commas make the readers stumble as they read, and the faster the reader reads, the more books we sell. Wow. I guess they don’t take into account that most adults know how to use commas fairly well.
They probably aren’t as adept with them as professional writers–note I say pros, not necessarily the authors EC is taking on–but they are going to notice when the commas aren’t there. That is just one of the many bitches I could share about EC. The print program is a joke. The checks are late half the time, but that’s all the post office’s doing. They flat-out lie, telling us the checks were sent on time, and then they show up weeks later with a postmark that’s three days previous. Uh huh. IF you dare ask about if/when the payments were mailed, you have fellow EC authors jumping to the company’s defense. …., brainwashed fools IMO.”
“I think they need to be reminded that their loyal readers want it all. This isn’t going to happen unless readers complain. Loudly. Very loudly. And not just on blogs. They’ve changed their methods in the past because of reader complaints, IE: they no longer accept F/F stories of any sort because readers didn’t like them. Even if it was just a brief scene in a book. They started looking for more interracial and more M/M because readers requested them. I’d like to think that if readers start strongly requesting better books, they’d do something about it.”
“EC could go back to the quality they once had. They still have some great authors. But the great authors are being forced to wait months and months for release dates because the schedule chock full of what they’ve been putting out lately. They aren’t going to make that change unless they are made very aware that is needed. I’d like to see it happen before it’s too late.”
“I didn’t even get the cover until a week before release, which gave me no time to ask for changes, basically tying my hands. I wasn’t able to do any advertising or promo, which is almost impossible to do without a cover. But hey, I smiled and said thanks. I already knew bitching wasn’t going to get me anywhere.”
“I wanted to compliment you on drawing attention to the craphole EC has become. Unfortunately, I can’t publicly support you…In private, I’ll tell you they couldn’t manage their way out of a paper box with a flashlight. Bunch of incompetent idiots running that place. I’ve had the fortune to work with two really great editors at EC, but they both left long ago.”
“Unfortunately, the powers that be at EC can get very petty when they perceive one of their authors is being critical of them. Unfair to the point that they threaten legal action, claiming libel, slander and whatever. I don’t really want or need that trouble. So far, they haven’t ever caused me any trouble and I fly under their radar. I want to keep it that way. High seller or not, if some people at EC get ticked off at me, they will cause me trouble. They’ve done it for a couple of their highest sellers so I’m under no illusions it wouldn’t happen to me.”
“I will always be grateful for EC for giving me my start, but as long as it is financially feasible, I will not be writing anything else for them….after I finish my contracted commitments.”
UPDATED WITH FURTHER AUTHOR RESPONSES:
“You can use my words, but not my name, please. I’m a coward and I’m scared of EC. I’ll tell you right now that they’re so incredibly litigious most of their authors are too scared to speak out (hence my wish to remain anonymous). That’s why you get such a love-fest online.”
It’s little things, like EC’s ongoing war against punctuation. I had all the colons and semi-colons taken out of my book, and a lot of the commas too (for instance a character saying, “Karen, wait a minute,” would be changed to “Karen wait a minute.” Just…looks wrong to my eye). This is EC policy, actually sent out in their Style Sheet.
“Any request takes days to be answered, and if it involves Raelene, often weeks. Asking readers to email her will probably have little effect since her inbox is apparently the size of Texas. I had a couple of royalty requests…. that were either ignored or refused. The first cover I was given looked like it had been done in 10 minutes with Photoshop and bore little resemblance to the painstakingly written cover request I’d been encouraged to fill out in detail.”
“The bigger issue, the one that really annoys me. EC now issues, what, eight e-books a week? But hardly anything is getting into print. Every now and then we get a marvellously exciting email about some new print partner, but the fact remains that EC hasn’t made a print schedule available to authors since August last year.”
“We were told we’d be notified 10-12 weeks before our books went into print, and that as Raelene had had so many emails asking for more details, we weren’t to ask any more. That’s right, we were told not to ask when our books would be coming out. No matter that any promotion worth its while in a big publication needs far more than 3 months’ notice. There wasn’t even a ballpark figure to go on.”
“EC has such a tight grip on contracts that getting your rights back is now relegated to the status of mythic legend, and according to rumour they’re getting worse, adding sneakier clauses (and remember newbie authors are way, way too poor to afford lawyers) and often refusing to negotiate. Still I’ve learned my lesson now… EC is treating authors like mushrooms these days: kept in the dark and fed on shit.”
So, there you have it, reading the above, and the numerous comments on previous posts leads me to conclude that something is definitely awry at EC. To borrow one of my mum’s favourite phrases; A thousand flies on shit can’t be wrong.
Will things change? Probably not. Do they care? I’m sure they do, but if they aren’t willing to change things up a bit for their readers, then it becomes a moot point.
Sex sells, and it sells well, but even the people who enjoy smut for the sake of it will start to get very tired, when nothing else is offered up.
This really isn’t a witch hunt. I have spent far too much money at EC to be slating them just for the sake of it. I simply want quality to win over quantity. I simply want authors who know the difference between erotic romance and porn. I simply want editors, who know what the word means.
I will happily continue to buy their books, if the standards improve. Whether that will happen, remains to be seen.
As for their mutually beneficial relationship with RT’s Kathryn Falk? Hmmmm….
Shiloh Walker
May 5
2:36 pm
I wasn’t going to comment on this just because a lot of this is individual opinions or experiences.
It’s generalized and generalized comments are rarely accurate. I dunno who the chick is that said it, but nobody has emailed me and asked, Hey, has EC told you to add more sex?
Any EC author who says they haven’t been told to “sex it up” is lying.
I don’t like being called a liar by somebody who doesn’t know me or work with me. The few times I’ve been asked to add anything to an EC book, it was because my editor wanted clarification on something in the plot, or the most recent case, she wanted ‘closure’ for a secondary. Not a lick of sex involved.
Does she edit the love scenes? Well, yeah. If a decription is lacking, she wants it addressed, but that’s not sexing it up. It’s editing. If something is anatomically impossible, she wants it fixed.
But she has never sent a MS back to me and said, it needs more sex.
MORE SEX might be the motto but a good editor ought to know when more is needed and when the book works as is.
And I just gotta say that I totally love my editor at EC. She’s been with me since the beginning and I love her to death.
Karen, you certainly have made this past week an interesting one in blogland.
Rosie
May 5
4:03 pm
The reality for me is that I’m spending probably 10% of what I used to spend a month at EC. Yes, I do think the overall quality of the books at EC has declined. Volume seems to be a logical conclusion. It’s not news that quantity doesn’t make up for quality.
I’m not one to talk about the good old days with reverance. Time moves on and things change. I just hope this isn’t a permanent change for EC because when they started there was a lot less competition than there is now.
EC will always be a sentimental favorite of mine. But, speaking for myself only, if the selection doesn’t improve, I will soon not be buying any books at all there.
Jane
May 5
4:42 pm
I think one of the biggest problems that EC will face is the rise of epublishing out of NY. I.e., Harper Collins and Harlequin are both going to be releasing ebook novellas in their Red and Spice lines respectively. If readers can get the same titillation factor with better editing behind it, you wonder whether EC can maintain putting out the 8 books a week?
After all, their prices are quite high. I noticed the other day that there was a book at 7.99. The prices, along with the quality issues, makes me wary of buying there in the future.
Mrs Giggles
May 5
5:25 pm
I’ll wait and see about NY publishers. Previously they think nothing of charging $24.95 for an ebook version of a hardcover, so I’m not sure if their ebooks will be less pricey compared to EC’s. Although EC (and Loose-Id) pushing a cover price of $7.99 on their longer books are really pushing their luck if you ask me. These $7.99 books aren’t close to your usual Stephen King/Nora Roberts type.
The EC drama is entertaining to follow but I am never that big on EC anyway. They tend to be too focused on threesomes and watered-down BDSM and nearly all their outputs have the same vampire/werewolf/space-barbarian storyline with an emphasis on forceful mating and magic vaginas. Like many others, I tend to purchase from familiar authors. I vastly prefer the books from Samhain (have variety and the pricing is better) and Liquid Silver (the stories can be most original or unique at times – they are like the Dorchester to EC’s Avon).
Could EC’s 8 books a week be an attempt to recoup money though? Their side projects don’t seem to be taking off like EC and they seem to have invested considerable amount of money in setting up these ventures. Cerridwen doesn’t seem to get as much attention as EC. The Lotus Circle… eh, I don’t know what to make of it. Anyone read their first two books on sale? I like Marilyn Campbell when she was published with Onyx/Signet but I don’t know what to make of the whole “I am now a New Age spiritualist” thing she is having now.
Sarah McCarty
May 5
7:17 pm
I’ve got to say, Karen, though I know you’re all for honesty, this reads to me more like a gripe fest than an accurate assessment.
A couple points:
1)It only costs $200 to have an attorney review a contract. Less if an author is an RWA member. Certainly affordable. If an author chooses not to have an attorney review their contracts, (the life blood of their career) then the consequences are on them, not the publishing company. The publisher owes the author nothing other than what’s spelled out in the contract. In the negotiations, each side protects their own interests. Thoe interests and obligations are spelled out in the contract. The publishing house retains an attorney to insure their rights are protected. It’s usualy only the author that chooses to fly solo. And, if they haven’t educated themselves, it’s usualy a mistake.
I, too, have battled the comma issue. I, too, have battled through contract negotiations. The latter I have done at every publisher. Sometimes I win and sometiems I lose. *shrug* It’s part of the business.
Business being the operative term Authors have their side of the negotiations and publishers have theirs. Both sides have the right to run their businesses the way they want. If they can reach a happy compromise in the contract, they’ll work together. If they can’t, then authors will move on and Publishers will replace them with new ones. It’s not personal. It’s jut the natural ebb and flow of the industry.
I, for example, was not able to negotiate a contract on my recent novella/anthology propoasl with EC. Both sides tried, negotiations were perfectly calm and civilized but there was just one point that was a deal killer for us both and we couldn’t find a work around. When we came to the agreement that we were dead in the water, I sent the proposal to my agent who sold it later that day to a NY house. I’m a little saddened that the current contract prevents me from writing for EC, but I never thought it was personal. EC and I just have different needs right now.
I believe it’s way too easy to think one’s own focus or experience constitutes the whole picture, but likely it’s not. Maybe EC is changing its focus. I don’t know, but even if they are, that doesn’t mean it’s going down the toilet. It doesn’t mean new authors suck. It just means the company is changing according to the direction the corporate profit and loss column says is beneficial to them.
How any one person feels about that is going to vary according to the individual
Kate R
May 5
10:53 pm
I’ve never, ever been told by any of my three EC editors (long story) to put in more sex. Other EC writers have told me that E and X books (as in S E X) sell far better than S so that’s a motivation.
Hey have you read Mrs G’s 80-rated review of Ben’s Wildflower.
Anonymous
May 6
1:32 am
And yet, EC is still one of the only publishers whose books JERR reviews, leaving out potentially better publishers like Phaze.
And the punctuation thing? I know that with another publisher, I quibbled with the editor over grammar changes–as an English teacher, I think I know my way around English grammar well enough to defend good old fashioned commas, semi-colons and whatnot.
L.E. Bryce
http://www.lebryce.com
Barbara Sheridan
May 6
3:23 am
I tend to be a quiet type but I feel the need to open my big yap.
I think this is all a case of “It depends on who you talk to.” I’ve heard people gripe about EC asking for “rights for life” and that their contract is “evil” but I’ve not seen it. When I sold my western and timetravel to the Cerridwen side I compared the contract to the agent negotiated one I had for the first incarnation of the timetravel (that sold to Berkley in NY). There were one or two points that differed and when I asked for changes they were made with no problem. One contract was negotiated with Cris before she left and the other with Raelene when she took over.
I just signed a new contact for the EC side not long ago. Again I asked for a change and no problem. My co-writer’s contract was slightly different since she was brand new to the company. I discussed the points I thought would be best for her to consider having changed and again no problem about having those changes made. That included something I thought she’d get an argument on from them.
No, I’m not one of those Rah Rah, the company is always right types. I admit that it took freaking forever to get the changed paperwork back but it was all signed sealed and delivered in time for our book to be released for the upcoming Quickies series.
People are harping on the “OMG EC is selling print rights!” Maybe I’m wrong but I’m assuming this is in reference to the deal they have with Pocket to take groups of novellas and package them into anthologies. Come on people, who wouldn’t want to have a book put out by Pocket? You wanna give up your slot? I’ll take it. Anything lost off the author profit for a novella sized work is worth it to me when you consider the
distribution that size company can get you. Consider it the cost of promo.
In the all sex no plot being pushed department, I haven’t experienced it. Granted the upcoming short is the first thing I’ve had run through the EC side of the company but apart from our editor asking for a bit more detail where it was definitely needed we weren’t told to sex things up.
Anonymous
May 6
3:23 am
No commas? Why stop there? Why not leave out the periods, and captial letters. Make each book one long paragraph like the first draft of On the Road.
Anonymous
May 6
10:22 am
I have no idea where the one anon got the idea that EC editors are not allowed to do more than line edits. I’ve worked with two different editors and both of them have suggested changes, asked for cuts and expansions, asked for rewordings, etc.
And–this isn’t an EC-specific issue–why do people assume adding sex automatically means losing plot? My EC books have plenty of both. EC is an erotic publisher. Books published with them are expected to be erotic and have a lot of sex. If you don’t want to write a lot of sex, they’re not the publisher for you. That’s made pretty obvious, so I don’t see why people are complaining about being asked to add sex–if they are, which I was not, and neither were any of the EC authors I’ve discussed this with privately.
I find it interesting that one the one hand you have people claiming no editing is done, but on the other hand we hear that editors are asking for plot to be romoved and more sex put in. Which is it?
Are there some crap books being put out by EC? Sure. Just like there are crap books being put out by every other publisher. They can’t all be winners, all the time, and people have different tastes.
Are there some authors not being treated as well as they could be? It looks like it from the comments, but again, we hear about writers pubbed with NY publishers all the time who feel they were treated unprofessionally.
The idea that it’s only at EC that some writers aren’t happy is silly.
And their sales aren’t dropping, either. I’d like to know where that Anon got that impression, because it sure isn’t from any figures I’ve seen.
Karen, I think you’re great, I love your blog, and you have the right to say whatever you like, but it would be nice if you could turn this treatment to some other publishers as well and let’s see what kind of comments you get about those, so we can have a fair comparison. I think you’ll find people having the same complaints everywhere.
Sarah McCarty
May 6
1:04 pm
The anons are right. Everyone’s experience at a publisher is going to vary based on a variety of factors including their expectations, their assertiveness and what’s important to them. That’s why two people can look at the exact same contract and see it as either great or bad. That’s why the same two people can write for the same publisher and walk away with different impressions of the experience.
I loved writing for EC and I had a wonderful time publishing there. If circumstances changed, I would publish there again in a heartbeat. I imagine many more writers are going to have just as much fun and develop just as many fond memories.
Karen Scott
May 6
1:15 pm
but it would be nice if you could turn this treatment to some other publishers as well and let’s see what kind of comments you get about those, so we can have a fair comparison.
But that’s just it, most of my book buying used to be done at EC, which is why it bothers me so much. I don’t really care what Avon does, or what Berkley or Pocketbooks do. So to make a comparison would imply that this was some sort of random analysis, when it clearly isn’t.
This is an emotional reaction to a publishing company that I’ve always liked because they were different. Sure there were crap books before, but if I bought four books from EC, at least two of them used to be ok, and even if I didn’t like the book, the editing was still ok enough for me not to raise my eyebrows.
These days, I struggle to find books that don’t have some major editing issues.
The books edited by staff who have been at EC for a while are still ok, but those seem to be far and few between these days.
If you read my blog often enough, then you’ll know that my posts are generally very random, but sometimes, certain posts do raise additional questions for me, so I’ll ask those questions, and keep asking them until I’m satisfied, or bored, then I move on.
To suggest that this is a witch hunt, (not that you have specifically) implies that I have a hidden agenda. Well let me tell you, all subjects are fair game on this blog, and political correctness and malicious machinations are things that just doesn’t belong on my blog.
This probably hasn’t affected EC sales much, and probably wont, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t issues.
I’m not the only reader who has been complaining about the quality of the books at EC. There have been murmurings for month, but instead of complaining, some readers have probably just stopped purchasing the books altogether.
Anonymous
May 6
2:42 pm
I’ve heard people gripe about EC asking for “rights for life” and that their contract is “evil” but I’ve not seen it.
Maybe someone was thinking of Trisk? Cuz I know that’s how their contract is and they refused to negotiate a thing.
December Quinn
May 6
5:13 pm
Sorry, Karen, I certainly didn’t mean to imply that this was a witch hunt, and I should have been more specific. I wasn’t even necessarily referring to the quality of books, more the complaints by authors–relating to small/epublishers–about contracts, cover art, print schedules.
Your issues with EC, while lamentable to EC authors–especially those of us now panicking at the thought that our books may not sell as well as we expect if our publisher gains a reputation for putting out shit–are your own, and you can think what you want,and I for one sincerely hope EC management is paying attention. All I can say about that is I wish things were different.
I don’t think you have a hidden agenda and I think this is an important issue. But I’m specifically talking about authors complaining about management, about contracts, etc., not the quality of work. These are complaints of the sort you’ll find anywhere, and there are worse publishers than EC as far as treatment of authors. That’s all I meant–and that I would find such a comparison interesting and informative. I just hate to see it looking like EC is the only epub authors complain about.
Patrice Michelle
May 6
5:20 pm
Karen,
I haven’t taken this as a witch hunt. I’ve been to your blog enough to know you really like EC books…and I figured your dedication to EC as a publisher was the reason for your posts.
In response to the person who talked about adding sex to books, I don’t know how many times I’ve said this *sigh*, but I have NEVER, not once in 4 years writing for EC been asked to add sex to my books, and I have a mix of S and E rated books with 3 different editors. I think it’s individual experience that makes the difference–everyone’s going to have a different one, I suppose.
Anonymous
May 6
6:36 pm
I can only comment as a reader. For awhile I was reading alot of EC. Despite the recent rise in the number of new titles, find myself purchasing almost nothing (although I still cruise their new titles weekly). Maybe it’s me…I need a change, or a phase I going thru…Just sayin. I’ve purchased a couple of my EC auto buy authors in the past few months, otherwise nothing. -deni
Anonymous
May 6
6:52 pm
I used to purchase a load of books with EC. I haven’t recently I’m not sure why, maybe I just grew out of them.
To those Anon authors calling other authors liars for saying that they’ve never been asked to add sex – Why is it a case of if you don’t admit you’ve had to add sex then you are a liar? Surely it is reasonable to assume EC will ask some authors to add more sex and not others?
cecilia250
May 6
7:57 pm
I’ll concur with the some of the recent reader comments. I used to buy quite regularly, but have not been buying anywhere near the same amount recently. On the “new releases” page up right now (not the home page) which has dozens of titles, I’ve only purchased one. I suppose my taste could be somewhat different, but I don’t think that’s the main issue. I find plenty elsewhere to purchase.
December Quinn suggested writers may feel panicky over people maybe not buying their books from EC if EC gets a reputation for producing crap. What seems likely to me is that the writers who’ve been around, and who have established readerships, will continue to sell (although, whether they’ll choose to stay with EC instead of going the way of so many of their popular writers is another issue). The new writers, who have been getting so much flack, will be dealing with potential readers like me, who’ve been burned a few too many times, deciding to not take a $7 risk on them.
Who is to blame? Well, I’m not in the know, so I’m not in a position to say. However, it seems to me from my perspective, that a lot of the books I’ve read which did not work for me are just going through the motions. Paranormal element? Check. Menage? Check. BDSM Lite? Check. Character/plot development and correct writing (it’s not just the commas – there are plenty of “oh for the love of God” usage mistakes) don’t seem to be part of the formula for too many books, unfortunately.
Somebody raised the issue of the “powers that be” at EC not being fans of romance in general. This seems quite plausible to me, but if this is the case, and if the style sheet actually does require writers to dumb things down to the extent of inhibiting clarity (by leaving commas out, for example), then it’s not just the genre they’re disrespectful of, it’s their readers.
charleneteglia
May 6
9:38 pm
Sarah had a good point, different authors are going to have different priorities, different levels of communication with their editor, different experiences.
I can say that my EC titles have been edited for STORY. My EC editor, Sue-Ellen Gower, has a wonderful gift for pointing out ways to strengthen the story. In my last EC release, she had me rewrite the plot climax (not a sex scene, killing the bad guy) because she thought I’d skimmed over it and pulled my punches. She was right. I rewrote, and the result was a better story.
My first EC title, Love and Rockets, was S rated. I was not asked to add more sex. I was asked to use more graphic language, which I did, and which made the sex scenes hotter. The changes asked for were good changes that improved the book. Most of the changes I made had to do with clarifying issues and bringing out character arc. So, the idea that EC editors don’t edit for content is not true, certainly not true across the board. I can’t speak for all editors, just the one I work with.
The comma thing, um, this is the first I’ve heard about it. My editor tends to put commas IN. There is a house style issue with semi-colons and I’ve had to either rewrite to take those out or change them to em dashes. It’s just a style issue which doesn’t make the story less readable or alter voice, so I don’t have a problem with it.
Books are going into print. I had a new print release from the Cerridwen imprint in Feb/March. I was notified in advance of the scheduled date.
The sales of subrights is not a new business practise in publishing. My first St. Martin’s title has had two subrights sales and I’m happy about it. My agent is happy about it. It’s a good thing.
Lynne Simpson
May 6
9:56 pm
I keep hearing about this style guide. Is it available to the public? I’m awfully curious about what’s in it.
Anonymous
May 7
12:49 am
I have to agree with buying less from EC. I would buy at least 3 to 5 books from EC each month or when ever they would put out the new ebooks.
I do have to say that your review of Carol Lynns book was right on target, and if this is the way that EC is going I will not be trying out any of their new authors.
Since the have started to put out twice weekly I have stucked to authors I know. Lora Leigh, Jory Stong, just to name a few have not put out any new ebooks with the exception of last 2 months) in a long time and their are two of many of the older writers there.
To get back to CL’s book and how bad I thought it was I did not even finish it because it did not make any kind of sense to me….
I would like to know if this is how it’s going to be at EC because right now I will go to other ebook publishers to spend my money on.
I know they will have a plot too, I do love the sex and some did seem to have lots of sex with strings of words to plot them together…
Jane
May 7
3:05 am
I just read a Harlequin Blaze that had 3 terrible spelling errors, like well spelled with one L instead of two.
I do think that there are other e-companies that are having issues. There is some rumors that RWA’s revisiting its publisher recognition is due to Triskelion’s treatment of their authors. Supposedly there is a tier A and a tier B set of authors and they get treated differently.
But, I have also heard of the lifetime rights issue and that is one that is on the author, I think. By that I mean that there are lots of epublishers these days and if you don’t like EC’s contract, go somewhere else. If you can’t sell anywhere else, then maybe you need to relook at your book.
Anonymous
May 7
9:29 am
I’m one of several authors who were hit with unnecessary litigation by EC so of course I’m posting anonymously.
It’s all about the money, and they don’t care about the authors. I’ll never forget the owner of EC (Tina aka Jaid Black) showing up at RT one year when all the authors’ royalties were late. She showed around a photo of her new Mercedes and crowed, “Look what you bought me!”
That company and its owners deserve to go down in flames.
Shiloh Walker
May 7
11:39 am
Just a comment about the lifetime contracts….
EC contracts ARE negotiable. I can’t get into details because details are confidential but other than a few select stories, I don’t sign lifetime contracts. The few select stories I do give lifetime rights for, I know in advance that they would request it and I still wrote the story for them.
The rest of my stories have a fairly straight forward publishing deal.
Anonymous
May 7
12:21 pm
The subject no one seems to address is editor burn-out at epresses
A friend of mine spent more than three weeks working on a manuscript (an orphaned ms that the last editor–who’d quit– had bought) and got a total of ten dollars for her work. And this is at one of the top epubs.
She’s been lucky enough to have two best-selling authors, and she still makes a pittance. Plus though the authors get responses from management quickly, she has to ask and reask questions before someone answers. This has been her experience at the three epublishers where she’s worked. She’s moving onto a NY publisher where she’ll at least get a trace of respect.
epubs pay most editors crap and push them to get the most books out fastest. That has to affect quality. The rotten pay and the lack of response must be another reason most editors don’t last long. How come no one talks about that?
Anonymous
May 7
12:23 pm
PS That last post really isn’t about me.
I don’t want you to think that it’s an anonymous crappy editor complaining about a “friend.” Why do I bother with this PS? because anyone can see I need an editor or at least a proofreader!
~~Anonymous friend of an anonymous editor.
Anonymous
May 7
12:50 pm
In response to the posts about editors:
As a publisher for an eBook house, I do inform interested editors that they may not get rich immediately from the royalties earned. Unfortunately, our budget is such that we cannot extend too much of a percentage to editors, and everything is spelled out in the contracts we send out. The editor makes the choice to sign and work for us — if they choose to disappear later on because they do not feel it’s worth their time, so be it. Consequently, this leaves me with the bulk of the work. It’s a good thing I’m a good editor, and I love what I do.
I hope one day we’ll make as much as EC so I can pay people what the work is worth. Until then, I need to build this ship. Anyone who helps will get theirs when it comes in.
Sarah McCarty
May 7
1:07 pm
“It’s all about the money”
Maybe I’m missing something but why would any company, publishing or not, NOT be about the money? Business is always about the money. Even when it’s non profit.
When it’s publishing, the hope is the alliance between the author and the publishing house will form a dynamic that increases sales thus revenue for both, but part of that dynamic is not the publsher looking out for the author. They might give the author more perks if the author starts bringing in more than average income, but they’re doing it to protect their revenue stream. The publsiher is not doing it out of the goodnss of their heart. They’re doing it because it’s financially good for the bottom line.
I’ll say it again, there’s nothing personal about this. It’s just business. Nowhere an author publishes will it ever be anything else, no matter how much lip service is paid to the words “We love our authors”. When it comes to a choice between the author and the bottom line, the house should and will do what’s best for the bottom line every time because it’s the powers that be’s responsibility to keep the business alive. Just as it’s the author’s repsonsibility to make decisions that keeps their business alive.
Anonymous
May 7
1:40 pm
Anonymous said…
I’ve heard people gripe about EC asking for “rights for life” and that their contract is “evil” but I’ve not seen it.
Maybe someone was thinking of Trisk? Cuz I know that’s how their contract is and they refused to negotiate a thing.
Actually it’s common knowledge that the newbie authors are being requested to sign lifetime contracts and that the “established” author contracts are now for 10 years rather than 7. BUT, I do believe the “established” author contracts are negotiable. Not sure about the newbies.
Anonymous
May 7
4:58 pm
I’m coming into this a bit late but I’m confused. Are people saying that an editor gets a percentage of whichever books they edit and bring into the company?
How does that work? How much are they paid then? And I thought e-contracts used to be for 4 years. Did they change it?
Also, I think the businesses are in it for the money is a little disheartening when it comes to EC b/c Jaid Black’s whole schtick is how she rose from welfare mom to millionaire. And I can’t remember where I read it, but she has talked about paying people a decent salary and all that b/c of her personal experience. So yes, businesses are in it for the money, but HER business was supposed to be different. So if the company she founded is not paying people well, or not treating authors well, that’s hypocritical isn’t it?
Anyway, just some thoughts. Like you Karen, I once bought almost weekly at EC and have several hundred books, but now it’s rare if I buy one a month. Tired of the BDSM/werewolf/vampire stuff not being written well or in a new way. Also, I think when I first started buying EC books in 2002, a lot of this stuff was new ground, now it’s same old same old with bad editing. Not that it’s just EC, the current book I’m reading from Samhain used mute instead of moot, reign instead of rein. ARGH! Drives me batty when the error is repeated so you know the editor is thinking that’s the way it’s supposed to be. Haven’t they heard of the dictionary? I’ve also been buying from New Concepts Publishing. The website is atrocious, the spelling and grammatical errors almost drive me crazy but it’s the only place I can get Kaitlyn O’Connor and Celeste Anwar books. I’d recommend Lion’s Woman and When Night Falls by O’Connor and Utter Domination by Anwar if you’re looking for something to start with.
Heh, well, that kinda ended on another tangent.
Sarah McCarty
May 7
8:21 pm
Hey Last Anon!
Another Kaitlyn O’Connor fan! I really enjoy her books. *Following you off on the tangent*
Anonymous
May 7
9:51 pm
Sarah,
This is the last Anon, I’ve got another reason to love you!
BTW, regarding being asked to add sex scenes to books…it’s not about quantity but quality. Your scenes are hot! And they contribute to furthering the plot. So an editor wouldn’t tell you to add more b/c you’ve got plenty on the emotional and erotic scale. Whereas there are plenty of authors who may have a lot of sex scenes, but it doesn’t do anything for me. So they think adding in more sex scenes will make it spicier. It doesn’t.
Kate Willoughby
May 7
10:27 pm
Actually it’s common knowledge that the newbie authors are being requested to sign lifetime contracts…
This is wrong.
1. I signed a contract (my first with EC) for lifetime rights for my Caveman story with my eyes wide open. I understood that they have packaged these stories to go together and do not want them split up later. If an author does not like that set-up, they should not submit something for the Caveman anthologies. In fact, I think that in their call for Caveman submissions, they state that clearly.
2. I am a newbie EC author and I was not asked to sign a lifetime contract. However, I did interpret one clause incorrectly. I thought it was asking for first right of refusual for every book from then on, but it was only asking for first rights for the NEXT project. Perhaps this is what people are thinking about.
3. And every business is in it for the money. Jaid’s rise from poverty and wish to pay her employees well is NOT contradictory to a wish to also make money. They go together! How can she pay her employees well if the company doesn’t multiply the moolah??? 😉
I wish people would stop expecting EC (or any other publisher) to be nurturing nirvana for writers. Like Sarah McCarty said, it’s a BUSINESS.
4. I’ve been asked to add a sex scene, but my editor was right in asking that it be added. In my determination to stay within the Quickie 15K word count AND still tell a good story (with a plot!) I hurried through and sacrificed where I thought I could get away with it. Turns out we’re making it its own novella and expanding to give the story the room (and sex) that it needs. 😀
4. Also, please give my EC books a try before stamping “substandard newbie author” on my forehead! LOL
Snowshoe
May 8
2:26 pm
Allow me to take this to a personal level.
My first book was pubbed by EC/CP less than a year ago. I’ve since had two more released. Another is coming out in July. I have five or six more lined up behind that one. They’re a mix of Cave and Cerridwen titles, ranging in length from full to Quickie and covering different subgenres–or subsubgenres or whatever the hell the taxonomy for fiction is nowadays. Needless to say, my creative investment in this company is now quite large.
So it’s damned scary to hear so many people say they’re giving up on EC because of the alleged low quality of its offerings. It’s even scarier to see the inference widely being drawn: that all EC books are crap, so none is worth reading. I’ve barely had a chance to make my mark, yet I feel as if I’m in danger of being one of the babies thrown out with the bath water. (Am I whining? Fuck, yeah!)
I’m not quite sure how to address this issue. Maybe I should say, Don’t equate “newbie” with “inexperienced hack” because when you ASSUME something, you make an ASS out of U and ME? (Well, damn, I guess there’s no “maybe” about it; I just typed the words.) But that’s likely not going to change anybody’s attitude–not when there’s so much free-floating skittishness about spending money on EC books.
Okay then, how about this? Rather than summarily writing off every new release, read the blurbs and excerpts; they should give you some idea of storylines as well as the editors’ and authors’ skill levels. Based on my own experience with these teasers, I know I can’t accurately gauge how good a book is, but I sure as hell can tell how bad it is. Oh yes I can. Maladroit writing jumps off the page as fast as stink rises from shit. So I repeat–as I shake my finger at you–READ ‘EM!
Beyond this, I’m not sure what to say. Trying to change people’s minds is almost as much an exercise in futility as persuading a Mormon to convert to Wicca. And I’ve never been much of an evangelist.
Yours oh-so-truly,
K.Z. Snow
December Quinn
May 8
3:07 pm
I’ve posted the entire first chapter of my upcoming EC release on my website, under books. The book is called “Blood Will Tell”, and I would post a direct link if my website wasn’t through Moonfruit and thus won’t let me. So it’s December Quinn, under “Books”, click on the BWT cover, and click the “Sample Chapter One!” Button.
I’m hoping having that there–if anyone is still reading this thread, or anyone checks it out when the cover comes up on the Coming Soon page, or whatever–will at least give people an idea how good the book is. If they think it sucks, they think it sucks, but at least I won’t feel like they bought it based on a false idea of how well-written it is or isn’t.
Patrice Michelle
May 8
3:52 pm
Anon said, BTW, regarding being asked to add sex scenes to books…it’s not about quantity but quality…And they contribute to furthering the plot.
I agree. Every scene in a book should advance the story. Love/sex scenes aren’t excluded from this. If the love scene doesn’t further the plot, or nothing is learned or gained about the hero or heroine, or their relationship doesn’t change because of that love scene, then the scene doesn’t need to be there.
Anonymous
May 8
10:56 pm
I just joined the EC team last year. I feel so grateful and happy to have been given this opportunity that it’s really shocking and just a tad depressing to read this.
I think EC is wonderful . . . and my experience with EC has been nothing but wonderful too. And NO, no one told me to add more sex to my book, I did that all by myself because I like to write about it. YES my characters have motives, NO it’s not just sex for sex’s sake.
In truth, I don’t think it’s fair to judge all EC newbies before even reading them. Newbies, like oldies, come in all sizes. Some may be marvelous . . . and some will probably get to shine like Lorah and Shiloh and so many amazing EC author’s have.
I think my EC editor has been wonderful and the EC staff has been extremely professional. As a first-time writer all I can hope for with my first book is that the readers might find something in it to like.
Red
Sarah McCarty
May 8
11:22 pm
Honestly, before this goes any further and becomes a new kerfluffle, I don’t think anyone is painting all newbies authors with a bad bruh. People tend to speak in generalities when they are summing up issues. To take it personally is a mistake.
As an example, I remember when Raelene used to get up at editor pneals at conferences and talk about what sold at EC. She used to say, “Historicals don’t sell well for us.” I’d then get all this sympathy and confusion from other authors and readers in regard to my PROMISE series. When I explained the situation to Raelene, the first words out of her mouth were, “In general, they don’t.” In subsequent talks, she amended her statement to “In general, historicals don’t do well” which was sweet, but I still remember my knee jerk thought the first time I heard it, “But they said the PROMISE series was doing exceptionally well!” *G*
So please, don’t panic when you read general postings. I, for one, am waiting on one newbie’s book that releases this week. I’ve been waiting ever since I read the excerpt on my list mom day last December.
Anonymous
May 9
2:06 am
Quite true, Sarah! I was just on my way to the shrink but I guess there’s no need just yet. LOL!
You’re right about newbies. I’m awaiting one from a new EC friend whom I admire and respect and I just KNOW it’s going to be awesome . . . It’s coming out this month, too. =)
Though I must say I can certainly relate to readers missing some BIG EC names. Hell, I do too! =) Hopefully you will all make(perhaps not as frequent) but still very valuable appearances!
Red
Anonymous
May 11
5:46 pm
I think another issue that needs to be addressed is the pay offered to editors. Look into it and see what’s really going on. Contracted editors are often offsite and paid a percentage of sales (usually 10%). Editing is time consuming and takes a great deal of attention. A true editor will not forsake correct punctuation, grammar or plotline. Neither should an author.
Most authors of erotica want to break in with Ellora. They have a big name in the industry. I’m not surprised by any of this at all though. It’s all about money. We’re all in the business to make a profit doing what we love. If the big bosses want more sex, no commas, and lifetime contracts, unfortunately, there are authors out there that will say: okay.
It all boils down to educating yourself and not doing anything you can’t live with. I hope Ellora stays around. I think e-books make sense as opposed to printed books. In fact, I hope some of these new e-publishers keep quality up and give Ellora a run for their money. That’s free-enterprise and competition which will win out with the best end product (in theory) in the end.
Anonymous
January 11
3:01 am
I can’t help but like your blog. No I don’t agree with your every critique, but think the whole “suicides and resignations” accusation was a bit over the top though.
I’m not a romance fan nor do I enjoy soap operas (my mom is the soap nut and Steele fan), but I’ve been a purveyor of erotica since I picked up the Sleeping Beauty trilogy at 14 and wrote my first Little Mermaid dirty story at 12 (I kid you not!). I’m pushing 30 and have honed my writing skills from junior high school and throughout college- all geared towards sex, sex and more sex.
Don’t think I don’t know the sting of rejection and persecution. I was lucky that the editor that I took my MS (that I have been working on for nearly 6 years) was a friend of my college professor’s so no money was exchanged and the online writer’s groups I’m with have had their bits to say from “crap dialog” to “this will never sell” .
I’ve done everything that the editing and publishing books in my library have instructed me to do- from researching my genre to researching the market. And everyone has been right, to get erotica off the ground is hellish, while the soppy romance-comedy that I was writing during the summer drew in raves from all my writing groups. And I hate it (I wrote it during a depressive rage I was in)!
Ellora’s Cave makes a profit, no doubt but it doesn’t have any real toehold in the market. They can’t afford the printing costs (I’m a journalist and know all about that from the paper I work for). Epublishing is dirt cheap and the royalties from them will be higher versus the print. And yes, the quality is severely lacking. I don’t know if it’s because the number of authors that have been picked up by genuine NY publishers, Tina’s (aka Jaid’s) theme demands, or the profit-driven-we’ll-take-anybody-as-long-as -long-as-they-sell attitude.
Because I’ll tell you this, I’m glad I was able to find a few friendly torrents with some EC titles on them that I considered purchasing and was thankful that I got them for free. I got into EC by accident when I spotted Lorie O’Clare’s Lunewulf series on Amazon and dug the preview. The reviews were- for the most part- encouraging and bought the print available ones. I was happy, but when I got a hold of her Cariboo Lunewulf: Taming Heather (Heather Graham- poor taste!) novel, Fallen Gods trilogy, Sex Slaves serial and Diana Hunter’s Secret Submission, I was disappointed!
You’re right EC’s BDSM does suck! I even have doubts about Madeleine Oh’s Power Exchange and the “X-treme” Darkest Hour. Not to mention some of the misleading covers with men in the submissive roles and the rules that only women are to be the subs and no femslash- even in threesomes! I’ve got no prob with hot-looking gays or bis rutting like rabbits but I’ve always had a girl-on-girl thing- especially with threesomes or moresomes!
I can see why so many authors want to break in with EC- look at their products as of late! Kudos to the authors that have been picked up by NY (and I hope you never look back), but if Jaid continues with her nepotism fetish Lorie O’Clare will be the only EC original left! And being to told to “sex it up” it’s done by everyone and whoever tells you otherwise is a liar. Also, talent is in the eye of the talented, but how does the same lit agency that reps Sunny (Mona Lisa series author) rep Lorie? Some kind of luck? No, just a bigger turn out for the investors.
I understand that the purpose of romance is for escapism, but hushing over tragedy, angst and anger makes for a boring book. I’ve seen to may of those make their way onto the Best Seller list. Take P.S. I Love You as a for instance. An Irish import that was universally panned, that is now a major motion picture. Sentimentalism sells better than Godiva evidently. At least Good In Bed and Bridget Jones kept their leading ladies fat and told their weight woes with humor- but it was truthful.
Keep fighting the good fight!
P.S. Jaid, I thought that whole welfare mom to millionaire was J.K. Rowling. I must have been mistaken. And don’t you think marrying a convicted murderer (of a former girlfriend) serving a life sentence sends a negative message to your 2 daughters?
Karen Knows Best
January 28
7:00 am
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