Girls, Will Be Girls…
Wednesday, July 11, 2007Posted in: Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez, catfight, Linda Nieves Powell
Apparently, an oversensitive playwright is trashing author, Alisa Valdes Rodriguez.
Valdes-Rodriguez writes on her blog:
“So, tonight I came across a quote from playwright Linda Nieves Powell, author of two plays that I have not seen but which I have wanted to see because they get great reviews and look interesting.
I’m not sure the quote was aimed at me, but I have a sinking suspicion it was. Why do I think this? First, because shortly after THE DIRTY GIRLS SOCIAL CLUB was published, I got an email from Linda hinting that she thought I had stolen the idea for the book from her play, which I had never seen or heard of. Second, because I’ve heard this sort of thing before, variation on a theme as it were, and I know exactly where it comes from.”
This is the quote by Linda Nieves Powell that bugged Valdes-Rodriguez:
“I don’t understand why a Latina writer…who writes Latina characters would be offended when she is labeled a Latina writer. I am proud to be called a Latina writer…you know why? Because when you’re good…none of that really matters, does it?”
Anyway, Powell reacted by telling VR to remove her name from VR’s blog, or else she’d sue her.
“Regarding your La Queen Sucia blog: remove my picture and any references about me immediately or my attorney will do that for you.”
Oooh er missus. Remind you of anyone? *g*
In return, VR gave her some great pearls of wisdom, obviously learnt from her years as a pubbed author:
“Let me give you some advice. As you enter the fray as a published novelist next spring, and an increasingly visible person, you should work on thickening your skin.
There are lots of people who will say things about you that you don’t like. They do it to me every single day. There is even a blogger who pretends to be me, and posts hateful “parodies” of every blog post I’ve ever done. I have stalkers who want to kill me. Tons of people who hate me.
For a time, I reacted exactly as you have here. Then I realized, after a couple of fruitless lawsuits, that there was nothing I could do. I will post your request to have me remove you from the blog. I will also ask that you carefully read the wording of my original post, in which I said I am not sure you meant me. That covers me, legally. I’m not sure you meant me, but I’m PRETTY sure you meant me. —-
Prepare for much worse. Not from me. I like you. I like your work. I will read your novel, and if I like it I will blog about that. When I say prepare for worse, I mean to tell you what lies down this path. Neo-nazis. Envious women who can’t write. All manner of people who hate women or Latinos.
Get tough, Linda. If you don’t, you’ll make yourself sick.”
Great response huh?
I particularly liked this excerpt from VR’s post:
You know that old adage, “be careful what you wish for”? It’s absolutely true for writers. You want to be published? You want people to know your work, to know who you are? So many of us wish for this because we are certain everyone will like us. Everyone won’t.
Damn, she’s good.
Via GalleyCat
azteclady
July 11
10:55 pm
Incautiously opening a HUGE can o’ worms… what do you think of this quote?
“anyone in book publishing will tell you I am a fool for wanting to be considered mainstream rather than ‘Latina only’—because it would actually open me up to more competition and, possibly, LOWER book sales.”
Sarah McCarty
July 12
12:11 am
It could be accurate. Niche marketing can be profitable. It’s not a racist thing, but a more intense marketing to one specific group resulting in more sales per product.
It’s the reason I sold my Promise series to an epublisher initially rather than proposing to New York. Being as it was WH and that was an out of favor genre in the bigger world of NY , I figured it would do better if I created a niche market for it in a small press since there was a readership for the genre. I then planned my marketing accordingly. It was a gamble, but I think it paid off.
shiloh walker
July 12
3:07 am
So many of us wish for this because we are certain everyone will like us. Everyone won’t.
sounds to me like she’s learned the lesson the way a lot of us do… the hard way.
azteclady
July 12
8:44 pm
Well, this is the thing (because I was rather unclear with my previous comment)
The snippet I quoted above struck me mostly because just a few days ago, Monica Jackson stated yet again, at the Smart Bitches (don’t know how to link, sorry; but check the comments to the post “A Call to Arms, A Defense of Romance”), that there’s discrimination only of, and against, blacks in publishing. Angela, from BlackRomanceReader, and Seressia Glass agree with this sentiment.
Yet if we we take Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez at her word (not just in the posts linked by Karen, but the blog itself),it would seem that Monica is mistaken there, and that in fact discrimination in publishing affects all minorities.
Which seems pretty obvious to me, by the way.
(Not that I know jack, since I’m only a reader)
Angela
July 13
12:50 am
It could be accurate. Niche marketing can be profitable. It’s not a racist thing, but a more intense marketing to one specific group resulting in more sales per product.
That is true, but what is the boundary between niche marketing and just tossing every author in one corner based on their skin color? If an author is writing ROMANCE, why can’t she be treated equally? People say segregation shouldn’t exist and then support niche marketing. I know that if I wanted to become a published author I don’t want my books to be seen as “only for black people” because of what I or my characters look like. How is that fair?
And I know you know about Millenia Black and how she is suing Penguin for being told to write black characters because she is black, right?
Yet if we we take Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez at her word (not just in the posts linked by Karen, but the blog itself),it would seem that Monica is mistaken there, and that in fact discrimination in publishing affects all minorities.
Discrimination does affect all types of minorities, but Valdes-Rodriguez was read by a wide variety of readers, as was The Joy Luck Club and other books by Amy Tan. The Latino and Asian experience in America does not have the negative connotations everyone assumes African-American experience has. Y
ou can see it in comments when everyone thinks black people were only slaves everywhere prior to 1865, that black people can’t do genealogy, that there are no wealthy black families with a long history of wealth, that black people never held major roles in the Government, etc,etc.
Being Latino or Asian in America on the whole has a more positive “aura” about it–especially if they’ve “assimilated” enough into (white) American culture but have that hint of Latino/Asian “flavor”. A black person, regardless of their socio-economic level will be viewed as lower-class until they open their mouths.
The few black authors of chick-lit or women’s fiction don’t get that type of readership because their niche marketing says that their books only appeal to and are for black people because they authors and/or their characters are black.
I’m digressing a bit, but the point behind my stance on this subject is rarely recognized. There was an article in Elle Magazine a few years back that featured a successful black anchorwoman and writer who says that when she moved into her penthouse in NY, the doorman was convinced she was a maid because certainly a black person could never afford to live there. She also recounted how her black friends–wealthy, with Ivy League educations and prestigious jobs are forced to dress up just to take out the trash because they can’t dress down like their white neighbors because people automatically assume that all blacks are lower-class.
That is the argument behind my stance: black-authored books are held at a lower standard than books authored by Latinos or Asians. Karen got people to read that horrendous Carol Lynn book, but many people breeze by AA authored romance novels because of the mainstream preconceived notions of black equals subpar quality–whether they are aware of them or not. The “black tax” isn’t a myth.
Monica
July 13
1:29 am
it would seem that Monica is mistaken there, and that in fact discrimination in publishing affects all minorities.
There’s discrimination and there’s discrimination. Discrimination is a facet of the minority experience, period, BUT there is no Hispanic literary section where all fiction by any Hispanic authors is thrown.
Hispanic authors in romance are far more accepted than black authors. They are not niched but their books marketed and read by all romance readers. Hell, even Sybil reviews ’em! Asians too, I notice.
Why the eagerness to escape reality?
azteclady
July 13
2:01 am
Angela, I know about Millenia Black, yes–I’ve commented here, and at her blog about her situation with Penguin. I still see the publishing world from the outside–I’m a reader, not a writer. Hence, I know jack. I have my opinions and only my personal experiences to base them on. And based on those experiences I can tell you that Latino/as are subject to stereotyping and discrimination as much as Ivy League educated blacks.
Monica, your reality and mine do not seem to connect. I’ve experienced discrimination, and frankly, I get a bit tired of being told I haven’t. That, since I’m not black, I don’t–can’t, in fact–know what you are talking about.
Other than that, I have been made painfully aware of the shelving issues and the segregation many black writers are subjected too. Reading A V-R’s blog, though, I realize that the shelving issue is not limited to black romance writers–and that is a reality too.
Again, not being a writer, I know that I’m not expressing myself clearly, but I feel a certain exclussionism (not a word, I’m sure), from some black writers and readers. “WE and only WE–they seem to say–know what suffering is. WE and only WE know what discrimination is.”
If that’s the case, pardon me for begging to disagree. After all, you haven’t been in my shoes either, see?
Angela
July 13
2:27 am
Again, not being a writer, I know that I’m not expressing myself clearly, but I feel a certain exclussionism (not a word, I’m sure), from some black writers and readers. “WE and only WE–they seem to say–know what suffering is. WE and only WE know what discrimination is.”
If that’s the case, pardon me for begging to disagree. After all, you haven’t been in my shoes either, see?
I’m sorry I’ve come across as exclusionistic(if that is even a word) because I never meant it to mean no one but black people experience segregation, prejudice and racism. But from what I see in the mainstream media, being Asian or Latino doesn’t inhibit people the way being black does. Are there stereotypes and exclusion that Asians and Latinos experience? Hell yeah, because I’ve seen it, but from just the general romance genre, it is only black authors of romance who are being segregated and viewed with suspicion about the quality.
From what I hear, many of them are fine with the niche because it’s a hell of a lot easier to stick with the status quo then to venture out into the unknown and possibly fail (just like those authors who trend-hop or those who have recognizable names but stick to mediocrity instead of using their status to forge new paths).
Why should all authors past, present and future be penalized because a larger percentage like the comfort factor? Ann Christopher writes a damn good contemporary romance: why can’t she be shelved–or even published–with the regular H/S lines? What about Sharon Cullars? Her editor had to fight to get her Bravas out of the AA Fiction shelf and onto the regular romance shelf with her fellow non-black Brava authors.
It’s a double-edged sword, I know, but I have hopes that some people will be brave enough to break out of the vicious cycle.
Monica
July 13
4:38 am
Do y’all notice in the eagerness to scapegoat me for speaking out, few even pay attention to what I write?
Let me repeat it.
Discrimination is a facet of the minority experience, period, BUT there is no Hispanic literary section where all fiction by any Hispanic authors is thrown.
Where did I say that Hispanics don’t suffer discrimination? So why lie in the eagerness to denigrate me? It’s in black and white.
Discrimination is not a tit for tat thing, different types of folks are perceived and treated differently. Every minority has their own issues. Yes, as far as romance, black issues are more severe. As far as the vegetable growing sector in the U.S., I’d say Hispanic issues are more severe.
I suppose you won’t be able to comprehend me saying that either. Because I’m black, right?
Alisa Valdez-Rodrigues said on her former blog that she feels Oprah discriminates against her because she’s Hispanic.
Oprah does seem to warm to depressing angst-filled writing of white men (preferably dead ones) pretty well.
But dissed by Oprah or not, AVR still gets her chick lit catalogued, marketed and shelved with the white chicks.
That the whole of the point and I don’t see the wrong or right of it. It just is.
Robin
July 13
4:57 am
Discrimination is a facet of the minority experience, period, BUT there is no Hispanic literary section where all fiction by any Hispanic authors is thrown.
But that’s exactly what Valdes-Rodriguez refers to in her introduction to Richard Rodriguez, posted on her blog:
http://alisavaldesrodriguez.blogspot.com/2007/07/introducing-richard-rodriguez-in-taos.html
Between that piece and the letter regarding her resignation from the LA Times posted above by anonymous, I think Valdes-Rodriguez makes precisely the same argument about Latinos/as that you and Angela do about African Americans. And while I am uncomfortable with debates over who is the most victimized, I do wonder — outside of personal opinion and experience — how one decides that one position (Valdes-Rodriguez or yours) is more or less valid than the other.
Angela
July 13
5:36 am
And while I am uncomfortable with debates over who is the most victimized, I do wonder — outside of personal opinion and experience — how one decides that one position (Valdes-Rodriguez or yours) is more or less valid than the other.
Ugh…saying who has it worse is not what anyone is intending to say. I hate to say this, but many a discussion has been derailed when white people unwittingly start insinuating that one minority group is claiming their experience is more valid than another minority group and sparking a comparison and contrast argument. Let’s leave it at the fact that ALL minorities–whether by ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, religion, etc have it bad in a variety of situations. Neither case is ever right or worse than anothers.
But in terms of the PUBLISHING industry(you know, the original topic!), Latino and Asian authors are given a “pass” into the mainstream reading audience that African-American authors are not.
Robin
July 13
6:10 am
But in terms of the PUBLISHING industry(you know, the original topic!), Latino and Asian authors are given a “pass” into the mainstream reading audience that African-American authors are not.
I didn’t get a moment’s impression that Valdes-Rodriguez would buy that argument, Angela; in fact, she makes the same point as Monica about segregated shelving in her Richard Rodriguez introduction, referring to the fact that he’s shelved in “Latino Studies.” And his example is particularly interesting because of all the Latino writers, he has been accused of mainstreaming with a vengeance, with allegations of self-whitewashing dogging him through most of his career. Politically conservative and generally contrary, Rodriguez would be the one Latino author you’d expect NOT to be shelved in Latino Studies. And in Valdes-Rodriguez’s example, she doesn’t find him double shelved, either.
Yes, there are other Latino authors who are shelved (in some stores) in general fiction. But as I said on SB’s, I generally find Octavia Butler and Beverly Jenkins shelved in SciFi and Romance, Toni Morrison in literature or general fiction. I’m sure we can all come up with examples of authors marginalized and mainstreamed on the shelves.
If you really want to limit the discussion to publishing, then IMO the debate narrows or broadens depending on what one believes drives those decisions. For example, if it’s money (i.e. the profitability of niche marketing) that’s at issue, the debate narrows. But if it’s race and racial discrimination — which it seems to be based on the discussion that continues to emerge around Romance — then clearly the discussion broadens. And let’s face it: the discussion as it occurs over and over again within this online community is contextualized in BROAD terms (e.g. patterns of discrimination, institutionalized racism, white racism, etc.). Reading Valdes-Rodriguez’s reasons for resigning from the LA Times was like reading a number of the arguments made by those arguing that the position of African Americans is unique — although she’s referring to Latinos/as. That’s the main point I was trying to make above.
Robin
July 13
6:56 am
but many a discussion has been derailed when white people unwittingly start insinuating that one minority group is claiming their experience is more valid than another minority group and sparking a comparison and contrast argument.
Angela, if you’re saying that these discussions sometimes devolve into a competition of who’s been most victimized, then I agree with you that I don’t want that to happen (but disagree vehemently that it’s only us white people who fall into this pattern). All I’m trying to say is that because there seems to be so much mirroring between what you and Monica and Valdes-Rodriguez are saying, I’m not convinced there’s a “right” side to take regarding who has it worst in publishing, and I’m not interested in deciding on one. All of you make compelling arguments, and really, I think you’re all on the same page in terms of seeing the construction of race as antithetical to the kind of inclusion that should be represented in our literary culture (let alone our larger society). And I wholly agree with that, no matter who’s saying it.
Angela
July 13
7:31 am
Let me retract making a general statement about “white people”–I was oversensitive based on the roadblocks a few knuckleheads regularly toss into the discussions on race and ethnicity I’ve been involved in online. I apologize Robin and anyone else who was offended.
azteclady
July 13
12:06 pm
Just in case I was included in the original “white people” remark… I’m not “white” myself.
Also, I’m not trying to say which group is more marginalized or discriminated against, or whatever. I’m disputing Monica’s oft stated opinion that it’s only black writers who are. As Robin said, reading further in A V-R’s blog opened my eyes on that front.
Monica, I don’t believe I lied nor that I am in any way attempting to denigrate you. I am disagreeing with you, period.
shiloh walker
July 13
1:29 pm
I just had to drop my two cents about this comment
Oprah does seem to warm to depressing angst-filled writing of white men (preferably dead ones) pretty well.
I think Oprah just gets into the depression and angst… period… I think she had the book the Lovely Bones on her reading list and a friend talked me into it. No dead white men, just a murdered little girl and a killer who doesn’t exactly get what he deserves and this kind of book is her norm.
I just don’t understand why some people read ‘literature’. ugh. Has she ever recommended a title that left you feeling warm fuzzies after you finished?
sallahdog
July 13
3:12 pm
Ann Christopher writes a damn good contemporary romance: why can’t she be shelved–or even published–with the regular H/S lines? What about Sharon Cullars? Her editor had to fight to get her Bravas out of the AA Fiction shelf and onto the regular romance shelf with her fellow non-black Brava authors.
as an aside, I was in my local Borders last week and saw Sharon Cullars books over in the romance section. Even though I had already bought them, I bought them again (it was ok, my sis in law is keeping the others which she hadnt given back yet anyway,lol) and complimented the clerk… Great books, should never be hidden in the pathetically sized AA section of our local Borders.
I read for pleasure and escapism. Rarely do I read for depression so I almost never read an Oprah pick… There is some uplifting literature out there, but she sure doesnt reccomend it..
Anonymous
July 13
4:18 pm
Check out what Sofia Quintero said about this a while ago. She wrote Divas Don’t Yield and Black Artemis series. She comes at this topic from a different angle.
In the interview in the back of Divas Don’t Yield, Quintero says: “I’m not Latina today, black tomorrow, and a writer on Friday. I am Latina, black, a writer every single day. If when I say I’m a Latina writer someone thinks then her books won’t interest me because I’m not Latina the issue is not my identification but that person’s racism. There’s a fundamental difference between wanting to appeal to as many audiences as possible and downplaying aspects of one’s identity to cater to narrow-minded thinking.”
She was also interviewed by Rachel Kramer Bussel.
http://gothamist.com/2006/04/17/sofia_quintero_1.php
BTW, Quintero writes both “chica lit” and urban fiction so imagine what SHE goes through LOL! Anyway she talks about the Latina label, the street lit effect on African Americans in publishing and racism in the entertainment industry overall. . One interesting thing she says:
“I’m not a fan of street lit, but my biggest problem lies not with the genre itself or its authors. It’s with the publishing industry that’s saturating the market with street lit at the expense of other types of Black literature, as if the popularity of one makes the other irrelevant. It’s with an industry that tells literary authors who have earned critical acclaim and a loyal following, “I loved your last historical romance, but do you have a story about a stripper?” You best believe that if that’s going on, racism is a factor whether folks want to admit it or not.” This is coming from someone who does NOT write literary fiction so I thought that was refreshing.
Anyway I think it’s cool that this is being debated publicly. We shouldn’t have to agree on everything to be a community. What I DON’T like though is how ugly and personal it’s getting between Linda and Alisa. An intellectual debate shouldn’t end up into a public catfight although I have to admit that I did laugh when I read the title Karen gave this blog!
Robin
July 13
5:11 pm
Let me retract making a general statement about “white people”–I was oversensitive based on the roadblocks a few knuckleheads regularly toss into the discussions on race and ethnicity I’ve been involved in online.
I understand, Angela, which is why I took a few minutes to sort through what I thought you meant from how your words came across to me on a surface level. I think there’s a bit of a divide that forms in these discussions between folks who don’t feel that others acknowledge that race is an issue, and folks who feel that race is being used too narrowly or exclusively. In both instances, the perception is that race is being used against them, but in a different way. We see race as so divisive that we’ll divide ourselves up right on schedule almost as soon as it makes its appearance in any of these discussions.
I just don’t understand why some people read ‘literature’. ugh. Has she ever recommended a title that left you feeling warm fuzzies after you finished?
I don’t follow Oprah’s book club, but as a lifelong reader of ‘literature,’ I can say that I read it for the same reasons I read Romance: because it satisfies me on multiple levels. Every area of fiction can be reduced down to some unflattering generalization that makes it seem easily dismissed (don’t we see this all too often with Romance). Not all literature and literary fiction is depressing or dark or obsessed with death. But even for those lit books that end more darkly than Romance, I can often find my own happy ending in reading them because I close the book feeling full and satisfied. Sometimes I’m hungry for J.M. Coetzee and sometimes I’m hungry for Jo Goodman. And seriously, I’ve read some Romance that is far darker and more violent than a lot of lit fic I’ve read.
Anyway she talks about the Latina label, the street lit effect on African Americans in publishing and racism in the entertainment industry overall. .
Thank you so much for posting that interview, anon; I especially liked the way she talked about her desire to write “smart commercial fiction” so that a broad spectrum of readers could enjoy it. Her comments also made me think about the dominance of hip hop in the music industry, and the exploitation of black urban stereotypes (and how racial stereotypes in general are being codified and commodified in ways that IMO have powerful social implications). Although she doesn’t say it outright, I think Quintero is trying to lay the foundation for a new sort of literacy (including cultural literacy), rooted in a strong cultural consciousness but transformative of racial stereotypes. At least I hope so, because IMO we ALL need that, LOL.
Seressia
July 13
8:09 pm
azteclady,
I’m not really sure what you’re trying to say or what I should infer from your posts.
1. Should I be silent about the shelving of black romances in some stores because some another ethnic group gets shelved separate as well in some stores? As if, “hey it happens to them too” somehow makes it less heinous?
2. Should I be silent because some people in some stores have found some books by some higher-profile black genre writers in their respective genre sections? As in, “Hey Octavia Butler made it out, so shut up and be happy”?
3. Should I be silent because some authors like being shelved by race while I (and some other outspoken ladies) would prefer being shelved by genre? “Well it’s only you lot that are complaining,” as if that makes it all right?
Whether it’s ONLY blacks or Blacks and Latins doesn’t change the fact that I think it’s WRONG. Especially when plenty of white authors have written Hispanic heroes and their books are in the regualr romance section. Some are writing interracials featuring black people, and their books are being shelved in the regular romance section. Mine aren’t.
(there was a lot more I was going to write, but I hit DELETE. Y’all should be happy about that.)
I should tell you that I do think having an AA studies section, or even a Latina Studies section is great, for books that focus on ethnic studies. Genre books should be shelved by genre, regardless of who writes them. Or maybe I should be silent about that too.
azteclady
July 13
9:56 pm
Seressia,
To the three questions you ask me, the answer is unequivocally NO.
It is wrong. Be vocal. Fight for change.
What I am saying is that it’s not only black writers who suffer from discrimination, in shelving and marketing and other ways in publishing, contrary to what Monica Jackson states and other commenters here and elsewhere have implied.
What I am saying is that I have gotten tired of being tarred and feathered as a bigot and a racist for disagreeing with an outspoken black romance writer whose books are segregated through shelving.
Robin puts this so much clearly (and succinctly) that I ever could: “I think there’s a bit of a divide that forms in these discussions between folks who don’t feel that others acknowledge that race is an issue, and folks who feel that race is being used too narrowly or exclusively.”
As far as the AA studies, or Latin studies or Jewish or Amish or whatever sections in libraries and bookstores: I too believe that it’s a good thing for books focused on ethnicity, sociology, history, or the like–definitely not for fiction, literary or genre.
I hope that makes my position a bit more clear.
Robin
July 13
10:00 pm
Genre books should be shelved by genre, regardless of who writes them. Or maybe I should be silent about that too.
I can’t speak for azteclady, but I truly don’t think she’s suggesting that anyone should be silent or that genre books should be marginalized and shelved separately based on race. What I know I reacted to in some of Angela’s comments, and what perhaps azteclady responded to in Monica’s comments (pure speculation here), is the insistence that AA authors are in a *uniquely* bad position relative to race-based treatment. And further that acceptance of that assertion is somehow necessary for an adequate understanding of the problem AA Romance authors face.
It’s that second bit — which is rarely expressed directly but IMO implied — that always frustrates me, because it seems counterproductive to addressing the incredible importance of the problem of race-based segregated shelving by conditioning the discussion on something that IMO is unnecessary to addressing the actual problem of segregated treatment. IMO I don’t need to believe that AA authors are uniquely, specially, primarily, or more destructively discriminated against to KNOW that discrimination is WRONG. It doesn’t make me any more or less committed to do what I can to help change the situation. Part of that — for me, at least — is to try to find areas of common ground and common experience — in this case, to say, hey, there’s someone else who has had the same experience, isn’t that enough to convince anyone that this is an issue of widespread and urgent importance? While I don’t want to in ANY way invalidate the experiences of AA authors who feel they have been discriminated against on the basis of race, I actually think that insisting on acceptance of the proposition that they have been the MOST discriminated against creates an obstacle to changing the situation, for you, for other AA authors, for all authors of color, for women authors, gay authors, for readers, etc.
azteclady
July 13
10:13 pm
Robing, please do speak for me.
Seressia, what she said, to the last comma.
Monica
July 13
11:50 pm
I’m really sick of you putting words in my mouth. Point out, anywhere, that I said other minorities don’t suffer discrimination and ONLY blacks do.
Or save your time, because you can’t.
Seressia, I see nobody bothered to respond to your assertation that all their points added up to one thing: Blacks should shut up about our issues.
The fact is that most have no problem at all talking about the publishing issues of e-book authors, erotic romance, homosexuals, Asians, Hispanic and native Americans.
You have the problem discussing blacks and black issues alone.
YOU have the problem. I can talk about the issues of Hispanic and Asians within romance. They have some, sure.
Or since I’m a black author I can talk about how romance doesn’t accept me or my sisters as they do other romance authors. That is the topic I choose to discuss. My choice.
You don’t have the right to tell me to shut up and be silent so you don’t have to think about blacks.
Talk about the difficulties Hispanics have within romance. Interview authors such as Dee Tenorio, Marjorie Low and Tess Garritsen about how they are discriminated against in the romance genre. That’s well and good.
But you have no right to shut me up about my issues because I’m black.
Monica
July 13
11:54 pm
Sorry, I meant Marjorie Liu, I was thinking about her and the other oppressed Asian romance writer, Gennita Low.
Where is that section where they sometimes throw all the Hispanic and Asian romance separated out by race so I can find it?
Seressia
July 14
1:24 am
I do want to say that I was curious about this attribution to me:
The snippet I quoted above struck me mostly because just a few days ago, Monica Jackson stated yet again, at the Smart Bitches (don’t know how to link, sorry; but check the comments to the post “A Call to Arms, A Defense of Romance”), that there’s discrimination only of, and against, blacks in publishing. Angela, from BlackRomanceReader, and Seressia Glass agree with this sentiment.
So, just to be bitchy (hey, it’s been that kind of week in Romancelandia) I just went back to the SBTB thread and re-read my comments. Nowhere did I type, “discrimination only happens to black romance writers.”
One of my comments said romance need to fix the problems inside before taking on battles outside the genre. Another comment responded to Robin that Avon’s AA romances will probably be shelved in the AA section, wuite like St. Martin’s non-line AA romances are. I said Samhain is all racked at the end of romance, and asked Robin about those review sites who’ve reviewed four AA romances in the past year. My last post on that thread thanked Robin for that list, and said if the MBAs decided we should be separate, why not separate all the perceived genres.
That was the extent of my posts on the subject. Not one of them said discrimination ONLY happens to AA romance authors.
To end, I can only speak accurately about my experiences, which is what I have done. And that is my truth.
Robin
July 14
1:43 am
Seressia, I don’t ever remember you making that comment — or implying it even — either. Azteclady is mistaken about that, IMO. I’ve really enjoyed hearing your views and reading your response to Karen’s survey.
Monica, who’s telling you to shut up? Disagreement is not censorship.
I have no problem with you talking about AA Romance or the discrimination against AA authors. What I disagree with are statements like these:
“Most people who are not black (and I say most, not all, some Mexican immigrants may have a decent idea), have no idea what racism feels like.” (from Sarah Frantz’s May 4th blog post)
“You really should take my word for it. In this country, being black is special.” (same source as above)
“I call BS to the statement that other ethnicities are separated the same way blacks are. ” (from the July 5th Smart Bitches blog post)
It’s not the focus on AA Romance I object to, or even the *exclusive* focus on AA Romance — as you said, that’s your experience. What I object to is the idea I get from your comments (intended or not) that if I don’t agree that AA Romance authors got it worse than other minorities, then I can’t participate fairly in the discussion — that I’m showing “white racism.”
I don’t hesitate to respond in these discussions because I’m afraid of being called a racist — I know who I am and what I’ve done in my life. I hesitate because I know that every time I post I risk being run roughshod over and harangued and accused of things I didn’t say or mean because I’ve inadvertently pushed some button in you or because you’ve interpreted my comments in a way that I never intended. And yeah, the rage is uncomfortable to deal with, not because it’s tied to race or to AA issues, but because often it seems to transcend all of that and become a force of its own, disconnected from the topic under discussion. Sometimes I feel that even if I said I agreed with every single one of your statements that in the next breath you’d turn around and smite me for THAT.
And the ironic thing is, Monica, that if I didn’t respect you at all and think that much of what you have to say is really important, I wouldn’t subject myself to any of it — I’d let you rail on even though I think you’re driving people away from publicly supporting and working for the very thing you say you want for AA Romance authors.
You brought up the posts by Valdes-Rodriguez. She points to the same kind of shelving problem you do. I would think that would bring a sense of validation for you.
You say that no one responded to Seressia’s comment about shutting up, but azteclady’s second sentence in response to Seressia is this:
“It is wrong. Be vocal. Fight for change.”
I’ve already said more than I intended to about this, but with a little more than a week to go to the Bar exam, I’m so spent I don’t have the energy to restrain myself. Rock on, everyone.
Monica
July 14
2:54 am
Okay, Robin. Keep in mind we’re talking about women’s fiction and romance.
So within women’s fiction and romance how are other minorities, as a whole, treated as badly and marginalized the same way as blacks are? Don’t hold back, I’m listening.
Why is stating fact as far as black authors are treated in the genre driving people away from publicly supporting and working for the very thing you say you want for AA Romance authors.
Do you really think the people who are so upset about hearing about how blacks are treated (some of them are reminded how THEY exclude and treat blacks worse than they treat other romance authors) really give the slightest damn about whether we achieve some parity and visibility within the genre?
If they did, if you did, you wouldn’t mind the discussion so much.
Yet, you’re always first to bring up the other minorities are more valid so shut the eff up about blacks then and lets talk about something that makes me more comfortable speech.
It would be quite apropos if we were talking about farm workers or immigration issues. But we’re talking about romance and women’s fiction.
And romance and women’s fiction marginalizes dozens of black romance authors en masse, not Hispanic, Asian or any other minority.
I have and can talk about how gay people, erotic romance and e-books are marginalized in the genre. If other ethnicities were treated the same, I’d bring it up. But they aren’t.
IF you can’t accept that fact, I’m a little sorry for you. I think those who get so upset at black issues being brought up need to look to themselves why they feel that way. It’s not external. Blacks have the right to talk about our issues as much as anybody else. If you’re upset by that fact, it’s from within yourself, not me for bringing it up.
Racism within romance affects me personally. I should bring it up. If female SFF writers were ever marginalized to their own category separate from SFF, they should bring it up. If I got upset because say, Marion Zimmer Bradley was pissed about sexist segregation in that instance, and I was mad at her for bringing it up, I’d be the one with the problem with women.
I have mo optimism that you will comprehend what I’m saying, but I tried.
Damn, I’m tired.
Robin
July 14
5:17 am
So within women’s fiction and romance how are other minorities, as a whole, treated as badly and marginalized the same way as blacks are? Don’t hold back, I’m listening.
From Valdes-Rodriguez:
For instance, I find it offensive if a reporter is doing a roundup of chick lit in a mainstream publication, and they have me and Jennifer Weiner in there, and I’m called a Latina writer and Jen is just a writer. Ah, but you write about Latinas, Alisa, right? Yes. But Jennifer writes about a variety of people, usually American Jews. She writes about African Americans, and Latinas. I write about a variety of people too, including Jews and African Americans, and half-Chinese Cubans – not to mention born-again Christian Afro-Colombian lesbians and Irish-American firefighters. Still, Jen does not get marginalized through labeling. I do. . . .
I frequently get emails from readers who say things like, “I’m not a Latina, but I liked your work.” These emails make me unspeakably sad. I realize the writers of the letters are trying to be kind. They think they’re complimenting me. But I wonder: Who is writing to Jennifer Weiner, saying, “I’m not Jewish, but I like your work.”? Who is writing to J.K. Rowling saying, “I’m not a middle-aged British woman, but I like your work.”? It would seem absurd to do so. Why isn’t it absurd to say something like that to me? Because the mainstream media perpetuates a mythology of difference that maintains a caste system no one in the US seems to acknowledge. . . .
The part that infuriates me is the part that says one group of American people (non-Hispanic “white” people) gets to write for everyone; another group of American people is assumed not to be of interest to everyone because they are (fill in the blank with your favorite marginalized minority/sexual orientation group here). Joyce Carol Oates summarized a similar sentiment in the title of her book (WOMAN) WRITER. She is a woman, yes. She is a writer, yes. But when she is called a Woman Writer by a male-dominated media industry, it is with only one intention: To marginalize her, to put her in parenthesis. Anyone who has READ Joyce Carol Oates knows that she deserves to be a Writer, pure and simple, no qualifier needed. I suppose I’m arrogant enough to believe likewise of myself.
Now, as to the issues of separate shelving and dictation of characters, I know that your position is that separate shelving is racially discriminatory. But from what I understand, much of that shelving has to do with the requests of AA readers, who, in turn, are buying books from AA imprints. I remember an interview with Caridad Pinero in which she talked about how AA Romance authors have a much larger dedicated AA audience than, say Latina Romance authors have of a Latina readership. So AA authors have a built in readership, while Latina authors don’t. So who is more disadvantaged in this situation: authors of color who are not AA who compete with all other authors for a marketshare or AA authors who have dedicated imprints? Which is less racially marginalizing: being forced to “pass” (I don’t believe it’s a choice, Monica, but a practical imperative) or to “write black”? Which is more disadvantaged: to try to reach a broad Romance reading audience by writing either non-ethnic or vastly whitewashed characters (or bad racial stereotypes) or having Avon recruiting writers of AA Romance and no other ethnically-based genre Romance? You don’t think there aren’t Latina or Asian writers who feel excluded because Avon — the biggest publisher of Romance — isn’t recruiting them? Romance had one Latina imprint which died, and authors like Julie Leto — who tried to write a more ethnically vivid heroine and hero — ended up losing their contracts.
Is it discriminatory to be forced to write AA characters? YES. Is it discriminatory to be forced to “pass”? YES. Which is worse? I know the answer you give, but I can see how things look very similar (in reverse) from another angle. AA imprints spell marginalization in the genre to you, but they also offer dedicated spaces to be published by large NY houses that non-AA women of color don’t have access to, because they’re busy plastering whiteface onto their ethnic characters and trying to sell them in the same market as white authors, some of whom write the most offensive racial stereotypes I’ve ever seen, but whose work is snapped up like crazy (i.e. Cassie Edwards). I think it’s all bad, Monica, and while there are some ways in which I think AA authors DO suffer more, I think there are ways in which they suffer equally or even less than other author of color (i.e. what’s the difference between not being able to write white characters and not being able to write non-white, non-AA characters who aren’t stereotyped or whitewashed?).
Why is stating fact as far as black authors are treated in the genre driving people away from publicly supporting and working for the very thing you say you want for AA Romance authors.
That’s not what I said, Monica. What I said was that the implication that someone has to accept that AA Romance authors are the MOST discriminated against before their opinions are deemed acceptable is driving people away. The overgeneralized hazings are driving people away. The implication that anyone who doesn’t agree with you or is offended by anything you say is racist — those things, IMO, deter acceptance of your often very insightful views on the Romance industry you claim to want (and by extension active interest in creating change.
Do you really think the people who are so upset about hearing about how blacks are treated (some of them are reminded how THEY exclude and treat blacks worse than they treat other romance authors) really give the slightest damn about whether we achieve some parity and visibility within the genre?
I think there are many readers who care about parity and visibility for AA Romance authors. Where I think you’re drawing an unfair general conclusion is in your assumption that people get upset at hearing about the treatment of AA authors. I think what upsets people is the insinuation that any disagreement they have with you or any other AA author makes them racist or racially insensitive or uncaring about the situation AA Romance authors are in.
Yet, you’re always first to bring up the other minorities are more valid so shut the eff up about blacks then and lets talk about something that makes me more comfortable speech.
Show me where I said that, Monica. Show me where I said that any other group’s experiences are MORE valid. That statement is what I can only assume to be a deliberate misrepresentation of what I’ve said. Please. You’re smarter than that, Monica.
If they did, if you did, you wouldn’t mind the discussion so much.
Again, this kind of misrepresentation is below you, Monica.
Blacks have the right to talk about our issues as much as anybody else. If you’re upset by that fact, it’s from within yourself, not me for bringing it up.
If you think this is what I’ve been saying, you haven’t been reading my comments. If you’re twisting my point deliberately, then, again, that is below you. To clarify once again: 1. By all means talk about the treatment of AA authors in Romance; it’s your experience and it’s important. 2. What I disagree with and will protest is the implication that comes across in your comments that anyone who does not accept your assertion that AA Romance authors are the MOST discriminated against is either a) racist, b) to be dismissed for their ignorance, or c) racist.
It’s that condition (number 2) that you seem to put on the conversation that I think creates so much conflict, Monica. And IMO it’s a totally unnecessary condition, because whether AA Romance authors are the MOST discriminated against does not invalidate in any way the discrimination faced by AA Romance authors. But I think that for you maybe it’s become such an inseparable relationship between the discrimination and the idea that “being black is special” that you really don’t think that black Romance authors can get their due until that “special” level of discrimination is validated.
Robin
July 14
5:27 am
Yet, you’re always first to bring up the other minorities are more valid so shut the eff up about blacks then and lets talk about something that makes me more comfortable speech.
In fact, show me where I’ve said any of that or anything even close to it. Because on the contrary, I think my record shows that I’m not only comfortable talking about racism and the African American experience, I wrote a 300+ page dissertation on the rise of scientific racism and the artificial construction of race in the creation of American national identity (as well as numerous papers and articles on related subjects within literature, cultural history, and the law). I’m more than happy to talk with you about any aspect of race in America you would like, Monica.
Karen Scott
July 14
8:24 am
Yet, you’re always first to bring up the other minorities are more valid so shut the eff up about blacks then and lets talk about something that makes me more comfortable speech.
Oh Monica, I know Robin is more than able to come to her own defense, but seriously, that statement there was pure crap. What I really hate is when you get mad at people who are actually trying to understand the issue. You need to stop getting so fucking irate, and read things properly, instead of just seeing what you want to see.
Racism in romance isn’t just down to white people who won’t read AA romance, it’s also down to every single AA author who generally can’t be bothered getting off their arse, and doing something about it. I’ve said it before, but if this shit affected me personally, damn straight I’d be trying to change the status quo, much like yourself, but if you don’t mind me saying so, probably doing a better job of it. Why? Because it would be me that was most affected, not some white reader from Alabama who I don’t know.
Jane commented at Dear Author yesterday that, between her, Ann Christopher, and Nalini Singh, that they made up the majority of ethnics at the RWA. Man, that’s just sad.
You’re about to give me the excuse of money etc, etc, but if you’re really serious about this, you should be there, speaking to these people, running workshops. If people don’t turn up, they don’t turn up. If you don’t have a massive queue like JR Ward or Nora Roberts at your signing, then so what? The more white romance readers see black authors, the more you guys will find it easier to penetrate the The Great White Fog that is Romanceland. Exposure is so damn important.
Whenever I have to attend a business meeting, I’m generally the only black person there, but I have never let that stop me from coming away with their money. You gotta work the room in such a way that people stop concentrating on your colour, and start seeing what you can give them. Same thing with AA authors. Unfortunately, in your world, that may seem like selling out, or at the very least, Uncle Tom-like.
In my opinion Monica, when you go off at the people who do bother commenting, you’re preaching to the choir. I’ve already said how much I hate the deafening silence whenever racism in romance is brought up, so please take a deep breath, and calm the fuck down.
People discussing this subject, regardless of whether you agree with them or not, is so much better than sitting and pissing in the wind on your own, don’t you think?
And to think, this wasn’t even a racism in romance post.
Monica
July 14
11:21 am
This is why most black authors don’t bother to bring up our points of views on romance blogs and boards although you have to admit visibility on large boards such as AAR would bring name recognition.
It’s really too frustrating and not worth it. Which is also the reason some black authors are choosing not to spend thousands to go to the RWA. If you’ve got it to spend, the good part is the interface with the publishing industry and possibly networking with other authors. The readers–after over a dozen years of trying, no matter what is done makes much of difference as long as we stay black. We have enough sense to have tried many things and to realize that. That’s why you see less veteran black authors at the romance conferences.
Maybe working our own genre and niche and staying separate is the only viable solution.
When I get irate, I’m offended to the core. And yes, I was offended here. Nobody, including myself, said they disagreed with Valdes-Rodrigues, so why the extended comparison and attack if not to put us down and shut us up?
I join the silent majority of my sisters (some very few who chimed in and if you notice, said essentially the same thing I did), and keep it to my own blog.
Do you get why most black romance authors didn’t choose to interact with the romance crowd? They are simply too mean and stubborn in their disdain of blacks overall. It feels futile.
Seressia
July 14
3:47 pm
Jane commented at Dear Author yesterday that, between her, Ann Christopher, and Nalini Singh, that they made up the majority of ethnics at the RWA. Man, that’s just sad.
Since I know the danger of inferring or trying to interpret what someone else meant, I’ll say that I believe I can infer that Jane meant that they were the majority in that room at that time. Jackie of JM Jeffries was there. So was Kayla Perrin. Shirley Hailstock. Marjorie Liu. I’m sure there were others.
I try to go National every other year. I have a day job and only so much vacation time–two weeks to be exact, and sometimes I like to take an actual vacation. Since I did Atlanta last year and knew I was doing Romance Slam Jam and RT this year, there was no way that I was going to Dallas. Next year, somehow I am going to fit in RT, Slam Jam, and National in San Francisco.
Being an AA author writing AA romance is a Catch-22.
* You have to discover who your readers are and and go where they are. When RWA or RT visits cities with a large urban population or a city I want to research, or lists editors attending that I want to schmooze, I go. One event I attend every year is Romance Slam Jam, but that is a conference for readers and writers of AA romance. My investment pays off there.
BTW, the Kimani editors were not at RWA this year. If a major draw for AA authors and wannabe authors wasn’t there, half the incentive to attend is gone. I’m sure Harlequin made their decision based on how to get the most bang for their buck, and editors who acquire across multiple lines are the better choice to send.
* Some authors want to put racked with all romance, but the reality is, some bookstores aren’t going to do it. The Borders buyer for AA fiction was at RT this year, and I asked him about it. (yes, he orders the AA romance too, taking those from Kathy Baker) He says Borders is not going to change their shelving policies because the books sell better segregated.
What the hell am I supposed to do in the face of that?
* Publishers have special lines. This enables authors whose stories wouldn’t have gotten a shot before, a chance to get published. Consider it the affirmative action of Romancelandia. Debate still rages about affirmative action in America, and I’m sure there could be just as strident debate on it in Romancelandia. Frankly, I’m just glad that NY publishers have recognized that AA authors exist and have good stories to tell.
* As far as being online, honestly, I was a lot happier as an author when I wasn’t online as much. Have people outside of my core readership bought some of my books? I’m sure some have. Has it been worth being exposed to all these flare ups and clusters that Romancelandia seems to thrive on? At this particular moment, I say no.
And how does one discover these sites anyway? Is it because these are gathering places for people who read historicals and Category romance? I don’t read those. I went to AAR once or twice, and I couldn’t figure it out, and really, the more time I’m online, the less time I’m writing.
That really is what it comes down to. Many AA authors don’t have strong web presences because their readers aren’t online. Their own research has shown them this. They meet them out and about. They have full time day gigs, so any time not at work or running their households is spent writing. Their readers are going to buy them based on a good book, not a good comment on a message board.
GENERALIZATION ALERT: Most black people when they have free time and money go out, not online. They listen to the radio more. Tyler Perry got where he is by word of mouth and quality product, not by being online. Same with Terry McMillan. E. Lynn Harris. Even Zane.
Which is why I’m signing and networking at the National Black Arts Festival here in Atlanta next weekend. Not everyone there will buy a book, but every one there will be initially receptive.
To balance it out, I’m also attending the Decatur Book Festival. My writers group will have a booth there, and I’ll be manning it and occasionally talking about my books and romance writing.
It’ll be interesting to see which event garners me more exposure. I’m betting on the Arts Festival.
Maybe I’m just grumpy because I’m spending the next several hours taking my braids down. I’m literally and figuratively pulling my hair out, and I’m frankly tired of it.
Robin
July 14
4:48 pm
Some authors want to put racked with all romance, but the reality is, some bookstores aren’t going to do it. The Borders buyer for AA fiction was at RT this year, and I asked him about it. (yes, he orders the AA romance too, taking those from Kathy Baker) He says Borders is not going to change their shelving policies because the books sell better segregated.
What the hell am I supposed to do in the face of that?
I honestly don’t know, Seressia. But I agree with Karen that part of the answer for AA authors is more exposure to white or non-AA readers. Thinking more about what you said on the SB’s the other day, I think you’re right that increasing sales can make a difference if those sales translate into more mainstream exposure for AA Romance. If enough non-AA readers are looking for AA Romance, booksellers will eventually change their shelving practices, because the money will have shifted some, too.
I understand your feelings about the online experience, but I do know that a number of reader bloggers are reading and reviewing AA Romance. I would love to review your books (I review on Dear Author as Janet and would be happy to purchase one of your books to review so you get both the sale and the review), and if you don’t feel comfortable with that, then I know there are other readers open to receiving and buying books from AA authors for review.
Consider it the affirmative action of Romancelandia.
One of the hardest things about that debate as it came down in my state (California) was the split within the minority communities. Some eligible minorities felt stigmatized by the programs, while others felt that it gave them a necessary step onto a more level playing field. The situation is especially acute in education, because higher education is still the most influential factor in American social mobility, and unfortunately, students from poorer areas often have access to the least rigorous primary and secondary schools, and often these schools have large minority populations, as well, meaning that with each step toward college more minority students get left behind in regard to completing college-eligible coursework, etc. For example, students need to pass certain benchmarks in reading and math to be on track for college, and yet they often have little control over whether the schools they are in provide them with the necessary resources to get them there. In our state, at least, it’s not just race or money, but a combination, since our schools are funded partially through local property taxes. It’s a vicious cycle, to say the least.
So I understand how the separate imprints are a double-edged sword for AA Romance. And again, if the goal is mainstreaming, then I think it comes down to getting more people to try AA Romance — as a first step, as least. Was it you or someone else who commented in Karen’s survey that paranormal readers don’t seem to care about race? Maybe that’s the area of the market to target initially? I frankly wish there were more AA historical Romances, although I understand that the wisdom is that they don’t sell well. I know Avon is recruiting for contemps, which is interesting to me, because I see so many of the contemporary books published through NY houses as REALLY traditional and conservative (more so than a lot of the historicals, ironically). And maybe pushing the ebook market more might help, too, since I get the impression that it’s much easier to break the traditional “rules” with ebook publishers (and that some of these presses were formed to break the rules). None of this may change the world for AA authors, but perhaps it will be a baby step or two in the right direction.
Anonymous
July 16
4:35 am
>> Sometimes I feel that even if I said I agreed with every single one of your statements that in the next breath you’d turn around and smite me for THAT. << That’s why I discovered long ago, most white readers are in a damned if they do, damned if they don’t. If whites don’t buy and/or read black romance books then they’re racist, since it’s automatically assumed, white reader + black romance book = white racist non-reader, or if they do read a book, they dare not criticize the book, for whatever (legitimate) reason, because then they are labeled a racist, and can’t or won’t judge the book fairly, after all, they are racist. Or worse if you agree wholesale, then you’re being condescending, and since you can’t get other white readers to agree, or get them to discuss race, be concerned, etc., then you’re still a racist, who by chance just happen to agree. I’ve also learned all this discussion isn’t about finding solutions, common ground, etc., it’s about having oneup(wo)manship in the discussion — as soon as one is called a racist, folks run for cover. Those who toss out the word, so freely and frequently, know it. It’s about manipulation and control. Those who think they don’t have much control, latch onto whatever and whenever they can. Besides, you can’t guilt others into reading and/or buying books, they aren’t interested in. Why one would want to attract a reader, who is kicking and screaming, all the way, should realize they’re defeating their purpose. The same folks who complain about folks putting words, in their mouths, so to speak, in the exchange, will turn right around and do the same to others. So, then everyone spend more time and words in responding, I didn’t say so and so, this is what I said. Just as they think everyone is misinterpreting their words, they misinterpret others. The same folks who claim the others aren’t listening to them, don’t listen to others. They want others to hear them, but they never hear others. If you come to every (racial) discussion thinking you’re the only one who is right, what you say outweighs what others have to contribute, that everyone must agree with everything you espouse, your experiences are the only ones that matter, then don’t be surprised that along the way you’re going to get pissed off when others, don’t fall in lock step, and call you out. They aren’t being racist, they are just hip to the game, and not scared to call it as *they* see it, and not how *you* want to them see it. Communication has always been a two way street. And, often times you have to listen more than talk. But, sadly, some folks just want to get up on the soapbox, and stay there, and not give anyone else a chance. Then, get disgusted and upset, when they realize the crowd, left hours ago. P.S. Yes, I posted anonymously, if you want to change the focus to that, and ignore everything I said, have at it.
Angela
July 16
12:27 pm
Completely valid argument anonymous. The romance genre is conservative by nature, and if Middle America runs the genre, it’s going to be difficult to change the way it’s going. The best thing authors can do is just write damn good books and if they want to be considered “romance authors” without the moniker of their ethnicity, just go out there and act like you’re a Romance Writer.
sallahdog
July 16
2:52 pm
ONe thing that has bothered me with the race discussions is that I don’t feel that I can win (or not have my head handed to me for that matter).I have been told more than once, because I am not black, I can’t know what its like. but that door swings both ways.
The thing that bothered me in earlier discussions, was the criticism of white authors writing black characters.. If a white author writes a black character, she is usually said to be stereotypiing or making them a cariture.. (thinking of the criticism of SEP, and Susan Brockmann)… If you don’t write black characters, then you are just living in your white bread world..
A lot was said of the racism of white women who didnt like to see white men in the company of black women. Yet when asked if they wrote black heros in love with white women (forgive me, maybe there is a whole slew of books with this scenario, but I can’t find them) there was deafening silence.
If a black female author can’t write that scenario because she doesn’t “know” it or doesn’t find it interesting to write about, then how can she expect a white reader to connect with her black herione in love with a white man or her two black characters .
(in other words, its bs, because obviously some of us CAN connect with heros and heroines not of our skin color)
I do think there is prejudice and racism running in the book world today, but I don’t think that “white” America is the only offender here. We ALL need to work on our preconcieved notions.
So I personally just try to keep an open mind and find some good books (since I wasnt aware of the shelving problem before)…thanks to this blog and interviews, I have found several new favorite authors.
Robin
July 16
4:49 pm
I just wanted to point out the photo Jane took of the Farrah Rochon reader group at RWA: http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/07/11/more-author-signing-pictures/
Seressia
July 16
10:24 pm
Robin wrote:
I would love to review your books.
Robin, thanks! I don’t have my copies of the new one yet, but I can certainly send it to you when I get it. And of course, if you think it sucks, you should say so, and why! 🙂
Robin
July 17
5:25 am
I don’t have my copies of the new one yet, but I can certainly send it to you when I get it. And of course, if you think it sucks, you should say so, and why! 🙂
I’ve already picked up No Commitment Required and will start with that one. And of course I’ll be honest in my review. Reading is so important to me that I can’t help but say what I think about any book.
azteclady
July 18
5:17 pm
Seressia, my apologies to you, for after reading the post comment thread again I see I was, indeed, putting words in your mouth.
Robin, thank you for taking my words in the best light possible. You usually manage to say, clearly and calmly, what I want to convey.
Karen, as always, thank you for the space to debate these topics.
Karen Scott
July 18
6:32 pm
Karen, as always, thank you for the space to debate these topics.
Hey, without you guys, these debates wouldn’t happen, so thank you
Anonymous
July 18
6:36 pm
>> The thing that bothered me in earlier discussions, was the criticism of white authors writing black characters.. If a white author writes a black character, she is usually said to be stereotypiing or making them a cariture.. (thinking of the criticism of SEP, and Susan Brockmann)… If you don’t write black characters, then you are just living in your white bread world.. << This is another example of what I meant, about being damned if you do, and damned if you don’t. Shoving someone into a corner, in which they have no way to turn, without being criticized, just causes those folks to not want to be bothered. The same folks who claim they want to have discussion then will do everything to shut off the discussions. On the first note of disagreement, the white participants are labeled racist, and black participants are labeled uncle toms/thomasinas. >> I do think there is prejudice and racism running in the book world today, but I don’t think that “white” America is the only offender here. We ALL need to work on our preconcieved notions. << AMEN. The worse offenders are those who assume or just know that whites are racist yet don’t realize in verbalizing such a sentiment, they are exposing and exhibiting their own racial prejudices. It’s more telling of them than those they are labeling racist. They want others to give them the benefit of doubt, but rarely offer the same to others. If you go around looking for racism in every situation and everybody then you’re *definitely* going to find it. So, to be frustrated and outraged when you do, is just about dramatics. Sure there are folks who wouldn’t be caught dead, with a book in their hands, authored by one of another race or ethnic group, but really what can you do about those people. And, to spend an enormous amount of your time, effort and energy pointing them out and calling them a racist, while ignore all those others who are not, is a waste. The main issue black writers have is really with the publishers yet they like to take out their angst on the white readers, which is unfortunate. Just makes them convenient scapegoats. The black writer would do much better to focus their discontent at those who deserve it — the publishers. There are readers who won’t read books because either there are white people on the cover, or there are black people on the cover, or there aren’t any people on the cover. So, which reader is the racist? Every book can’t be on the front table as you enter the bookstore. And, if a book buyer isn’t going to walk a few feet, or beyond the first shelf of books, in store, then really railing about the white racist readers, on these blogs are just to keep the traffic site counter ticking upward. The main problem is that there is a lot of competition, so many books published, and it seems the readers/book buyers are shrinking, due to time constraints, limited funds, other entertaining options, etc. But, the remedy isn’t to go around tossing the big ole bad R word about haphazardly, but it is, to write the best book that you can. The ole classic notion of build it and they will come. And, if you have a target audience in mind, while writing and marketing, then don’t get besides yourself when those not in that group aren’t interested in your book.
Karen Scott
July 18
7:26 pm
Hey Anon with the link, I had to delete cuzthe long old link was destroying my blog, sorry.