Reader Bloggers Vs Online Authors – Just A Myth? Or Is It For Real?
Thursday, January 17, 2008Posted in: random musings, You know the sky really is blue right?
You know what really chaps my arse?
People (Read: some authors) who are so twisted up with bitterness, that they simply refuse to see beyond the end of their own noses. These people (read: some authors) point blank refuse to acknowledge that sometimes, their (mostly perceived) ‘enemies’ are right.
They consistently take the opposing view, just because, they can’t bear the thought of conceding that sometimes these people, who they hate beyond measure, might actually be talking sense. It’s a strange phenomenon, and one that I’ve only ever experienced, with very young children, until recently. (You know, the game that you play, where you say the sky is blue, and the child says it’s black?) I’ve seen more examples of this, over the past couple of weeks, than ever before.
Every author, who’s ever tangled with a Mean Reader Blogger, predictably came out with their own twisted version of events, with regards to the plagiarism lovefest. They ‘gleefully’ bashed the SBs and DA, whilst lamenting how terrible it was that those bitches (paraphrasing of course) had put a 71 year old through all this stress, and brought shame to the genre, (and God, can’t they shut up already?) yada yada yada. My head still hurts from all the sneaky sideswipes.
I wasn’t surprised by any of it, as it happens. Unfortunately, I do tend to have low expectations of romance authors in general (I love the exceptions obviously), so this was just par for the course, as far as I was concerned.
It was a shame though, especially for the absolute lovers of the genre. And whilst I admit that bloggers like myself may have played a part or two, in fostering those very negative feelings that some authors have towards Reader Bloggers, (no apologies for that I’m afraid) it seems to me that some of them (authors) seem to forget about the majority of the bloggers who simply adore the genre, and want to promote it, every chance they get.
Readers like KristieJ for instance. There are more KristieJs out there, than Karen Scotts. You guys know that, right?
And also, let me say here and now, that in my opinion (and of course I’m rarely wrong) The SBs, and the gals at Dear Author have done more for the genre, than a lot of the authors who have partaken in the Reader Blogger-bashing and the faux hand-wringing that’s been taking place in Romanceland of late.
These women do a really great job, (for those people who need things explaining to them, I’m talking about the SBs and DA) in the Blogosphere, and without their presence, I think Romanceland would be a much less interesting place to visit.
By the way, if you’re wondering if I’m talking about you, I probably am.
(And for every person who suggested that this whole issue has just been about blog hits, you guys really need to think about that some more.)
Jennifer McKenzie
January 17
11:57 pm
I have to agree with you. DA and SB have furthered the genre to a generation of younger readers who needed something other than the same old same old.
And DA has done even more. Dear Author has given a whole new technology a voice and a readership. Ebooks have gotten reviewed and read because of the Jaynes and their posts on ereaders have been informative and brilliant.
The problem I see is that when they DO tackle some of the tough questions in the romance genre, some authors react. And react.
Too bad, really.
Not that I haven’t been guilty of multiple posting about an “issue”.
*cough* WCP *cough* But I don’t think those discussions are the ones you’re referring to.
I noticed Mrs. Giggles said she was mellowing. I think that’s too bad. But like she said, keeping up with the snark is exhausting.
I hope DA, SB and this blog keep at it.
Kristie (J)
January 18
1:57 am
Ah Damn! Does that mean I’m not considered one of the Mean Bloggers? I said Fuck – more than once a few posts ago. Can that count? Of course that was because I blew a fuse and it wasn’t over romance.
Seriously – this whole Mean Blogger thing amuses/annoys me. I was fortunate enough to meet Sarah and Candy and share a room with Jane. They aren’t mean. They are fun, great people. They are passionate about the romance industry and love it. They just don’t necessarily look through it with rose-coloured glasses the way I seem to. (but then I was shocked last week to discover a co-worker cheated to get a job in a different department).
SB & DA – and you – have done more for romance than many a nice fawning one.
Angela James
January 18
3:10 am
Every time I’ve heard the “71 year old woman” comment this week I think of my dad traveling to Tennessee this week to “interview” an 81 year old woman who they suspect committed a murder 20 years ago in his state. So when she was 61. Only ten years younger than CE.
Now, murder isn’t equal to plagiarism, obviously, (let me say it again in case someone gets indignant on CE’s behalf–I’m not comparing murder to plagiarism) but I don’t think the murder victim’s family care about the age of the murderer (either now or at the time of the murder) as far as whether she should be held accountable for her actions. And neither should anyone else care how old a plagiarist is or isn’t.
In other words, she’s responsible for her actions, for the choices SHE made and should be held accountable whether she’s 17 or 71, just as we all should. And truthfully, at 71, she should know better.
Jane
January 18
3:48 am
It’s interesting to see what the perception of people are outside the romance industry and generally, the agendas of some authors are pretty thinly disguised.
azteclady
January 18
3:53 am
You know, this is what bugs me.
We all make choices, all the time. Then we have to live with the consequences. It’s like gambling–you bet that you are right when you make your choice.
If one is careful and/or lucky, most of the time the decisions are sensible, and the consequences are positive–which, I’d presume was what one wanted to begin with.
But sometimes you make the wrong choice. It can be with the best of intentions, but it turns out it’s the wrong choice. Well, there ain’t no ‘do overs’ in life–you simply have to live with the consequences of that wrong choice.
From what we’ve seen in the past nine, ten days, Ms Edwards made the same choice consistently for a period of decades: to lift (read: steal) other writers’ prose. Now she has to live with the consequences.
And being the vindictive bitch that I am, I hope they include both settlement for those texts under copyright, and some public shaming.
meljean brook
January 18
4:22 am
It’s comments like this that freak me out (from D Smith at Mrs Giggles): “This is just a horrifying example of how what appears to be a pre-established blogger vendetta turned into a wholescale effort to target and ruin an author. Whether you think C.E. is a villain or a victim, this kind of Mean Girl Internet Pile-On ought to scare all of us.”
I had a few knee-jerk reactions to a couple of statements at DA last week that I directed at Jane and Robin — and I know a lot of that was not just my immediate reaction to the statement, but a reaction to a tone building up through the comments from other authors, as well as just a general frustration over the situation. But disagreeing with a statement and maybe how it was stated, and translating that to a Mean Girl agenda?
Gah!
(Total aside — I’ve only ever heard “mean girl” used by Jane and others in a wry, self-referential way. So to see them actually called “Mean Girls” threw me for a second, and I had to wonder if the comment was actually a joke of some kind before I realized, sadly, that it wasn’t.)
I totally get that not everyone loves the SBs, and that their snark isn’t to their taste, or they may actively dislike it. And I don’t see DA as snarky, actually — the Ja(y)nes can be funny, but it’s a different type of humor. What they are is just blunt, and a call-it-like-they-see-it style. Of course that isn’t all happiness and light, and anyone who only wants romance with happiness and light won’t be happy with the discussions there.
But in both places, the discussions are the key. Nowhere else (with the exception of AAR) do you find so much discussion relevant to the genre that includes authors and readers — and it’s *impossible* to have that kind of discussion at an author site. Someone is always going to feel uncomfortable stating their opinion if, by extension, it means that the hosting author’s *work* might be spoken about negatively in any way. Even if the author doesn’t care.
That’s unfortunate, but I also don’t think it’ll change. I could say a million times that I don’t care if someone posts on my blog that they hate my books — and there are going to be people who would be uncomfortable doing it. Good discussion simply can’t take place in that kind of environment between authors and readers.
And this last controversy? Does the exact opposite, in my mind, that the quote above suggests. Instead of making me afraid of a pile-on, it makes me value those discussions with the mean girls all the more and the sites they host. Because a) there are always dissenting voices that are allowed to speak, b) there are always people willing to call bullshit. So some people want to call bullshit on everything the SBs and DA are? Fine; it’s just unfortunate that the issues being discussed are called bullshit as well.
Anyway. Just trying to keep track of it all makes me insane, so I’m crawling back in my hole đ
Nora Roberts
January 18
4:26 am
For me, too many comments were about criticizing the messenger than about criticizing or discussing plagiarism. As if the message could and should be dismissed because of who delivered it. And because of that, the issue often became clouded and fractured.
Mean girl bloggers? Maybe some see it that way, and okay. But some who do had no problem being snarky and vicious when commenting about the very people they were complaining about.
Ms Self-Righteous, meet Mr. Hypocrisy.
Shannon Stacey
January 18
12:31 pm
Back on the 11th, I made this comment on my blog: AND to the people who said the ladies from Smart Bitches and Dear Author shouldnât have been at RWA Nats because theyâre not âprofessionalsââ :neener:
I think some people couldn’t—or wouldn’t—separate some of the more vehement and/or gleeful commenters from the names at the top of the blogs.
Katie(babs)
January 18
2:37 pm
Why wouldn’t the ladies at Dear Author or the Smart Bitches not be considered professional? Are you only considered a “professional” if you get paid for your craft?
Some bloggers need to check themselves while others are always classy. But yet again there is something called freedom of speech, so if you are bound to say something that may offend people or disagree with your point, you need to take that into consideration also and get ready to take them on.
And for the record, Kristie(J) is one meanie let me tell you! She can say the word “fuck” with the best of us. đ
Shiloh Walker
January 18
2:43 pm
None of this is new, we all know that.
Those that cry ‘mean girl’ remind me of being back in middle/high school.
you like that girl? But she said my dress was ugly, she stole my boyfriend, when the teacher asked if I copied her test answers, she didn’t lie…
It’s old. It’s tired. It’s annoying and it doesn’t much reflect very well on whatever author in question.
I have no problem with what the SB’s have posted… and (snarl, snarl) I’m actually getting addicted to their blog…I’m blaming it on the ferret pics. The ferret pics are too cute.
Anyway, I’m rambling. I rarely went to the SB blog before this happened. It just didn’t appeal all that much. But I’ve been there enough to know that whether they love this author or hate that one…
The bottom line is they love the genre
They understand the genre.
They push the genre.
The DA blog? Now I’m addicted to that one… and the same goes for them.
they love the genre
They understand it. They push it.
Have they torn into a couple of authors over behavior? Probably.
Have they ripped a book to pieces in a review? Yeah.
But how many books have they sold through word of mouth…er… word of blog-post?
Plenty.
I could waste my energy getting worked up every time I had a bad review or I could spend that energy on my book. I’m a writer, and I like to think I’m a pro… so I’m going to choose the book.
I’m very nosy… don’t suppose anybody wants to email me some links about where the ‘mean girls’ are being torn to bits, do they?
shilohwalker@gmail.com
Whether anybody likes the SBs or DA blog, I don’t see how anybody could logically look at the evidence supplied and clearly state there was no cause for concern.
And as for the age thing… many, many of the comments have been regarding the ACT… not the author behind it. Regardless of her age, there was something wrong done.
If a 71 year old woman were to steal my wallet & my credit cards (not physically hurting me, just stealing) and then she was caught, would I just look at her and say… well, she’s 71. No… especially if she was caught with the wallets and credit cards of 10 other people.
I believe in forgiveness, I believe in compassion…but I also believe in accountability. Somebody that refuses to take responsibility for their wrongs is likely to continue doing them.
Wrong is wrong. If you’re old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, then you’re old enough to understand that wrong comes with consequences.
Anonymous
January 18
7:20 pm
I’m not surprised at the level of bitterness aimed towards blogers like you, you mostly take the utmost delight in grinding these writers down to a pulp, so why the surprise? Karma is a bitch!
HelenKay
January 18
7:41 pm
“…I do tend to have low expectations of romance authors in general…”
Dearest Karen – You are ruining my Friday with talk like this!
Seems to me the bottom line is this: the ladies at SB and DA took one for the team. They stood up and said things that needed to be said, even when saying them made them targets. It’s sad that the kill-the-messenger stuff goes on. Not a surprise, but sad.
azteclady
January 18
7:42 pm
anonymous at 07:20:00, your comment made me smile while thinking, can you be anymore clueless?
Thought, perhaps the correct word would be “biased”–which is obviously your right.
Anonymous
January 18
7:43 pm
Another web site suggested that because of her age CE would not be writing that much longer. Let’s tell it to Doris Lessing and a dozen others I can name including Doris Lessing and Naomi Mitchison.
Jackie L.
January 18
9:19 pm
After seeing a couple of posts at Mrs. Giggles, I made the rounds of a few of the usual suspects, and they were, well, just being themselves. Sigh.
I wondered if they don’t care so much about plagiarism as they are unlikely to be stolen from?
Anonymous
January 19
1:21 am
Old Deb Smith sure gets around, don’t she? She’s gone from blog to blog for over a week, spewing incorrect legal advice & other assorted frothings aobut authors such as La Nora who dare to speak up about the issue.
Grudge much?
kirsten saell
January 19
9:24 am
I’m not sure why everyone is so surprised. Whistleblowers get shit on all the time for fucking with the status quo. For two bitches who detest Cassie Edwards’ writing, I thought Sarah and Candy were remarkably reserved with their opinions in their posts.
Truth hurts, though, especially when it’s all organized in little tables and charts that are impossible to rebut–that’s why the entire issue devolves into “You bitches are so mean, you hurt my feeeeeelings!” To which I would reply: res ipsa loquitur. Can’t argue with facts.
Four books a year for 25 years? To tell you the truth, I would have been more shocked if someone proved to me C.E. did that without cutting and pasting other people’s prose. I noticed the passages in question mostly had to do with scenery and infodump. Makes me wonder if she lifted any sex scenes?
Nora Roberts
January 19
12:56 pm
I don’t know Deb Smith, but she sure had roamed around taking shots at me over this.
As for writing lotsa books in 25 years . . . ah, it can be done without plagiarizing.
I agree that when arguing with facts becomes impossible or very, very difficult, it’s easier to attack those who offer the facts.
Shiloh Walker
January 19
1:20 pm
As for writing lotsa books in 25 years . . . ah, it can be done without plagiarizing.
*G*
What’s your title count again, Nora?
Some people write faster than others, just like some people read faster than others. It all depends on the author.
Anonymous
January 19
2:41 pm
Totally unrelated piece of news: Venus Press’ website is back up. And the books authors took elsewhere are up there.
azteclady
January 19
3:15 pm
You know how the number of books a year keeps coming up? Every time I read that, I want to say “Isaac Asimov”
Yes, it definitely can be done without plagiarizing.
Tracy
January 19
5:23 pm
Shiloh said, “Wrong is wrong. If you’re old enough to understand the difference between right and wrong, then you’re old enough to understand that wrong comes with consequences.” And since this is a lesson my 8 and 5 year old hear over and over again (and they have been hearing it for YEARS), then a 71 year old woman should know right from wrong and know that consequences follow your actions.
December/Stacia
January 19
5:49 pm
You’re not the only one, Ms. Roberts. I know at least one other blogger who got a not-so-friendly visit from Deb Smith recently.
Anonymous
January 19
6:06 pm
Smith’s comments on blogs are bunnies & rainbows compared to the stuff she’s saying in psuedo private.
azteclady
January 19
6:17 pm
Okay, now I’m rubbernecking.
How come there’s no mention of any of this in Ms Deborah Smith’s own website?
I mean, if she’s so convinced of Ms Edwards’s innocent, etc. how come Ms Smith doesn’t come right out in her own place with a public show of support?
Gotta scratch my head on that one.
As for the pseudo private loops… *wince* don’t we all know by now that there ain’t nothing private once it’s floating online somewhere?
Karen Scott
January 19
6:22 pm
I think Deb Smith was one of the fucktards who was spewing absolute drivel, during the RWA Swan hat-gate fest. Didn’t she imply that what Maverick/Mancusi were wearing were tantamount to encouraging pedophilia? I’m sure that was her.
Karen Scott
January 19
6:31 pm
AL, She has a website? Link?
azteclady
January 19
6:35 pm
This is what I’m looking at, Karen:
http://www.deborah-smith.com/
Anonymous
January 19
6:40 pm
a few things from gooogle
personnal site
amazon
cached amazon page
kirsten saell
January 19
7:02 pm
As for writing lotsa books in 25 years . . . ah, it can be done without plagiarizing.
I wasn’t saying it can’t be done. I’m just sayin there’s only so many Native American dude/white chick historical romances a person could write before things aren’t so fresh anymore. I do know Nora doesn’t write stories with basically the same theme over and over. And I know authors that prolific usually have to shake things up a bit to keep their creativity. Stephen King doesn’t just write horror, and Nora doesn’t just write contemp.
I have a hard time thinking anyone could write 100 Cassie Edwards type novels and without needing something to flog the muse.
sallahdog
January 19
9:49 pm
Sorry to chime in so late on this. On one particular site “countless lives have been ruined” by mean girl bloggers, when called on this bs, and asking for naming of just ONE freakin person whos life was ruined by mean girl bloggers, the entire thread has dissapeared…
Sorry, I call Bullshit on the notion. I love me a flame war, I will sit up and admit it, loud and clear. But if someone is going to go after “mean girl bloggers” and say that they have ruined lives and careers, they really need to put up, or shut up…
I don’t even see CEs career as ruined, because you can bet that someone will be willing to publish her (as they have Dailey) and that someone will be willing to buy (as with Dailey)….
azteclady
January 20
9:36 pm
Karen asked, “I think Deb Smith was one of the fucktards who was spewing absolute drivel, during the RWA Swan hat-gate fest. Didn’t she imply that what Maverick/Mancusi were wearing were tantamount to encouraging pedophilia? I’m sure that was her.”
Since I’ve got nothing better to do (hey, it’s Sunday), I went looking.
I found something here http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2007/07/18/it-is-not-enough-to-write-a-good-book/#comment-48771
which links to the original comments at Smart Bitches.