AztecLady speaks: Islam is peace
Friday, August 8, 2008Posted in: Azteclady Speaks, hypocrisy
Tags:Prejudice
Reading this post at the Smart Bitches, I have been struck again by the fact that the few loud extremists drown the many silent moderates.
First, of course, allow me to admit to—and apologize for—an instance of kneejerk reaction in direct and violent opposition to what I said here just the other day.**
The fact is that no religion is a monolithic mass of humanity, but that is a very very difficult fact to remember when being faced, again and again, with the fact that the only voices we hear are those of the intolerant fanatics. Moderate individuals of every group need to step up and speak out—loudly, repeatedly—because quiet, moderate voices can’t be heard under the roaring noise of fanaticism.
Just as the squeaky wheel gets the grease, those few loud voices get the lion’s share of media attention—it is the nature of the beast, after all. So the rest of us, those who believe in living our lives on our terms and letting everyone else live their lives on their terms, we need to make noise too.
Because by keeping quiet, by allowing the fanatics (of all stripes—Fred Phelps’ so called church, Warren Jeffs’ fundamentalist LDS splinter cult, etc) to be the only ones who are seen and heard, we are tacitly endorsing their image as the image of any given religious group.
If it’s not us – who? If it’s not now – when?
Daca nu noi, cine? Daca nu, acum, cind?
Si c’est pas nous – qui? Si c’est pas maintenant – quand?
—
May our hands be unlocked.. someday bringing Peace to all.
Your GOD bless each and everyone of you…
Your GOD bless all our nations…
Your GOD bless the HUMAN RACE…
(AnaB*, flickr Speak up for Peace)
**the ‘hypocrisy’ tag is for my own hypocrisy, in case anyone was wondering.
Teddypig
August 8
4:32 pm
Don’t feel too bad.
Let’s face it. A gay guy is not gonna be too ready to calmly respect anyone representing a religion that calls for his immediate death through Fundamentalist Islamic Law. That is not like on the level of say your run of the mill Pat Buchanan or Jerry Falwell flapping their yaps that you can reach over and turn off.
In my own and others opinion Islamic Law has created some of the biggest Human Rights hell holes on this planet today. I am not even gonna bring up the UN Homosexual Rights bills that the Islamic Nations have blocked repeatedly.
I mean it’s not like it happened in history back some time ago. Gay people are being put to death right this minute because of these religious values that I am being told I should respect and be sensitive to.
Hmmmm not working for me, sorry.
veinglory
August 8
4:57 pm
Teddy, I may be reading you wrong, but I think that may be missing the point. Islam is not represented by fundamentalists, fundamentalism is. I don’t generally see a person I know (the Fijian primary school teacher down the road for example) as ‘representing’ a religion that is bigoted because he is Muslim. For the simple reason that he doesn’t (represent Islam, which is not innately bigoted). Nor do I think the woman in the next cubicle hates gays because she is Christian.
All major religions have hateful, tolerant, etc aspects. Nor do I, as often seems to be assumed, hate believers because I am an atheist. These generalisations just don’t work and the only way around it is if more people are more visible as being the ‘normal’ face of their philosophy or faith rather than letting the dangerous idiots constantly take centre stage.
Being anti-anything is not a doctrine to blame a religion for, it is an individual choice for which every person bares the responsibility, unshared no matter what they might say with anyone–including God. Religion doesn’t mean someone hates, doesn’t make someone hate, nor is it an excuse for hate, although we seem to be allowing some people to use it that way.
Lauren Dane
August 8
5:18 pm
I actually think, despite a few flare ups, that discussion is incredibly fascinating and civil considering the subjects are the biggies – race, gender, national identity, politics and religion.
AztecLady
August 8
5:25 pm
Lauren, I agree. However, I did have a nasty jerk reaction, which further discussion made me reconsider. Hence this post.
emily, you have it right–that is indeed my point. And not just mine, as you can gleam by reading Robin’s and other people’s comments.
Teddy, what emily said.
Teddypig
August 8
5:26 pm
Right Emily but politics and government and religion in the Middle East is not like our separation of church and state. The total disconnect on that note was very very apparent in that entire conversation.
So I think we have to disagree on this point.
Kimberly Anne
August 8
6:28 pm
I think I must side with Teddy on this.
Emily, you said that, “Islam is not represented by fundamentalists, fundamentalism is.” And while that is certainly true, the holy book of the Muslim faith, just like the holy book of the Christians, does condemn the practice of homosexuality. Not to mention – in the Bible, at least – slavery, genocide, and a whole host of other monstrosities are considered okay.
The trouble is, in order to separate the moderates from the extremists, we must choose to ignore much in their holy books, just as they do. And when the faithful claim that these books are the word of god, this makes things even more difficult. Are some words of god (about genocide, homosexuality, the treatment of women, food restrictions, what underwear to wear, etc.) to be ignored and others to be followed? How do you know which is which? Who gets to decide?
Most people are good, loving individuals who only want happiness and security for their loved ones, so it stands to reason that most religious people are the same. BUT, their holiest books do espouse hatred and intolerance. What is the line between religion and the books they are built on?
veinglory
August 8
6:37 pm
I am not sure why Muslim means Middle East. I know a great many Muslims, none of them happen to be in or come from the Middle east as far as I know. Can we not be a little more aware of what categories are in play?
Also, what the holy books say is often significantly more nuanced that what some people are say they say. I have not read the Koran but I have read the Bible and read books about how it was translated and the extent to which it should/should not be assumed general and infallible. And what the hey, I think the rule of law is vital, necessary and good, but I break some of them regularly. To be human is to make up our own minds, including what we think is in the mind of God.
On a specific level. What I do not see is why Islam is condemned far beyond the extent that Christianity or… heck psychoanalysis or any other huge code that is misused is.
In summary, the Koran douse not espouse hate. Some Muslims are not from the Middle east. Most Muslins do not follow a creed of hate.
There are hate groups in every major faith. But it seems only with Muslims are we allowed to denigrate the entire group on this basis. Why is this? Let me fold in the last great issue: is it because we see them as foreign, colored and so easier to stereotype?
Teddypig
August 8
6:55 pm
Simple Emily,
Being put to death is not a stereotype or a generalization or a general theory about the Muslim Religion or an Islamic Country it is fact of life played out every day.
Just go read wiki. Google Islamic Countries and Homosexuality.
AztecLady
August 8
6:59 pm
Let me put it this way, and hope it makes some sense.
I identify myself as Catholic.
I’m sure plenty of extremist Catholics can come out and quote Bible verses condemning homosexualy, calling for the burning of witches, the stoning of adulterers, what have you.
Me, I don’t really give a shit. I believe that the spirit of Catholicism (and of most religions, ignorant opinionated twit that I am) is this:
And I further believe that most human beings around the world, regardless of how they identify themselves (Jews, Mormons, Muslim, yellow, transgendered, short, muscular–fill in the blank) feel the same way I do.
Those are the people I’m asking to speak up. Those are the people whose voices must raise over the hatred and intolerance of the few.
AztecLady
August 8
7:02 pm
Teddy, that’s exactly like judging ALL Christians by the Fred Phelps of the world.
Teddypig
August 8
7:10 pm
Fred Phelps does not run my government or my local police force and cannot put me to death.
But he did get stopped at the Canadian Border for hate speech.
There are 4000 homosexuals put to death by Iran that I think would have a problem with the whole “religion of peace” deal.
AztecLady
August 8
7:22 pm
Precisely. TP.
If someone of Phelps’ ilk were elected to office, everyone around the globe would have more reason to think ‘all Americans are hatemongers’ than we do to think that about countries where the majority do not elect the people in office.
Teddypig
August 8
7:25 pm
So I hope then you can understand that I am reasonably tolerant of organized religion… but no I do not trust it and hope it eventually goes away like a bad head cold.
Right “they” do not elect anyone because most Islamic Countries are not democratic.
shirley
August 9
12:30 am
I agree with you whole heartedly, AztecLady. And if this were how everyone lived, the world would be a much better place. As it is, all we can do is follow this bit of wise advice as well as we can and hope to spread more love than hate in our lives.
I agree with TP. Islam may be much maligned, erroneously sometimes, but it is very difficult for me to marry the sound bite of ‘religion of peace’ with stoning a woman to death for being raped, setting a woman on fire because she failed to have dinner ready, sending her to prison for just making eye contact with a man not her father, brother, or spouse. For beheading gay men – or men who have sexual relations with other men- when their very society only serves to segregate the races further and thus may serve to have men turning to each other for love, happiness, or connectivity, which all humans need.
And no religion should be given special consideration over another. Christians are much maligned in the States, but we don’t fall over ourselves trying to make sure we don’t hurt their feelings. We only do this, religiously speaking, with Muslims. Perhaps because the media has a lot of Americans thinking if we don’t, we’ll have to suffer more violence. Perhaps it’s because we’re so different that the political correct department says we have to give them special treatment.
Either way, it’s wrong. No one group should be lifted above any other, not in America. I’m not saying it’s fair or right now, but we are trying to change things. It’s a slow affair, but unless we the people take up all those guns the Supreme Court just said we had the right to carry, and overthrow the entire government, the change isn’t going to happen any faster.
cs
August 9
12:37 am
I’m Muslim and I read gay fiction. I must be a murderer too. I understand your POV Teddy and I am disgusted by what these countries do. But I was born and raised in the U.K. My parents did not raise me to believe in hate/murder of gays than you very much.
And FYI my religion is not a “bad head cold”. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean you have any right to make it out to be this pesky thing that annoys you.
If you’re outraged of the people being killed because of their homosexuality. Allow that disgust to be spread to all types of horrifying killings. Because last time I heard, people in America where still getting the shit beat out of them because they were gay. And it is not like a Western country hasn’t seem their own people do something just as horrifying.
So I guess you don’t have any Muslim friends then.
Thank you Emily for your comments and AztecLady. It’s nice to know people don’t think we’re all gay-hating killers.
cs
August 9
12:41 am
I don’t understand this. But as a Muslim, I haven’t seen anyone fall over themselves to pet our feelings. Then again I think that has more to do with the American government. So please if you feel like you’re doing this, don’t think Muslim people demanded you too. It is because your own government decided too for whatever reason.
shirley
August 9
12:53 am
I don’t do this. I show everyone equal respect regardless of race, creed, nationality, sexual persuasion, or taste in clothes. By ‘we’ I meant the American public, and then only in reference to the post AL cited that moved her to make this post.
That post spoke of a book being pulled from release due to worries about physical harm or potential offense. Considering there have been several books published in the US in recent years, which have offended a great many groups, yet have not been banned or censored the fact that this one has been – at least temporarily – only reinforces my opinion that for some reason some Americans think that Muslims should be afforded more care and consideration than other groups. I believe that’s wrong.
And that hasn’t got anything to do with the government.
Teddypig
August 9
1:15 am
Yes, I was being biting and sarcastic and very very real there.
It is hard enough to be gay in this world without the added benefit of all the fine minded religious folks, be they Christian or any of the various flavors of Christianity, telling me that I am the embodiment of sin.
The indisputable facts are that there are 6 Islamic Countries in this world so controlled by religious law that they kill homosexual people which is disgusting. 32 total Islamic Countries that you would be lucky not to go missing and end up in some prison to rot.
I have tried basically ignore it but to me and in my opinion organized religion has done very little to promote tolerance and even less to stop the hatred of it’s followers.
Dorothy Mantooth
August 9
1:59 am
Actually, Azteclady, while I’m sure many of your fellow Catholics can quote those Bible verses, the fact is–at least regarding homosexuality–the Catholic Church’s official policy/statement, as laid out in JP II’s Catechism (1992, I think?) is that homosexuals are BORN, not made, and that being homosexual is NOT a sin. Homosexual behavior (read: homosexual sex) is a sin; homosexuals are by definition people deserving of love and our admiration and aid, because they have been made gay by God and thus face a more difficult road in life as they try to fight that temptation.
I seem to be the only person in the world who’s read this part of the Catechism, but I assure you it is there and I have paraphrased it accurately. It may not be everything we all would wish it to be, but when you remember that the Church’s official stance on intercourse/male ejaculation is that it’s only not a sin when it’s done within the bounds of marriage and for procreative purposes, it rather makes sense that sex which cannot possibly be procreative–which is to say, gay sex, for example–is a sin. In other words, it’s not discrimination against gay people; it’s theological consistancy. I’m not defending or condemning it, just stating a fact. (Seriously, go find a copy of the catechism and look up Homosexuality in the Index, and read the bits indicated. You’ll see.)
Oh, and another Catholic fun fact; performing oral sex on your wife until she comes isn’t a sin either, it’s perfectly acceptable, because the female orgasm–unlike the male orgasm–is not related to procreation. So there is absolutely no reason why it cannot be part of foreplay. Go to it, Catholic boys! 🙂
che
August 9
3:57 am
I respect anyone’s rights to their religious beliefs, to revere their leaders, and to take offense by a book.
However, I am under no obligation to share their beliefs, revere their leaders, or take offense because they are. That seems to be what a few people are advocating in the SB thread. The book offends Muslims, therefore we need to show them respect by not publishing the book, or read it if it’s published. Bull.
Jacqline Roget
August 9
3:57 am
I KNEW there was a reason I became a Catholic. 😉
K. Z. Snow
August 9
4:20 am
I must say this in Teddy’s defense. Hatred of — or, at the very least, scorn for — homosexuals is probably the last remaining, widespread, covertly or overtly sanctioned prejudice throughout the world. It cuts across religious, national, social, and ethnic lines. Most people still don’t consider it un-PC to ridicule “fags” (comedians sure as shit don’t), and both verbal bashing and physical bashing remain all too common.
If any minority group ever deserved to have a bone up its collective ass, gays do. Homophobia is definitely a multicultural stain on humanity.
BTW, if you want to read some really scary stuff, google Christian Reconstructionism. The people who adhere to this gonzo “Dominion Theology” would like to remold the U.S. (and, preferably, the whole world) using the Old Testament as a blueprint. Non-hetero’s, adulterers, juvenile delinquents, “heretics”, and more–in other words, a good portion of the human race–would be executed according to the laws of this proposed regime.
kirsten saell
August 9
8:20 am
People like to say that the west has laws based on the bible, but that is really no longer the case. In democratic countries, most things that used to be illegal solely because they were “abhorrent to god” are now no longer illegal. Our entire justice system is now geared toward balancing the rights of individuals with the safety and well-being of society, and is largely based on a “do unto others” dynamic.
I think this is the only sane way to make law. To behead or imprison someone for the sole reason that his private and consesual behavior is offensive to god is I think one of the worst injustices on the planet.
Totally, totally agreed. But unfortunately, those people are by nature not the type to make a scene, to demand attention, to stand up against the bullies of the world.
You have one nutbar with a machine gun and twenty regular people. The nutbar shoots a bunch of them at random. 9 times out of 10, none of those people will act to stop him, because they’re just regular people, their instinct is to duck and cover and hope he goes away. They don’t have the same willingness to act, to do violence, to die as the nutbar does. So I have very little hope that the silent majority is destined to be anything other than silent, especially when the nutbars are screaming and waving guns.
Yeah, and the American government prosecutes and imprisons the people who do shit like that. They aren’t in the business of doing it themselves.
No, I don’t think all Muslims think gays should die. But you can’t argue that “all Muslims will surely be offended by this book because of the teachings of their religion” without extrapolating “all Muslims think gays should be put to death because of the teachings of their religion”. Or in other words, I don’t believe all Muslims will find mortal offense in this book. Some will be outraged perhaps to the point of volence, some won’t care at all, and most will fall in between. But the ones we will always hear are the ones who feel most strongly about the issue.
And the voices calling most loudly for “understanding” and “avoiding needless offense” at SBTB seem to be the ones most clearly painting all Muslims with one brush. And part of me wonders why some Muslim hasn’t called them on their attitude of “we must be extra careful not to offend the Muslims, because they are too ignorant to know the difference between intentional and unintentional offense.”
Mrs Giggles
August 9
8:29 am
Buddhism is one of the few, if not the only, widely-practiced organized religions that is tolerant of homosexuality, viewing it as an aspect of human sexuality that should be practiced in moderation. Islam and Christianity don’t have the sole monopoly in advocating violence against gays.
Malaysia is a democracy. Syariah laws apply only to Muslims, and only in matters like marriage, death, and other similarly related matters. When it comes to crime and punishment, we imprison people or put them up for capital punishment. Nobody gets stoned to death or has their hands chopped off. Ditto Indonesia.
Moderate Muslim countries elsewhere in the world don’t necessarily adhere to the stereotypes of the barbaric fundamentalist Muslim sheikh country – in fact, many Muslims view the act of stoning and even the cutting off of one’s hand for stealing as barbaric despite the fact that the old syariah laws advocate such punishments.
For all my time living in Malaysia, the only punishment I’ve heard applied to gays was a fine, and ironically enough, that happened in Singapore, a secular country, where the practices of sodomy and oral sex were considered illegal.
What I’m trying to say is that despite the atrocities carried out by a few and despite what the syariah laws say, most Muslims do not necessarily agree with such acts.
Just because the religion advocates violence and discrimination towards some select group of people doesn’t mean that all its followers are evil people.
Teddypig
August 9
2:05 pm
You are right Mrs. Giggles there are more moderate and democratic Islamic Countries but they are in the extreme minority in the big picture. Turkey being another one.
That is one of my problems though. If there are all these hidden moderate Muslims out there being peace loving folks who believe in Basic Human Rights etc etc why are the majority of these Islamic Countries around 32 in all following blood thirsty Fundamentalist Islamic Law?
Oh and Google Turkish Oil Wrestling sometime.
Smokin HAWT!
AztecLady
August 9
6:42 pm
I obviously can’t express myself clearly, but I’m nothing if not
bullheaded… stubborn…persistent, so here goes again:The post is not about the book discussion, but about my uncalled for reaction. I consider myself to be pretty tolerant (for an ignorant Catholic *nodding to Dorothy*), yet my very first comment in the original thread at the SBTBs was intolerant and insulting to the many many millions of Muslims who may consider the books contents offensive but would not call for it not to be published or written.
In other words, that first comment I made proved that my gut reaction was to paint all Muslims as reactionaries, which would be the same as painting all Christians as followers of Fred Phelps brand of religion.
Hence my apology, and hence my plea to those moderate human beings of all religious affiliations to go against the grain and speak up.
No, I don’t think that my post will mobilize millions, but one has to start somewhere.
shirley
August 9
9:40 pm
I did miss your comment, then again, I don’t know what you posted under. But honestly, unless you said something like ‘Muslims are idiots’, I can’t imagine you were insulting. A time or two, you may have hedged into insulting, but you always balance yourself.
If all you said was you understand they may be insulted, and can sympathize, but the book should still be published – in the US, isn’t intolerant.
Like I said, Mein Kampf insults and offends many, many people. You can still go to the bookstore and buy a copy of it in the States.
I think this is a great ideal. Sadly, most moderates I know aren’t vocal. They don’t like conflict or limelight. They are happily middle of the road but they keep their complaints to themselves. It sure would be nice if we could get some of the passionate on either side of the spectrum to embrace the middle passage because then, we might actually start to drown out the extremists.
Mad
August 11
11:26 pm
I’m a Muslim. Born and raised in the US but my parents were from Jerusalem. Still have various family members there and also in Jordan.
I could just kiss you, Mrs. Giggles. Being Muslim does not equal to being evil.
Teddypig
August 12
12:06 am
Religion: If this word offends you, welcome to the world of sane and realistic critical thought. More harm has been done to the collective human psyche by religion than by all the fucking and cock sucking since the dawn of time. By the way, many religious people (including the ordained) fuck and suck each other’s cocks all the time.
— George Carlin
I’ll miss him.