AztecLady Speaks: Plagiarism, Again…
Friday, August 15, 2008Posted in: Azteclady Speaks, Cassie Edwards, Plagiarism
Tags:Cassie Edwards, Nora Roberts
The Cassie Edwards plagiarism scandal broke in early January. (Neat centralized pdf. document from the SmartBitches here)
Dear Author and SmartBitches—and a number of authors—wrote about it during the following weeks.
I posted about it here in March (including a number of links to previous discussions)
Signet finally dumped Cassie Edwards over it in mid April, which reignited some discussion.
By late May people, including well known authors of the stature of Lori Foster, were still wondering why there was public discussion of something that, in their opinion, was “between Ms Edwards and the parties involved”
In late July—well over six months later—there was a panel on plagiarism at the RWA National Conference in San Francisco, with Nora Roberts as one of the panelists. Conference room seating 200, about a quarter of the seats filled.
May I ask, what the hell?
Because even if you are an author who thought you knew all there is to know about plagiarism, copyright infringement, proper attribution, etc., etc., ad nauseam, there was still a Q&A portion of the panel where solutions could be proposed, and where specific instances could be brought to light and examined.
My inner cynic is starting to wonder if indeed many writers don’t want open discussion of this because of dirty linen in their own closets.
Rosie
August 15
9:12 am
I’m not a writer, but I was very interested in this panel and had hoped to attend. However, being the last day of the conference and at 11 a.m. it was a bad time for many people. Last minute panels, and many people who were leaving Saturday morning. I missed because of scheduling conflicts and have to say was puzzled by the scheduling. I attended NR’s Q&A earlier in the week and it was packed. I think if the plagiarism panel been done in the Q&A time slot it would have been as well attended. Just sayin’.
Emmy
August 15
10:40 am
Plagiarism and file sharing are two topics that have been beaten into the ground the last few months in various forums. Besides the multiple factors already brought up by other people (ie: early Saturday morning after an all night party, business lunches or other engagements scheduled at same time, early head start home, etc), there may just be some topic fatigue out there. People have already discussed this ad nauseum lately.
It’s one heck of an assumption to say that because people didn’t show up in droves to discuss the topic this one time, they must have committed the crime themselves.
Shiloh Walker
August 15
12:56 pm
I don’t think it’s dirty linen.
The schedules at conventions tend to be mad chaos and writers tend to figure out early which ones they need to hit, what they have to be doing, etc. The timing of this one, I’ve heard, wasn’t the most conducive, and I also bet a lot of people figured it would be even less than standing room only since it was NR heading it.
Then there’s also the issue of people thinking, Yeah, it’s wrong, I don’t do it, what else do I need to know about it?
That’s my take on it.
Jaci Burton
August 15
2:49 pm
I wasn’t there so no clue why it wasn’t better attended. Could be the day and time. Lots of publisher parties on Friday night, so lots of tired people Sat morning. Plus there are always meetings with agents and editors and competing workshops.
I know they inserted this workshop late in the game so that’s no doubt why they didn’t get a great day and time for it.
And there are always people who think they understand plagiarism so don’t need to attend. Or that they don’t plagiarize so it doesn’t affect them. But it affects all of us.
I hope they put it on next year. I’m so there. I don’t think we can be enlightened nearly enough on this topic.
Gennita Low
August 15
2:55 pm
Saturdays, being half-day and the last one for the conference, are traditionally bad for workshops. Most authors have their group signings for their houses (last day giveaways) and then go off to lunch with their editors. Some attendees take Saturday off because it’s the last day of conference and they want to sightsee before preparations for the big Gala in the evening. Others, like me, have appointments with their editors that couldn’t be cancelled. I didn’t realize my appointment and the workshop clashed till I checked the schedule in the morning, which was, by then, too late.
Sometimes there just isn’t enough time for everything during RWA. There are conference tapes made of the workshops and many attendees, especially authors, buy them because of the above reasons. I look forward to listening to Jane’s workshop if it’s available.
veinglory
August 15
3:21 pm
As I said at DearAuthor, people who don’t care about plagiarism logically wouldn’t go, and most of those who do care about it would not learn anything new at that panel and so probably wouldn’t go. So what exactly was their audience meant to be? To be metaphorical: if you don’t get a readership what is most likely to be at fault, the readership, or the book?
I do not accept at all that their inability to get a full house for an morning session on plagiarism 101 is a litmus test of the profession’s interest. I know what plagiarism is, what I don’t see is anyone coming up with something I can do about it, other than what I am already doing.
Dee Tenorio
August 15
3:46 pm
Gotta admit, I find it a huge jump from “people didn’t go” to “they must not want to get caught”. And other authors might have wanted the furor to die down not because they find Edwards particularly innocent, but maybe they’re turned off by public flogging. She screwed up, no question. But, much as I dislike plagiarism, once it was revealed, the details of what should happen next were between Edwards, The publisher and ultimately, the people she plagiarized.
I probably wouldn’t have attended either, simply because I’ve read so many definitions and lessons this year on how to NOT plagiarize your research that the base was pretty much covered. And yeah, I’d have been half-dead as I usually am on Saturdays at Nats.
Could you explain your conclusion, AL?
Dee
Jody Wallace
August 15
4:13 pm
I hear a nice dark chocolate can soothe the savage (hee!) inner cynic.
Lori Foster
August 15
6:00 pm
I wasn’t at National, but if I had been, I wouldn’t have attended the panel. Not because it offends me in any way, and not because I have dirty linen, as you suggest, in my closet. To anyone who did attend, or had an interest, I think that’s fine. It’s wonderful that RWA offers such a wide variety of topics that can appeal to so many different people.
Everyone should be able to do what is best for her without someone suddenly claiming that if they aren’t in agreement with you, they must be hiding dirty secrets.
Lori
Lori Foster
August 15
6:03 pm
Dee, my sentiments exactly. I’m never been a fan of the rioting hoarde. Public floggings are very unappealing to me.
Lori
AztecLady
August 15
6:27 pm
Ms Foster, I know I don’t always express myself with the greatest clarity, so I understand why you may have thought that the dirty linen bit was aimed at you. Please do allow me to make clear that it wasn’t.
It still saddens me that a panel on such an important topic was so poorly attended. Yes, I understand that its scheduling created conflict for many attendees, since it was added to the program pretty much at the last minute.
However, to all of those clamoring for the ‘hordes’ to stop ‘flogging’ the poor plagiarist publicly, let me put it this way:
Every reader who buys a Cassie Edwards or Janet Dailey book is, in effect, buying stolen property. Most of them don’t know about the plagiarism accusations, let alone the proof of the same, so they are unwittingly buying stolen goods.
The fact that the cops won’t come ’round their houses to recover said goods doesn’t make them any less stolen.
But these readers–consumers, buyers–don’t know that, and as long as there are calls for “leaving the parties involved to handle the matter privately”, they will continue to buy stolen goods.
If instead of the thievery of intellectual property we were talking fund embezzlement, I don’t think people would be so willing to let the parties involved handle the matter privately. More than likely, news outlets would be called.
Again, call me a cynic, but isn’t it likely that if the consequences to the perpetrator are–if that much–a slap on the wrist, she’ll do it again, sure that she’ll either get away with it, or that the potential cost is definitely worth the profit?
Then there’s the whole “but I know what plagiarism it and what isn’t!” Given what I read online, from both readers, and published writers, I’m not so sure they all do know the difference between using research and cut’n’paste. Of course, I may be dead wrong.
But the cynic in me wonders if there isn’t a certain level of laziness from *some* quarters–something along the lines of “it’s worked fine so far, changing it would mean working harder, why should I?”
And lastly…
I may be preaching to the choir to keep on hammering at the poor glue which used to be a horse, on top of blowing my own horn, but if one person here (writer or reader) becomes aware of the problem, and shares that knowledge with someone else, I feel I’ve done something positive.
Lori Foster
August 15
6:34 pm
Thank you clarifying. I appreciate that.
I’m only guessing here – but I imagine the panel was attended largely by people who want to gleen anything Nora has to say. 🙂
I might have attended for just that reason.
Those that missed it would have a variety of reasons. It’s been my experience that most attendees at National are very newly published, or as yet unpublished authors, and I could easily see them concentrating on workshops that would give insight into getting published, such as editor and agent panels, and spotlights on publishers.
Established authors are usually swamped visiting with their agent, editors, publishers, publicists, web designers, etc… and then when they have a spare minute, they want to see those long distance friends.
It’s likely not so much a matter of apathy.
Lori
Karen Scott
August 15
7:16 pm
Hey AL, are you rabble rousing again?
Jolly good, carry on. *g*
Shiloh Walker
August 15
9:41 pm
Not to change the subject or anything…but this sounds so totally Karen. 😉
Michelle
August 16
1:22 am
It really irritated me to see the authors that defended Cassie Edwards and claim not to understand the big deal about plagerism. I wonder how they would react if it was their own work which was stolen.
Nora Roberts
August 16
2:23 am
I object to the term public flogging when describing the commentary and discussion about plagiarism, and the Edwards case. This was the same sort of attitude aimed at me when I sued Janet Dailey over infringing my work. And exactly the sort of attitude discussed in the panel.
`Public flogging’ hasn’t stopped Kensington from publishing both Dailey and Edwards.
This, well, she made a mistake but is just the sort of outlook I feel needs to be adjusted–and which Jane spoke about in the panel as well–in the community.
Until we make it a big deal, it won’t be a big deal. Until we stop deflecting the blame onto the victim and/or those who speak out against plagiarism, and yes, the plagiarist directly, the action will continue to have little consequence.
I was accused, by fellow authors and some readers, of embarrassing Dailey, of not being compassionate, of making a big deal out of little to nothing. My work was stolen, yet I took and continue to take considerable heat for standing up for myself and my work.
That’s just wrong, and it’s something that needs to be addressed and discussed and brought to light again and again. Panels such as the one in SF, and hopefully ones in the future educate, enlighten and discuss–and seek solutions.
That’s pretty damn important business.
Roslyn Holcomb
August 16
3:53 am
Had I somehow hit the lottery and been able to attend RWA this year, I don’t know that I would’ve gone to this workshop either. I might have to show my support for those who are trying to do something about it. As I said on the DA blog; I know what plagiarism is, I know it’s wrong, I won’t do it, and I’ll hunt down anyone who does it to me like a rabid dog.
What it comes down to me is doing something to eradicate this notion that it’s ‘harmless,’ or ‘a personal matter.’ Unless and until the penalties for plagiarizing outweigh the benefit plagiarism will continue.
K. Z. Snow
August 16
4:05 am
I think Roslyn nailed it. Most authors believe they already know what plagiarism is, know it’s the ultimate writing taboo, and try their damnedest to avoid it.
Sara Dennis
August 16
4:14 am
I was at National. I was at the panel, despite the fact that it was on Saturday, there were other things that I could have attended, and I was sick as a dog. But I was there. Why? Because I felt it was important to be there and show my support for the notion that this is an important issue and deserves discussion and acknowledgment.
For people who say that no one is proposing new solutions to what to do about it, I say: Of course not. Because there are so many people who are “tired of discussing it” (I’m paraphrasing and not pointing fingers at any one individual), don’t think it should be discussed in public and don’t do it so figure that as long as it doesn’t touch them, they don’t have a right or a need to speak up. It’s really hard to kick around new ideas or new points of view if nobody’s talking.
AztecLady
August 16
4:24 am
I wonder if, for those authors who believe they know everything they need to know *not* to plagiarize, would be interesting to have a panel about what to do if you become aware you have been plagiarized?
Talking with my s.o. over this I mentioned something about priorities–how much of a priority is educating oneself and others about this?
Another bad metaphor: should we worry about keeping our neighborhood and house safe only after we’ve been burglarized? or should we organize–and participate in–the neighborhood watch whether we’ve been victimized or not?
Aye, aye, Cap’n!
Shiloh, she has completely corrupted my innocent, trusting, Pollyanna disposition.
😉
Dee Tenorio
August 16
4:44 am
Boy, go out of town for the day and come back to very unhappy people.
So, I’ll go ahead and define my use of the words “public flogging”.
Do I think Plagiarism is wrong? Yes. Do I think it’s a light matter? No. Do I think that anyone who does plagiarize doesn’t deserve to be punished? Of course not. If someone were to steal from me I’d be outraged and demand recompense, as is my right. And no, I would not have pity for the criminal.
What I meant, simply, was that in the case of Edwards (and probably Dailey) is that Edwards was revealed. Quite publicly. Her publisher has taken steps to stop working with her. I’m sure legal action is being taken on several fronts. Justice is being done, as it rightly should and I truly wish success for anyone who was robbed.
The public flogging portion was in reference to some places bringing it up just to rehash the same finger pointing that had already been done and didn’t necessarily add any new information. This, I feel, does more to desensitize people to the situation and feeds a need for sensationalism that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
AL’s explanation of informing non-advised readers that they’re buying stolen goods does make sense. And the concept of a forum on what TO DO should any of us get plagiarized is something I’d most avidly attend. Hell, I’d pay to read that online. (I should note, if it’s not clear, I did not attend Nationals this year, much as I’d have liked to.)
I was not, in any way, claiming that Edwards or Dailey was a victim or that anyone they committed this crime against doesn’t have reason to be angry. Only that for some, this is a real, serious issue. For others, it’s fodder and I had no wish to be part of that.
Probably doesn’t make a lot of sense, but it’s how I feel. No offense intended.
Dee
Karen Scott
August 16
9:33 am
I think Sara hit the nail on the head. Some authors do actually believe that this topic has been flogged to death, and just want to move on, because after all, it hasn’t affected them.
The lack of attendees at the plagiarism panel has more to do with authors being apathetic to this subject than anything else. You can give as many excuses as you like, e.g. seeing editors, it was a bad time to schedule a panel, blah blah effing blah, but the fact is, it just wasn’t a priority for some of you, because clearly, if it had been, you would have been there. It really is as simple as that.
Emmy’s post serves as a perfect example of how I believe many authors feel about the subject:
Let me just list the excuses that have been given so far, on why authors may not have attended the panel:
1. The panel was scheduled on a saturday, which was bad timing since most people had been partying hard all night.
So, if these same people had had appointments with their editors, they wouldn’t have shown up to those either?
2. Business lunches scheduled at the same time
Now this excuse is fair enough, because as a writer, your personal shit has to come first. But, here’s the thing, although I can’t quite remember how many authors attended the event, it seems incredible to me that the majority of them were attending business lunches exactly at the same time as the panel was scheduled. That really is crummy timing aint it?
3. People who think they know enough about plagiarism already.
I think this links back nicely with topic fatigue, and no, don’t bother denying it, because you know deep in your heart it’s true.
4. Not enough time to fit everything in.
It’s all about priorities, and quite clearly, the panel wasn’t high up on most authors’ lists of must-dos. No point denying it, because if you didn’t go, it simply wasn’t a priority. I’m not saying that that makes you bad, it just means you had better things to do with your time. It’s ok to admit that, after all, your time, your decision to make.
5. The people who think, yeah, it’s wrong, I don’t do it, so I don’t need to be there, along with the ‘nothing new to be learnt here’ crowd.
Priorities again. Had you been affected, e.g. somebody making money off your hard work, you’d have probably made the effort to be there, even though you know first hand what plagiarism is.
That’s the way these things work in life. The people who are most militant about certain issues, are usually the ones who have been affected. For instance, I have no doubt in my mind that the man who started up the group, Father’s For Justice (British group) wouldn’t have done so, had he not been affected personally.
6. Nobody’s coming up with any new solutions, so why should I attend
For me this is one of the most terrible excuses of the lot. If enough people aren’t interested in discussing the topic in the first place, I daresay a solution will be pretty hard to come by. I think this is basically linked to priorities. It’s not that you don’t care. It’s that, you feel as if there are other things you could be doing. AKA, you don’t care enough.
Enough is the keyword here. There’s no point denying it either, because I’m pretty sure this isn’t a topic that keeps most of you awake at night. I may be wrong of course, if there’s anybody out there who has nightmares about being chased by books with knives, please feel free to raise your hands.
OK, I think that was about it. If I missed anybody out, don’t take it personally.
One thing that disgusted me the most over the whole Cassie Edwards fest, was the way so many authors tried to shoot the messengers. Those people said things like yeah, plagiarism is bad, blah, blah, blah, but why do you have to treat one of our most revered authors this way?
I could say I was surprised by that stance, but the truth is, it’s kind of what I expect from the industry.
Some people also went on and on about her being a poor old woman, like that was a good enough reason to have let her off the hook.
With attitudes like that still about, (and from some of our genres most esteemed authors too) this topic should be debated and discussed to the nth degree, until we get to a level where plagiarism is simply not tolerated.
You can all bluster, and act all offended, but if you were at the RWA and you knew about the panel, but didn’t attend, for any of the afore-mentioned reasons (Except Reason no. 2 perhaps) it simply wasn’t important enough to you. Period.
Karen Scott
August 16
9:35 am
You guys are lucky, the above nearly became another plagiarism post.
Nora Roberts
August 16
12:58 pm
I repeat: Both Dailey and Edwards are still being published. Harper continued to publish Dailey through the term of contract, then she was picked up by Kensington where she continues to release. While Signet and Edwards parted ways, she was and is continued to be published by Kensington.
These are only two of the more well-known examples.
As the Q&A session had to be cut off for time, I can’t imagine there wasn’t anything new to be learned.
Shiloh Walker
August 16
1:25 pm
Dee, there definitely are places where it became more fun for some of the people to squeal and laugh and chuckle and no, there’s nothing helpful, positive and even anything worthy of attention there. The best you can do is just not hang around when you see those.
Karen, the thing is with timing and stuff on Saturdays, a lot of people leave early-if they’ve already booked their flights…well, frankly even though discussing plagiarism is something I consider very important and definitely on my list of priorities…eh, I’m cheap and I’m not going to pay the fee to reschedule my flight.
Dinners with editors/business lunches, a lot of those are typical scheduled on the day that seems to be the least busy for the particular convention, made on the day when it seems most of the people will be able to attend. As far as RWA goes, it sounds like Saturday generally IS the least busy day so that is probably when the publishers/agents/editors try to schedule their group things. Of course, I haven’t hit RWA so I can’t speak with authority on that, but at RT and the few small group things I’ve done, that’s tends to be the norm.
The been there, discussed it, nothing’s solved, why bother mindset is one I can understand to some extent. There are certain issues I get very tired of discussing, certain things I get very tired of doing. But as Aztec said,
I wasn’t at nationals but if I had been, this is a panel I would have wanted to attend. I haven’t been directly affected by it, but the solutions to these kind of issues are going to be discussion, because it educates people.
J.C. Wilder
August 16
6:07 pm
Well said, Nora.
sallahdog
August 16
7:04 pm
“I think Sara hit the nail on the head. Some authors do actually believe that this topic has been flogged to death, and just want to move on, because after all, it hasn’t affected them.”
This happens in every walk of life or profession… People don’t get their cajones in an uproar until it affects them personally… Then they become instant converts and are outraged that others don’t care about “their” now tragedy…
As a reader, I really hate the notion of blaming the messenger, that has been lobbed at DA, SBs and even La Nora.. Fascinating the moral highground that people claim until its THEIR work that gets stolen, or royalties that got ripped off, or epress that goes out of business leaving their rights in doubt… fairly frickin hypocritical, if you ask me…though rarely anyone does…
AztecLady
August 16
7:19 pm
The weird thing is that there are plenty of plagiarized authors out there. Wasn’t it Julie Leto who said that three out of four writer over at PlotMonkeys has been plagiarized? Odds are, more published writers are going to face this at some point than those who are not.
Wouldn’t trying to prevent it rather than facing the consequences make more sense than the “I’m tired of this topic!” attitude?
Lynne Connolly
August 16
10:58 pm
I think the last minute rush is probably the reason.
At Romantic Times, there was a similar panel, with, amongst others, Roberta Gelis and Bertrice Small. It, too, was arranged at the last minute, in response to requests from authors and the panellists had really done their homework. One of the best panels I attended all week.
The room was packed out.
So maybe it was a schedule thing, that it clashed with other events. I know I had to make a few decisions about what to attend, but I’m really glad I attended the panel.
Robin
August 17
3:33 am
I guess my feeling is that these cases should never make it to the public to begin with — that they should be nipped at the editorial/publishing stages or, ideally, in an author’s decision NOT to plagiarize. For me, then, what others wince at as a “public flogging,” I see as a failure elsewhere, a role delegated to the reader that the reader should not be responsible for filling. But if readers *can* and *do* find these instances of plagiarism, why should they not speak up? And why can’t editors or publishers have found them? And why isn’t there more embarrassment that these cases even have to end up as reader discoveries, especially cases as extensive as the Edwards situation?
I also have to disagree with the assertion that the public has no right to know what happens to publicly discovered plagiarizers, in part because it seems to me that the ‘behind closed doors’ aspect of plagiarism is one of the things that keeps it an apparent low priority. If there is no real community ethic around plagiarism, no strong, united stand among authors, editors, and publishers against plagiarism, what is the message that authors AND readers are getting about intellectual honesty in fiction? I can tell you that the way Kensington crowed about acquiring Dailey has affected my view of them (ditto with Dorchester for continuing to publish Edwards). As a writer myself (and a teacher of writing), I know very personally how important and potentially devastating intellectual theft can be for both victims and plagiarizers. It is true that one can never affirmatively know how many potential plagiarizers a strong anti-plagiarism ethic within a writing community deters. But hey, most people don’t leave their valuables on the lawn, figuring that people know better than to steal, right?
In the Edwards case, readers made the discoveries across numerous books and through relatively simple (and unplanned) means. As a reader, I absolutely think that having a public announcement that Signet dropped Edwards was both valid and important, because it was an affirmation that at least one publisher is taking the issue seriously, albeit a bit late. As a reader, that builds my confidence that when I buy a Penguin published book I can expect some level of intellectual honesty and publisher responsibility in assuring that I am purchasing original material. I do not believe it is out of line for me to expect that.
If people were turned off by some of the harsher and crueler comments made during the Edwards fiasco, I certainly understand that. But it seemed to me more of a baby/bathwater situation, because of the incredible hostility toward readers who discovered what, IMO, should have been discouraged, deterred, and/or uncovered a long, long time ago.
Karen Scott
August 17
1:44 pm
I’ve noticed that as far as Romanceland is concerned, the only people who seem to be addressing the important issues, are the readers, so count me in as somebody who isn’t surprised that the professionals aren’t the ones making these discoveries.
Nora Roberts
August 18
12:27 pm
Let me address one reason it’s much harder for an editor to spot plagiarism than readers. Not that they never do, but that it happens, publicly at least, less often.
Editors are so busy doing their jobs most of them don’t read as widely, for pleasure, as many readers do.
I was plagiarized–extensively–in a lesbian romance novel. It’s very likely the editors and publishers of the infringed material hadn’t read my book–or maybe had read it years earlier when it was published and didn’t see the stolen scenes. There was a very large gap in years between my original work and the copy. I don’t expect an editor to remember.
Again, a reader discovered it, having read the two books nearly back-to-back.
~I will say, in this case, the publishers of the offending book acted quickly and properly when informed, and the entire business was handled without complication.
If there is no real community ethic around plagiarism, no strong, united stand among authors, editors, and publishers against plagiarism, what is the message that authors AND readers are getting about intellectual honesty in fiction?~
I couldn’t agree more strongly.