A while back I posted about how I try to be cautious when I post something, either here or as a comment somewhere else, because it’s easy to be misunderstood online. After all, there is no body language, no fluctuation in tone, and rarely is there previous knowledge of communication style to aid the reader in interpreting my words.Therefore, I go to some pains in trying to be really clear as to what I mean.
Evidently I need to do more.
Ms Somerville, when talking about vocal authors going off on rants all over the web, I was most certainly not referring to you. I was referring to authors who go off on readers who dare either not like or review their books, but since I’m all about not giving free publicity to idiots, I didn’t want to name names nor link to posts.
Frankly, you weren’t on my radar at all.
(Then again, I could just follow my lovely s.o.’s advice, shrug and say, “if the crazy fits, wear it”)
kirsten saell
October 4
3:28 pm
Authors should be held to a slightly higher standard when it comes to expressing themselves. If you can’t construct a coherent, rational argument that accomplishes what you want–sway people to your side of an issue and convince dissenters to reconsider their position–even when you’re mad, what does that say about your abilities as a writer?
AztecLady
October 4
4:14 pm
*shocked gasp* Oh dear me! *clutching pearls* This cannot be… *horrified whisper* I have been called–by that paragon of social graces, Ms Ann Somerville, no less!–unmannerly! *back of hand to forehead* What am I going to do? *swaying* I don’t think I can bear it! *faint*
(I blame the use of the word “irony” up-thread)
And with that out of my system…
Ms Somerville, you are tired of being told that your style of communication is abrasive to many readers, me included. I’m tired of being told that I cannot consider your style of communication abrasive, and say so.
And the funny thing is, while I can (and have) disagree with how Karen expresses her views, very rarely does her tone comes across (to me) as abrasive–while yours rarely comes across as anything but (again, to me).
Fair? No.
But a fact nonetheless.
(And it is immaterial that quite often I agree with the message buried in the vitriol.)
Robin
October 4
4:37 pm
And it really is a *to me* standard, IMO.
I do think that Ann is sometimes — Cassandra-like — scapegoated, but more importantly, I think we need to accept that these standards of acceptable presentation are largely personal. That doesn’t mean I don’t think people should not defend and debate and negotiate their own standards; in fact, I think that’s critical, because it’s in these discussions that perhaps we all gain a little more understanding of some “other side.” But in the end, all we can really control is our own expression, and IMO it’s quite easy to underestimate the power and the freedom in that.
Karen Scott
October 4
5:02 pm
And I think that Ann herself makes it easy for others to use her as a scapegoat.
One thing I thing I noticed about the whole Goldberg episode over at DA, (an indeed I’ve noticed it a couple of times when Ann gets into an argument with someone) was how careful people started being when addressing her. There was a lot of tip-toeing around, as people tried to prove that they weren’t piling in on her. What I saw was that people started to have more of a dig at Goldberg and others, because they felt more comfortable in doing so, and they knew he and others could take it.
One regular blogger was taken to task over what was basically a tame comment about Ann, (in my opinion of course) whilst a lot of the vitriolic things that Ann had written previously were largely ignored. This is not the first time that’s happened.
Is that not hypocritical?
None of us here are hypocrisy-free. God knows, I’m not. We all at some point or another have engaged in behaviour that we may have previously decried in the past.
Karen Scott
October 4
5:13 pm
With regards to the personalisation issue;
The only way to have discussions where people’s personal standards don’t get in the way is to have robots engaging in said discussion. What I know is that there will mostly always be a majority consensus going one way or the other, due to a lot of people, sharing similar values, especially here in Romanceland.
Robin
October 4
5:42 pm
Well, yeah — we’re all part of our own (perceived) victimization to greater or lesser degree.
No doubt we’re all going to get caught in our own double standards at some point, and to someone else, we’re all going to be seen as hypocritical sometime. You can’t be outspoken in any venue without that charge attaching at some point. And we all have the choice about whose opinion on that matter to take to heart.
Kat
October 4
8:36 pm
Uh, yeah. Because she never talks to people like they’re human beings. She has this fundamental inability to engage in a conversation without yanking the tail clean off anyone with an opposing view. Anyone who doesn’t agree with Ann, regardless of how they phrase their disagreement, is a “small minded bitch” for not fully appreciating her genius.
Because the community is fairly small and people frequent the same blogs, we’ve all seen it, and most of us have gotten to the point where we are incredibly sick of her bile. I think people would be more tolerant if she occasionally had something nice to say, but her universe is bitter, angry, and venomous. And yet she doesn’t understand why there is this backlash against her.
I’ve personally gotten to the point where I actually pity her. Who lives like that??
Ann Somerville
October 4
10:33 pm
Karen, I’m really sad that you think it’s okay to attack people over their style of interaction. I’m disappointed you’re following Kirsten’s hypocritical line about Goldberg’s homophobia. No one made him come out with those wordss – I might be utterly amazing, but I don’t have the superpower of turning someone into a bigot.
While you’re all sitting in judgment on me – and Kirsten, that include authors like you and Shiloh – you might want to think about the fact that people do likewise to you. Kirsten, Shiloh, I don’t know how you think it reflects well on you to be banging your anti-Ann Somerville drum, or to be such hypocrites while you do it. It’s not gone unnoticed.
Kat, I don’t want your pity. I want nothing from people like you at all. I would never sink as low as you have, not to just quietly not buy someone’s books because of a personal dislike, but to actively try and derail someone’s career by organising a boycott. For what? The crime of not being like you? There was nothing mild about your comment, or what you say now – and you are acting out of some vendetta that I can’t begin to fathom. You don’t know me, you know nothing about me, but you’ve worked up this powerful hate for a stranger. I think that’s sad.
You are all demonstrating exactly what my post was about. Holding authors to a higher standard so you can carry merrily on doing exactly as you please? This is precisely what I said – using your power to silence authors, silence critics, silence modes of expression you don’t approve of.
What harm do I do by the way I express myself? Am I deceiving people? Defrauding them? Do I steal other people’s work? Do I threaten them and their family? Do I try to destroy someone’s sales? No. I just make some people uncomfortable (and I would say there are as many people who are either not bothered, or actively enjoy how I speak.) That’s not a crime – unless you’re female.
But for that social sin, you, Shiloh, Kirsten, Kat, AL, and, incredibly, Karen, see that as worth spending all these comments shredding me, raising me up to be the devil, organising boycotts, and asking for my ostracism.
Don’t you think that’s overreacting just a little? As I said above, loudmouthed women are subjected to the same treatment as those who steal, lie, threaten and cheat their customers and business partners. Is that actually proportionate? Is that fair? Does that make you better, kinder people than me?
I have exactly no chance of changing your minds, or being treated fairly here. I just hope you might actually *think* about the issues, instead of kneejerk reacting to mean old Ann. Forget about me. You hate me/hate how I act. I get that. But there’s a bigger problem in the way women interact with each other, and Romancelandia suffers from it severely.
Robin has repeated my own view – “we need to accept that these standards of acceptable presentation are largely personal.” Like her, I believe seeking to impose them, makes it harder to have free expression and vigorous debate. If you only permit the voices that don’t make you, personally, uncomfortable, then you are denying them the chance to contribute to debates, and yourself the chance to hear views which might inform or persuade you. I don’t think any community benefits from that kind of exclusion.
Shayne
October 4
11:12 pm
[sarcasm]Well, now who publishes Ann so we can boycott them?[/sarcasm]
Just in case anybody misses the sarcasm.
Shayne
October 4
11:13 pm
Oh, on second thought. Ann, who publishes you?
If I have the same publishers I’ll have to tear up my contracts with them, you know. And I’ll definitely have to NOT sub to any of your publishers I’m not under as yet.
kirsten saell
October 4
11:24 pm
I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about sometimes. Any man who called me a “small-minded little bitch” would be picking his virtual teeth up off the floor. It’s because you’re a woman that you’ve gotten a bit of a pass from me in the past. Maybe I ought to rethink my position and apply some gender equality.
The problem is that there’s a disconnect between your ability to see that what offends you–homophobic slurs/organizing boycotts (which is not what Kat was doing, at all)–don’t necessarily offend others to the same degree as they do you. And what you think is just freaking peachy–bullying someone in order to silence them (which is what you tried to do with Kat)–does offend other people. And that further, they have just as much right to be offended by you than you have to be offended by them.
I think “the issues” would receive better, more rational examination if “mean old Ann” would simply be less mean. Not less outspoken, just less bitchy.
I’m not trying to silence anyone. But when the message is being utterly lost because of the method of delivery, that’s the messenger’s problem, not everyone else’s.
Ann Somerville
October 4
11:56 pm
Shayne, all the information you want about my publishers is on my website. Act as you feel you must.
Kirsten, I’ve seen you defend racism, and now homophobia. You and I will never see things the same way, and I’m actually not sorry about that. I’ve spent a lot of my life trying to unlearn so many of the attitudes you espouse, and regardless of how vocal or persistent you are in pushing them, and attacking me, I refuse to reacquire them, and I refuse to excuse them in others.
The only point on which I think authors should be held to a higher standard than others is on the issues of social justness and fairness – so if an author like Goldberg, or you, come out with bigoted comments, then I will vigorously express my disgust every time.
If you’ve been holding back because I’m a woman – and I hadn’t noticed you holding back – please, don’t. Despite my reluctance to engage with you out of professional courtesy for a stablemate, you can’t expect to ever receive a free pass over bigotry.
kirsten saell
October 5
12:14 am
Ann, your entire above comment leads me to believe you are capable of making a coherent argument (one that is based as much on your opinion as on the truth, but coherent all the same). It is just this type of discussion that I’m advocating. You’re speaking up. You’re telling me I’m full of shit, but in terms that aren’t going to make people hate you. You’re doing a good job of it, and for once you’re actually making me worry that someone out there might believe what you’re saying about me.
It honestly makes me wonder why you don’t do this all the time.
Shayne
October 5
12:24 am
Ann, *L* My apologies. That was sarcasm at its apparent worst. In reaction to comments about boycotting publishers because of 1-2 certain authors some readers don’t like.
Meh, I’ll leave it to you to have fun. Better to just go back to writing.
ETA.
Karen Scott
October 5
12:34 am
Oh, and because you are so fucking innocent here? Give me a break Ann. Do you honestly think that some of the things you write aren’t deemed to be attacks on other people? Seriously? Are you that deluded?
Acting the victim is something you’re getting into the habit of doing, and quite frankly, it doesn’t suit you.
I don’t give a rat’s arse about Goldberg. He said something he shouldn’t have, end of fucking story. It doesn’t take away from the fact that you were equally venomous, and people let you get away with it.
You must have been overjoyed when he made that fatal faux pas because it gave you a legitimate reason to stay on your soapbox and bash him some more. Unlike you, however, he at least had the good grace to acknowledge that he was out of line. It might not make you feel any better, but he still apologised.
At no point did I see you at least admitting that some of the things you said were just a bit harsh, and that’s ok, but you cannot then berate others for being horrible to you, when you are just as horrible back, if not more so.
You can desperately clutch to your faux outrage over Goldberg’s homophobic comments, as an example of how people in Romancelandia did you wrong, by siding with a homophobic man, just because you’re a woman, but this discussion, right here, right now, isn’t about Lee Goldberg. It’s about the fact that you are unwilling to look at yourself in all of this, and question whether or not, you might have brought this on yourself just a teensy weensy bit.
You seem to go crazy when people take the same tone in addressing you, as you do to them, and I don’t really understand why.
Was what Kat said to you, any different from the way you address others Ann? Truly? Because if you don’t believe that there were any differences, then we might as well end this discussion right now.
You constantly accuse people of trying to shut you up, but that’s exactly what you do.
Kat wasn’t any bitchier to you, than you are to others. She really wasn’t, in fact I daresay her comments were practically saintly in comparison to some of the stuff you come out with. I’m not telling you what you should or shouldn’t say because God knows I have my moments, but if you can’t take the heat, then don’t start the fire.
If I call somebody a fucktard, and they call me a fucktard back, I know that I’m partially to blame for their reaction, because I started it. Plus, what did I expect them to do? Take it lying down? Sure, some do, but occasionally some also don’t.
Being called a mean girl is something that I’m well used to, and quite frankly, I can’t say that I lose any sleep over it. It simply goes with the territory.
Ann, where exactly did I try shredding you? Also, who’s trying to boycott you? Did I miss something here? I never called you the devil, but somehow that’s the conclusion you’ve come to. Others have simply expressed their opinion of you. This is exactly the same thing that you do, and that I do.
They have as much right to say that they don’t care for the way you conduct yourself, as you have to say you don’t like the way they treat you.
That’s the beauty of free speech.
Shiloh Walker
October 5
12:58 am
I’m pretty sure I haven’t asked anybody to boycott you, shred you, and I’m equally sure I’ve never called you a devil.
You’re abrasive. You know it.
You often have valid points. However, because you’re so abrasive, so often, people get to the point to where they tune you out, or just ignore your comments. Or if they read them, have something to add or a differing point of view, many stay quiet, because you too often just pounce on them.
One would think that after the same thing is pointed out time and again, by different people, with a lot of different outlooks and manners, sooner or later, somebody might think…huh, maybe there’s something there.
When you scream your message from the rooftops, the message gets lost for the screams.
Maybe you’re unaware but more often than not, the way you come across is this…my opinion is the only valid one, and if you don’t agree with me, shove it up your ass. And it’s entirely possible that you don’t care that’s how you come across.
It’s sad, though. Because you have a powerful voice…you have interesting points of view. But when your delivery leaves people feeling insulted and less than human, that strong voice and those points of view are lost.
Emmy
October 5
6:33 am
This is organizing a boycott? Telling people to look at the shit you write and letting them decide for themselves if they want to spend money on you?
And all this time I’ve been calling it free will.
Dear self,
You were *wrong*. Is boycott.
Sincerely,
Me.
PS: Shi is my girl crush of the week ?
Elf
October 5
6:54 am
^^ What Shiloh said.
I am speaking from the viewpoint of one that truly has no horse in the race. I’m just an average blog-reader, and seem to inhabit some of the same spaces as you, Ann. I don’t generally comment on blogs, but after the Goldberg disaster on DA and then this thread here, I thought I’d take a moment out of a desire, truly, to try to clarify. (You can shred me if you wish, but I hope you accept this with the good intent with which it is offered.)
I have read a lot of your comments, Ann, and have agreed with a lot of what you’ve said over the past year. You’ve frequently made me laugh (with you, not at you), and you’ve impressed me with your eloquence and passion. I would look for you in discussions to see what take you had on a situation, because it was frequently something I’d think to myself… but I don’t generally comment!
But lately it seems like there’s something gnawing at you, some dark place that you bring with you to your discussions. It’s become hard to read through the anger to get to the point of your debate, and some of your debate has had no point other than to lash out at the people around you. As others have pointed out, your message is getting lost and it’s sometimes painful to read your words.
I sincerely hope that you are OK, and that you regain your focus and verve, perhaps with some of your old humor and wit.
As I said, this is just an opinion from the outside and worth as much time and importance as you wish to give it.
All the best,
-elf
Big Brother | Romancing the Blog | Romance Authors and Readers Who Blog
October 14
11:09 am
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