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For those who were curious about Cindy Cruciger’s post that she deleted, here it is in full with some of the accompanying comments. I’ve edited out some of the more laborious comments, because… well, because they were boring and not really relevant.

Savage Incivility” – tried it once didn’t like it May 2

Filed under Jane Litte, Apropos of nothing, Assholes On the Web, Blog wars, Dirty Politics, Light a match for Karen Scott’s last bridge, Loose Thoughts, Pointless Blathering, The Four Horsemen, Writing by admin | 45 comments (K:There were 45 comments, but just 3 commenters)

Must be soap box day in 3 … 2 … 1.

Pajamas Media is a feather of a conservative website pushing against the leviathon that is the main stream liberal media. There are a few conservative sites I frequent and respect and the writers on those sites know, just as I know, that Media Matters, Huffington Post, Daily Kos, MSNBC and the rest of the savages have absolutely no bottom on the depths to which they will descend in their quest to eradicate conservatism from the United States once and for all.

Tactics have included posting home addresses with google maps to the private homes of conservatives – ordinary working class people – who dared to contribute to a some cause the radical left doesn’t agree with. Rules for Radicals by Saul Alinsky maps out these tactics and more and the hard left follow them to the letter. It’s a viciously beautiful thing to watch, really – from a distance.

But it’s not limited to political agendas. We have it here in Romancelandia and it serves a different master – fame and blog hits. Sites like Dear Author have posted home addresses and phone numbers and argued that it was perfectly legal even as reasonable people tried to point out that it was perfectly wrong. Karen Scott and Smart Bitches Trashy Books routinely take Alinsky’s rule #13: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” and take it even further. They are like a pack of rabid dogs once they draw blood.

I won’t get into details, but the interesting thing is, when I realized it wasn’t just these particular websites doing it and started seeing it on a milder scale on other blogs and then in politics, I wondered: Is it just human nature?

The methods are simple. An idiot can do it if he or she wants.
1. Believe with everthing in you that you have the moral high ground.

2. Pick people who you know wont fight back because the are either unable to or unwilling to fight.

3. Paint a target on them. Isolate them. Make readers believe that they are different from “the rest of us” somehow.

4. Polarize them. Everyone, and I mean everyone, has faults you can exploit. If you can’t find something true, make shit up. Gossip is just an amazing thing. I’ve seen it in action. A casual conversation or comment conflagrates into a wild fire of BS. Fan it. Then pretend to offer a reasonable counter balance just to cover your ass.

But Cindy! Aren’t you being a little mean here? They do a lot of good things for the writing community. They draw attention to important stuff. They provide a place for people to get together to discuss their favorite topics.

I could make the same argument for a whore house, but it’s still a whore house. In defense of whore houses, they don’t hide what they are – well – some do – but for the most part people who visit them are intellectually honest about why they are there. Sallahdog is intellectually honest about why she enjoys Karen Scott and crew, which is one of the reasons why I respect her. As long as she knows they are dishing out poison and the risk, she’s an adult and it’s a free country – so far.

So let’s have some intellectual honesty here to drown out the savage incivility there – be it writing, politics, or whatever. Let’s recognize something for what it is so we can return to being the kind of thinking individuals that lift the human race up to achieve better things. It’s time to take blinders off, examine our beliefs, the groups we identify with and figure out who is trying to manipulate us into being useful idiots and mobs and reconnect with personal responsibility.

The article in Pajamas Media is suggesting that, if we can’t beat them, join them and engage on their level. My advice to my fellow conservatives at Pajamas Media is – don’t do it. Don’t go there. I did it once and it’s just a disgusting experience that serves absolutely no purpose. If we can’t sway people with reason, logic and civility from the nuts on the far left and far right, then let them run riot until they burn themselves out. It’s going to suck. It sucks in Romancelandia right now because more and more people seem to get pulled into the cycle and can’t or won’t break free once they are in the negative feedback loop.

It sucks because there are decent writers who withdraw because they want no part of the madness. It sucks because there are conservatives and liberals who agree on 90% of what’s good about this country and extreme groups have broken us in half. They divide us and conquer. Look around you. There are people very much like you who have shut up completely beause they were sick of being attacked when they said what they believed out loud.

They were not just attacked, they were the blog equivalent of gang raped. There are people who are normal conservatives and liberals who are silent because the lunatics have completely taken over the asylum. They feel it’s not worth it to speak out on topics they feel passionately about. There’s no discussion, just mob rule and irrational hate. They are correct.

Patience. This wild fire will burn itself out. People are not this stupid. They will eventually wake up and realize that they have been manipulated by the main stream media and by websites that are all about the famewhoring and adoring feedback. It may take a few years and bad things will most definitely be happening all around us, but everything runs in cycles.

The information overload age will, I hope, eventually give way to a new age of reason. “Reason” is not “everyone thinking alike and agreeing”. “Reason” is “everyone thinking for themselves”. We have been there before. We will get there again.
So Pajamas Media – don’t do it. Don’t go there. Stick to the facts, keep your heads down, write about what you love and passionately believe is true and leave the attacks and Alinsky tactics to the crazies. It’s ok if not everyone agrees with you.

What you DON’T want is for people to be able to point and say “See. they’re no better than we are.” and have it be true. I tried it once. I know where of I speak. Besides. The Daily Kos’s, Dear Authors and Karen Scotts of the world eat, sleep and drink the badness 24/7. That’s no kind of life for a human being. If you die tomorrow, in that last few minutes you may have left to reflect, do you want to be looking back at a legacy like that? I don’t think so. It won’t bother them at all, but a normal person? Yeah. It will haunt.
Stepping off soap box to garden some. It’s a gorgeous Saturday morning. Sigh. I need to grocery shop first.

Here are some of the comments:

(Please note, ‘Admin’ and ‘Ferfelabat’ are Cindy Cruciger.)

admin May 2
Savage Incivility would make an good book title wouldn’t it? *Pondering*

Mary Stella May 2
The Pajamas commentary lost me by pretending that it’s only the liberals who engage in digging for dirt, accentuating flaws, and dragging people through the mud to discredit them. For every stab at McCain or Palin in the campaign, there was a jab at whether Obama is actually American by birth and a bumper sticker highlighting his middle name in capital letters to connect him with Iraq’s Hussein.

As far as the four points, you listed, I’m darned if I can look at any debate I’ve read in Romancelandia and not (a) either seen both sides employ matching tactics or (b) been able to say to someone on either side, “Come on, can you honestly say that’s the motive? Isn’t is possible that you’re ascribing evil intent where none exists?”. Granted, I haven’t glued myself to every debate, so maybe I’ve missed some, but that’s my take on the ones I’ve read.
I’ve reached the point where I tune out extremism, regardless of the source.

admin May 2
Debates are different from attacks. There are places where people debate topics and it’s not for everyone but for people who love debates it’s great. But there are “relentlessly on the attack”, “wrapped around the personalities of the blog owners” blogs and they exist in a state of hate. People flock there to get their fix.

It’s true in politics on both sides and it’s true in Romancelandia. Matching tactics? You lost me there. Let use Cassie Edwards as an example. What did she do to the bloggers who attacked her to the point where her health was damaged. As far as I know she did not fight back. She did not sink to their level and dig the dirt on those individuals. And there is plenty of dirt.

There is debate or discussion and then there is evisceration because it’s just fun to take apart someone who cannot or will not fight back….

jimmyschmendrix May 2

You know you’re radical right, though, don’t you? Or nearly so. What’s the scale? You’re not as scary right as, say, the neo-nazis or the conservative relgious cults like in Texas. But, you know, I think you, Michelle Malkin and Coulter could throw tea parties and have a fine ole time.
You think most americans agree on 90% of stuff? Hee…okay…
Gun control?
Universal healthcare?
Universal higher education?
Gay marriage?
Death penalty?
Progressive versus flat tax system?
I could go on…

Ferfe May 2

I am not radical right. I am conservative. Here. I’ll lay out what I believe and why in brief:

Abortion. – If more people understood the origin of abortion as it is shoved down our throats today they would cut the knee jerk reactions and ponder what they really believe. As a woman who is missing 1/4th of her family because of the eugenic machinations of a fascist dictator you should know that Margaret Sanger has a storied past under the Eugenic Flag and deep dark secrets you can read about through the magic of google. A disproportionate number of abortions -percentage wise are performed on non-caucasians.

I believe that the closer the US population gets to even numbers of all ethnicities the less we will battle over race, thus this government sponsored holocaust called abortion is an abomination. Women should be allowed to make this decision for themselves but no government money should be spent on abortions anywhere. If we must spend money we should spend it on birth control and counsiling. Personal responsibility is the only way we keep our right to choose.

The more the government interferes in our lives the less freedom we have. Freedom also means freedom to make mistakes and grow through the process. I don’t want to abolish abortion. I want the government to stop encouraging whole sale slaughter because when we end up with national health care people will start thinking it’s better to abort babies that may become a burden to the system rather than give them a shot at life. It’s a messy complex thing, life.

I hate that we have become a nation who deals with the messiness by dumping babies into garbage cans. We need to face and deal with the issues that surround unwanted pregnancies. Rape. Incest. Raging hormones. What have you….

Gun Control – I am against it. License them. Track them. Require gun safety certification. Require proof of gun safe and locks. Other than that? No. Personal responsibility.

Universal Health care – Against it. Against it a lot.

Universal Higher Education – against it. Tax dollars should go to state Universities to offset the costs, but everyone does not have a right to a college degree. …

Gay Marriage – for it. People have a right to get married. Churches have the right not to perform the ceremony. God doesn’t make mistakes. I’ve never bought into the idea that being gay is abnormal. It’s somewhat rare, but not wrong.

Death Penalty – against it. Mostly because it costs too much to kill people. Also becuase it’s too damned easy to make mistakes in our legal system as it exists.

Waterboarding? – for it. Totally down with torture if the circumstances warrant it. I am not willing to die to assuage someones misplaced sense of superiority and bazaar ideals. …

Progressive versus Flat Tax. – Flat tax. In fact we should abolish income taxes and reduce the size of the government.
And now you so we can compare the screaming liberal side of these issues.

jimmyschmendrix May 2

Pfft…I didn’t offer a quid pro quo. I am thinking of creating a spot the radical rightie drinking game, though…
10 sips – offers Margaret Sanger as an argument against right to choose

admin May 2

Eugenics. Not just Sanger. When the government controls health care you’re gonna care about that too.

sallahdog May 4?

Debates are different from attacks.

yeah ferf… our side always debates its the OTHER guy who attacks… heh…its all a matter of perspective…
the thing that fascinates me, absolutelyfrickingfascinates me, is the amount of concern the so called conservatives (including you, my little blossom flower) have right now over deficit spending..
Where was their outrage and concern when Lil Shrub was spending a trillion dollars on a war?

Seriously, I am pretty fiscally conservative, and am concerned about the amount of money spent right now, but it seems that a bunch of conservatives just got religion on the spending, and its because we aren’t spending money where THEY want to spend it… Its all ok buying bombs, its a horrible waste to fix roads or spend on education…
My biggest problem with the “conservative” movement, and the republican party right now, is that it has become an exclusionary party.. If you aren’t anti abortion, antigay, progun,prospending only on war, antiimmigration, you just aren’t welcome in the party… No matter if your a fiscal conservative…

Its the same kind of litmus test that decimated the democrats during the Reagan era. When if you weren’t a complete lefty you were drummed out of the party…
balance folks. thats all I wish for…

way to work in the romancelandia stuff in… You really had to work hard for that, I don’t really buy it, but kudos for the effort… heh…

FerfeLaBat May 5

…If you want to call death threats a “debate” then that’s fine for you. Taunting an author to commit suicide, wishing another elderly author would stoke out as a result of a “co-ordinated blog action” (Jane Litte’s words for taking someone they don’t like down by using the three different blogs to go after an author or editor), I don’t describe that as debate. You KNOW better. Don’t make excuses for them.

You’ve never seen anyone threaten to kill anyone or to harrass them to death on this blog. You have definitely seen snark and mockage here but I don’t pretend it’s anything but snark and mockage. You’ll see debates and even some criticism. But attacks? Like that? No. The one and only time I copied their style and words and posted it, their heads exploded all over the blogosphere. It was the grossest experience of my life, writing like them, which is why I’m telling Pajamas DON’T DO IT.

sallahdog May 5

….As for the girls,you act as though everyone on a blog site is walking lock step , or even agreeing with everything posted on said site…

You and I don’t agree on a LOT of stuff, and to the point that you squided me.
The difference is that I don’t expect people to agree with me, I am only responsible for MY words. My biggest problem with the web and some of the websites is the lack of a sense of humour about life, or the issues… I find you entertaining, I find Ann Somerville a blast to read, and I enjoy Karen and Dear Author too… I find that I don’t really agree with any of you most of the time… heck, if I wanted that I would get off the computer and look in the mirror endlessly (which depresses the hell out of me.)

Ferfe May 5

I don’t expect people to agree with me, but if they don’t agree with me I expect them NOT to attack me and threaten to kill me. I’m sure Charles Manson was a great guy to hang out with, too – except for when he was encouraging his followers to kill people. You are completely defenseless when it comes to recognizing when seemingly normal people are genuinely evil. Everyone – and I mean everyone – has a good side. Most are harmless and just a little crazy in interesting ways. But people who do not stop death threats on their websites and who encourage mob attacks are not people you should toy with.

I can’t stop you, of course. I assume you know what you are dealing with when you go there. But trust me when I say this, because in real life I have encountered some honest-to-god sociopaths who have no concern for human life, they look normal most of the time, but when the other side comes out – recognize it for what it is and know what you are dealing with. They function. They pay their bills. Some even have kids.

But mean? Abnormally cruel with no concept of what qualifies as “Too far” and crosses the civilized line? Don’t ignore those ugly reveals when they show them to you. Don’t excuse them.

admin May 5

Oh you know when the IP tracker pings a hit from Ames, Iowa that badness can’t be far behind.
*Second guessing*

Can I compare Jane Litte and Karen Scott to Charles Manson figuratively? *Pondering* *Flash backs to past carnage* *Doing body count of victims* Yeah. I’m good with that.

admin May 5

Oh and Link to Ann Somerville please?

sallahdog May 5

http://logophilos.net/blather/ is ann somerville…she hates me…she called me a troll once (and I honestly wasn’t being one…that day…lol)… that time in question was at Dear Author over the street teams issue, where I said that while the author probably used a poor choice of words or humor for a blog post, I didn’t think she deserved being drawn and quartered over asking her teams to go out ” with the stealth of a tiger” to turn her books facing out, or sneak them into the endcap areas in the local book store… she went for humour and it fell flat with those who are “oh so serious” (which is one thing I do think Dear Author as a site is often guilty of(not necessarily jane et al, but some of the posters), yet another reason I get giggles out of it sometimes)…
She doesn’t have much of a sense of humour, which is probably why I find her funny (yes, I am a sick bastid)…

I am not going to argue about the horsemen thing.. As I said before, I didn’t see offense where you did… and ferf, I have had mail sent to my house by someone who decided to track my ass down and find out all they could about me, over a show dog message board, if you can believe that… so yeah, I know about the nuts…

admin May 5
…I’m pretty easy to find if someone wanted me but god help them if they’re intentions are bad.
Jane Litte has no discernable sense of humor and neither do her followers. I wish I could find humor in that, but I can’t.

sallahdog May 6

I dont know if I was squided by you at the time or not. probably not… I just didn’t agree and kept saying so. ..lol… Ann was quite the dustup and PITA on the Dear Author boards (which of course I loved) are you blocked from posting at Dear Author? because if you are, I think you and Ann are the only ones…

admin May 6
Most likely.
I think I read about that one elsewhere. She thought she was “in” with those idiots and that – because she joined in on their hate fests – was safe from being the next author on the chopping block.
That never works out well.

One of the reasons I was so angry with JD Rhodes (K: Why can she not at least attempt to spell people’s names correctly? She’s on this guy’s blog everyday for Oprah’s sake.) was because he had the same type of thinking. Certain people are “safe” and certain people can be fed to the wolves. Where the hell did basic right and wrong drift off to? It’s like people never get out of highschool.

these are the same people who say they are against torture, btw – except when they are for it. ….It’s fair game when an author expresses an opinion they don’t agree with or says something that offends their oh so delicate sensibilities. Envy is an ugly ugly thing.

sallahdog May 6

I think its too simplistic to say this is envy. .. there is a bit of the herd mentality in effect. when someone whom you admire or respect the opinion of (in DAs case Jane) says something that people agree with, they get on the site and instead of saying “ditto” , they want to make their own stamp on a conversation and say something interesting… which is how things seem to get “amped up”… simply the weight of dozens of posts (instead of a normal conversation that would have 5 or 6 POV)..
Thats just the nature of a larger message board or blog..

I differ in that I don’t shoot the messenger, I just tune out (or enjoy) the creaking hordes trying to stand out.. which is why as much as I like DA, or SB to read, I am more likely to post here, or at Karens(things don’t become a 200 post wankfest)

I used to post all the time on Rungay and Blogging Project Runway (i love this show) until the number of posters got into the hundreds… now I just read…
I do think, if I was an author, I would avoid like the plague, message boards and blogs pertaining to books.. My line of work wouldn’t make a good blog now, but I don’t think could stand listening to online critiques of my work all day long either… but then I don’t think reader blogs (like DA) are really for authors..They are definately consumer driven..


  • just, sigh...
    May 15
    4:17 pm


    Hell, even I agree with probably 75% of what Ann actually says, I just find it next to impossible to get past the way she says it. All her opinions seem to either be applied with a bludgeon and a stream of vitriol, or a supercilious, “you have lived up to my standards, cookies for you” condescension that gets people’s backs up. And the disconnect between how she applies her own standards to others and to herself boggles the mind.

    She decries ad hominem attacks (when used against her), often only one comment removed from her own labeling of someone a racist, homophobe, talentless cunt, small-minded bitch, or any number of other more creative and entertaining insults.

    She decries insensitivity and takes people to task over their careless use of language with an arrogance that brings to mind a god issuing commandments from the mount–and then spews hate on all who cross her path and have occasion to not feel as she does, or not feel so as strongly as she does, or not feel so for the same reasons as she does.

    She champions her own right to be an outspoken bitch, but when she comes across others who exercise that right against her, she often transforms magically into a wounded martyr who can’t understand why people are mad at her.

    She’ll tar every writer and all their works at a certain publisher with one vomit-colored brush, warning people to stay away from the “creepy” and “talentless” authors there, and then berate others for trying to ruin her career for the sin of drawing attention to her own behavior online.

    She condemns hypocrisy in all its forms, except her own.

    I can understand why people who don’t like her might read her blog. Some are watching for their own names, because no one likes to be badmouthed, especially by someone who, for reasons which escape me, still has a certain amount of credibility in some circles online. Others do so for the same kind of entertainment you get from watching a yippy dog go apeshit at passersby from within the safetly of its fenced yard.

    I don’t think she has minions. I’m not even sure she has friends–because I feel true friends would try to steer her away from her self-destructive behaviors. Although, admittedly, a few who have tried are now on her shit list and have found themselves eviscerated on her blog, so I can understand why others wouldn’t.

    Still, it makes me sad when she posts something that sets a torch to yet another bridge, and the comments are filled with variations on “amen, sistah!” When she’s managed, with her friends’ approval, to alienate everyone on the internet, I hope they’ll be prepared to buy up multiple copies of her books to offset the loss…


  • Mireya
    May 15
    5:25 pm

    @just sigh: >>Hell, even I agree with probably 75% of what Ann actually says, I just find it next to impossible to get past the way she says it.<<



  • sallahdog
    May 15
    8:44 pm

    which is why I enjoy her… You have to admit, its never boring..

    She champions her own right to be an outspoken bitch, but when she comes across others who exercise that right against her, she often transforms magically into a wounded martyr who can’t understand why people are mad at her.


  • Ghetto Diva
    May 20
    12:05 pm

    Why does freddy cruiger always come out of hiding and attacks Karen and the blog atmosphere, claiming how horrid they are?

    She should just take her ass into hiding forever. Nobody is truly going to care, if she ever shows her ass again.

    Plain and simple.


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