For the love of all that’s good and holy: when writing a character of an ethnicity not your own, please please please get someone who is one hundred percent fluent in that language to check and double check your foreign language expressions!
Yes, if you are writing for the US market it’s likely that a good chunk of your readership will skip over those and be happy, but for those who actually speak that other language it is grating and annoying and-I’m sure unintentionally but all the same-offensive.
It is not that hard to find someone who actually speaks other languages like a native (or who is indeed a native). It is not.
What brings this on, you ask? Well, one too many pseudo-Latino character using pseudo-Spanish expressions that no Spanish speaking person would use.
“¿De cierto?” does NOT mean “are you sure?” (If I am very very charitable, I can pretend that it almost means “in truth” but even in that case it is not grammatically correct. In any case, most Spanish speakers would say, “¿De verdad?” instead.)
If you want your character to say “are you sure?” s/he should say, “¿estás seguro(a)?” (“seguro” when asking a male; “segura” when asking a female).
The person so asked would never NEVER, under any circumstances answer, “Muy cierto.” Because “muy cierto” means-depending on context-either “very true” or “that is true” (as in, “I agree with what you just said”)
The correct answer to “¿estás seguro(a)?” (are you sure?) is “sí, estoy muy seguro(a)”
Spanish, like French, also has that little thing with the formal and informal speech. Siblings would never ever ever use formal speech with each other. A young woman would not say to her sister, “Es su vida.” She would say, “Es tu vida”
But wait, you may ask, why is it offensive?
Because it often feels as if the trouble of finding someone to make sure these things didn’t make it through was not worth the author’s time, and no one likes thinking they are not worth the time to get it right.
Nota bene: I do not know why an author didn’t get it right; I do not know what the time constraints were; I do not know any of that, so I am not saying that these are the author’s motivations. What I am saying is: this is how it feels to me.
Lolita Lopez
June 17
9:29 am
Yes! And what about colloquialisms and slang? I can’t stand it when, say, a Mexican American Latina uses slang you’d here from a Cuban or a Puerto Rican or a Central or South American. Yes, there’s a difference. A huge one. I’ve read things in various books that just completely kill the story for me.
Generally, I stay away from Spanglish in my novellas and short stories. I’ll toss in the occasional “nena” or a curse but that’s about as far as I go. If a reader can’t use context clues to figure it out, I cut it. I don’t want my non-Spanish speaking readers to have to break out the online translation service just to get the gist of my dialogue.
Katharina
June 17
10:09 am
Oh Atzteclady, I so agree with you. It really makes me go mad when I read mistakes in French or German. People who are familiar with each other suddenly starting using the formal vous (you), and badly portrayed Germans (of course they are always fat and have a horrible accent) saying Fraulein, Frulein, Frelein (instead of Fräulein). Actually, you don’t find that often German used in romance (which doesn’t disturb me), but when you stumble upon it, the author seems to have forgotten all the umlauts and special letters. As I don’t understand Spanish I can’t tell right from wrong, but I imagine there are also those specialists who seem to ignore the existence of accents.
Mireya
June 17
10:30 am
This is an ongoing issue and I have been ranting about this for over 5 years now. Cuban and Puerto Rican Spanish are very close, but that is not the case with Spanish spoken in other countries or Spain. Yes, we understand each other quite well, but there are subtleties and coloquialisms that are regional. Spanish is my first language, I’ve only been living in the continental US since 1999. It has gotten to the point in which, when I read a blurb, and find out a main character is Latin or Hispanic, I just don’t buy the book no matter how appealing everything else may sound.
I don’t feel like la voz que clama en el desierto (I am the voice of one crying in the desert… This is a Biblical reference) any longer thanks to this post. For a long time it seemed like I was the only one that brought this up in forums, etc.
Mireya
June 17
10:37 am
P.S. The saying should translate to: “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness,” not desert … didn’t have time to edit it, I apologize for the misquote.
GrowlyCub
June 17
1:11 pm
Hi AL,
I totally agree. To me it smacks of author and editor not wanting to be bothered to get it right, which implies lack of respect for readers.
I can’t help but think that if it’s important enough to the story to include a foreign language then it ought to be important enough to make sure it’s not totally, utterly and embarrassingly wrong.
FD
June 17
1:42 pm
Oh yes. I have the same reaction to anachronisms and pointless historical inaccuracies in historical romance. I don’t mean the kind of things that may be invented for purposes of serving the story, or things where there is no proof one way or another. I mean things like Freudian-type psychology being used to dissect a persons character in a Regency setting, or a medieval character galloping in a side-saddle.
It’s a failure to do your research; it feels disrespectful to the reader and the setting.
In addition, when the writer is using other languages / countries and characters of different races, it feels uncomfortably like racial fetishism when they get the details wrong.
Kimber Chin
June 17
1:57 pm
But it IS hard
because most of language is regional.
An expression used in a village in Belize
may not be used in Belize City.
Heck, I’ve used ENGLISH phrases
and had readers email me
that they were incorrect
(but they weren’t
’cause my mamma uses them all the time – grinning).
I tend to use words only
(because many, many readers do NOT like non-English words in their romances)
and even for those,
I ask dozens of locals,
check and double check on forums,
etc.
Then I fight for them
with my editor
and again with my copy editor
and then pray that there won’t be a typo
in the final.
And Katharina, forget about trying to get special characters in English text, that ain’t happening.
Katharina
June 17
2:01 pm
Kimber Chin, thanks for letting me know, I always forget to use html for special characters LOL.
Kimber Chin
June 17
2:10 pm
Mireya,
I do the same with businessmen or women characters.
SO many writers have never been behind closed doors
in a boardroom and it shows.
It may still be an entertaining story
but the inaccuracy throws me off.
And don’t even get me started on those The CEO’s Virgin Secretary And The Impending Lawsuit romances.
FD
June 17
2:14 pm
*giggles* Yes. I’m a HR manager, so you can imagine how they amuse me. Or, you know, not, depending on how close they are to incidents I’ve actually handled.
AztecLady
June 17
2:17 pm
Kimber Chin, with a lot of reluctance, I give you the slang bit. I cannot give you the formal vs informal speech.
I’ve lived in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Venezuela and Florida. I’ve been friendly with Colombians, Cubans, Peruvians, Argentinians, Ecuadorians, Chileans and Spanish. Not ONE of them would use the formal adress in the situation I quoted.
Anon76
June 17
2:32 pm
I can see how it would drive “those in the know” crazy.
Way back in high-school I learned that usage varies from region to region. My Spanish class was filled with kids of Puerto Rican lineage. Many figured it would be an easy A and pump up their grade point averages, being as they spoke Spanish at home.
Well…that didn’t happen. Our teacher was from Spain, and she taught that version. It ended up being way easier for me to learn from scratch than for the other kids to adjust to her way. I felt so bad because my friends were so darned frustrated. They’d make errors if they let their concentration slip on tests or during classroom conversation.
Las
June 17
2:54 pm
Oh, that annoys the hell out of me. Even more annoying? When they use Italian and Spanish interchangeably. I just say a mental “Fuck you” to the author and editors at that point.
If an author doesn’t know the language or doesn’t have someone who can verify for her, then she needs to either not write foreign characters at all or not have them speak their native language.
(And in a large part of Colombia they actually do use the formal address exclusively, but that’s it as far as I know, so it’s not like that’s a valid excuse for getting it wrong.)
Mireya
June 17
3:16 pm
@Anon76: Grammar and spelling was never a strong point for my classmates back in Puerto Rico. Those of us in my classes that were readers, did well, the rest, not so much. However, if your teacher was telling them that certain words were not “correct” because they were not used in Spain i.e. carro v. coche (automobile. Puertoricans say carro, Spaniards say coche) then that teacher was an ass.
Mariana
June 17
3:27 pm
WORD! It’s a bit annoying (actually more than a bit) and doesn’t really allow me a chance to fully enjoy a book. I constantly find myself correcting the phrases as I read, losing momentum.
Anon76
June 17
4:15 pm
Mireya said:
“However, if your teacher was telling them that certain words were not “correct” because they were not used in Spain i.e. carro v. coche (automobile. Puertoricans say carro, Spaniards say coche) then that teacher was an ass.”
Yeppers, she was just that type of ass. It was her way, and no other. Quite a few kids dropped out of class because of that. You’d think the school administration would have taken note, but I kinda figured they turned a blind eye because racism could have been an issue. I mean, we caucasion kids weren’t dropping the class, so it must be the fault of the “ethnics” right?
Then again, you’ve got history teachers that teach their version of history, so I think this type of problem in schools is more common than we think.
And to take that one step further, math classes can be a problem. You can have a kid that is brill in math, but he calculates the answers in his own method. Said kid runs into a teacher that insists on seeing not only the answer, but the calculation to that answer on the test paper. Kid gets a C for achieving correct answers but not following the cirriculum for how to arrive at those answers. (Scratches head at the insanity of us adults.)
Candy
June 17
4:38 pm
Another annoying thing. Not every black man or woman speaks ebonics.
I understand about the foreign language issues. So I try to stay away from them. One of the problems is that there are thousands of dictionaries and translations on the internet. I think authors are afraid to ask for help from a real person because they may be afraid of looking dumb or offending. So they just use the internet for research.
As a reader I tend to skip over foreign words or phrases in books. I think it’s annoying and smacks of an author trying to make the character more authentic. Of course, that may not be the case.
With twitter, facebook and other social media outlets it would be easy to put out a plea for help in the name of research and accuracy.
Rosario
June 17
5:18 pm
Well, I think some Costa Ricans do use it (going from someone I met a few years ago), and as Las says, some Colombians, but I do completely agree with your general point. In most cases it’s clear that the author just doesn’t know the difference, and didn’t very carefully create a character who happens to come from Bogotá and that’s why she speaks that way.
And I’ll echo everyone else in that it’s not so hard to get someone to check it for you!!! Most of us foreign language-speakers in the romance community are so fed up with rubbish versions of our languages in novels, that we’re really happy to be asked.
Mireya
June 17
6:07 pm
@Candy: you are absolutely right about using twitter or social networks. A few years ago I proofed one of Julie Leto’s books for Spanish content. We were acquaintances from a couple of forums. I made a comment about this exact same subject in one of them and she emailed me to ask if I would do her the favor. I was more than happy to help (I got a freebie in the process). And she had already had at least two other people proofing it for her as well. I can only say that my respect towards her as an author went up several notches, and it was high to begin with.
MB (Leah)
June 17
6:17 pm
I really hate when authors give a Chinese or Korean name to a Japanese character. It drives me insane. And I’ve seen it happen more often than it should.
No, sorry, but not all Asians are Chow or Kim, or Lee.
And this one is so easy to do. Just type in Google search “Japanese names.”
alisha rai
June 17
6:42 pm
I’m in edits on a novel with a Hispanic-American hero. I’ve been concerned that he’s going to feel left out of the Latino Romance Characters Club because he speaks no Spanish in the story. It wasn’t a conscious choice on my part to avoid it, I just didn’t see a need for it.
Frankly, I don’t think it’s always accurate when characters suddenly burst into their mother tongue. I’m U.S. born and raised and I can safely say that I don’t jabber on in Hindi to white folks.
AztecLady
June 17
6:45 pm
Alisha, YES and a thousand times, YES!
There are indeed people from a different ethnic and cultural background than the “majority” who do not drop back to the ‘mother’ tongue every other phrase.
Hell, I became fluent in English at almost 30yrs old, and I don’t. My eldest learned English at 9, and he doesn’t. And we are not exceptions, really.
Specifically: when we speak in Spanish, then we speak Spanish; when we speak in English, then we speak English. We do not pepper our English speech with Spanish words or viceversa.
Maria Zannini
June 17
6:46 pm
Amen. And may I also add along with regional dialects, generational language. A 75 year old will often times continue to use the language he grew up with rather than the accepted speech of the day.
EAP
June 17
7:14 pm
Excuse me, but I just need to add my 2p to this rant:
It’s LA PETITE MORT (no “E”).
(le mort = cadaver/dead thing)
I really hate the pictures in my head when this goes wrong. Please stop it.
I feel better now. Thank you.
(btw phrase can also refer to epileptic seizures – depends on context).
(NB. This applies mainly to modern French – archaic forms give some wiggle room over grammar, but if this is used as an excuse, I want consistency.)
Randi
June 17
7:28 pm
EAP: isn’t is also used to refer to an orgasm?
My little 2 cents and this is NOT a peeve by any means-just an observation: I can immediately identify an Australian or English writer because they use the following: CV (for resume), mates, shag. The first time I came across CV, I scratched my head for about 2 hours trying to figure out what it meant. Doctor Who came on, I think Martha was talking about her CV, and I finally figured it out. LOL.
So, I guess, in reverse, if you’re not a US author, and you are writing a US protaganist, you might want to check to make sure the slang is correct. 😉 It doesn’t make me mad, it actually makes me giggle, but I do think, “Um…we don’t say that here.”
EAP
June 17
7:52 pm
Hi Randi – you’re right, thanks for pointing that out. I should have been more clear. 🙂 My comment ought to have started, “If referring to the orgasm (in French)…”
alisha rai
June 17
7:59 pm
I wonder why this misconception applies to minorities. I’m living for the day I see a heroine with Irish parents dropping Gaelic slang Ricky Ricardo-style :).
Kay Webb Harrison
June 17
9:15 pm
I am a native speaker of U.S. English. Spanish is my second language, learned in public schools and undergrad university before I traveled in Spain. I taught high school Spanish for over twenty years. When I read a book with gross errors in Spanish usage, I usually just write in the correct forms. It’s just something automatic that I do. However, I didn’t know what to do when I came across the expression “no problema” in Criminally Handsome by Cassie Miles (Harlequin Intrigue, 4/09). The Hero, a Latino from New Mexico, used this phrase over and over. I could accept this error from an English-speaker using Spanglish, but not from someone who is bi-lingual; he should have said, “no problem” for English or “ningún problema” for Spanish.
Kay
Lolita Lopez
June 17
9:27 pm
Kay, I’ll disagree with you on the no problema. I live in Texas and I hear that all the time. I have family members who switch from English to Spanish and back again at least twenty times in any conversation. They mix and muddle both languages until it’s something of it’s own Tex-Mex dialect. It’s just a quirk around here.
Alisha, I’d just die laughing if I read a novel with Irish parents dropping Gaelic slang. I do wonder sometimes *why* people expect certain minority groups to break out the “mother tongue.”
I’m sort of odd in that I don’t typically speak Spanish at all unless I’m really pissed. I grew up speaking both languages and, for whatever reason, when I’m pissed it just slips passed my lips. Of course, I do the same thing with Russian, Arabic, and German. If I get really riled up, I guess my brain just short circuits and all those random languages I’m fluent in start pouring out. It’s irksome for the husband, lol.
Mireya
June 17
10:01 pm
@Kay: where I come from, we would say “no hay problema” for “no problem”. Not sure if other Spanish speaking countries would use it as well (I know Cubans do, though). I’ve heard English speakers use the “no problemo” bit, which does make me want to giggle every time I hear it.
I don’t switch from English to Spanish randomly unless I am very very tired. When I am tired, and my husband talks to me, I’ve slipped into Spanish without even realizing it. I’ve only been speaking English on a daily basis over the past 10 years and I am in my mid-40s, so old age is also affecting my brains.
That’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it 😛
Ann Bruce
June 18
2:09 am
Ditto for me with French. Frankly, it comes across as lazy. The most offensive thing I’ve come across is an author who decided she couldn’t be bothered with the accents (i.e. acute, grave, circumflex, etc.) in French and dropped them all. It actually HURT to read the book. I never bought another book by her.
And it absolutely grates on my nerves when authors mix up ethnic names. Anne Stuart gave a Japanese character a Vietnamese name in one of the Ice books–and I haven’t fully forgiven her for it.
Kay Webb Harrison
June 18
2:30 am
Mireya,
I have no problem with “no hay problema” either. I just didn’t include it, because I wanted to stay with “literal” meanings.
Lolita,
Thanks for the info about “no problema.” I had wondered if that idiom (as in “local usage”) might be common somewhere.
******************************************
When I was teaching, I finally realized that the best way to describe to my students why a certain phrase is most appropriate, in either language, is to explain what is “most natural” for a Spanish-speaker/English-speaker to say/write. We second language teachers also spend a lot of time teaching about the first language too. I found “natural” to be more effective than “right” or “wrong.”
Kay
Tuscan Capo
June 18
6:26 am
Eh, we shouldn’t be too hard on English speaking authors. You should read some of the crap that comes off the pages when Italian authors try to write American-eeze. Without naming names there was one that cracked me up when this person was trying to describe a meal. He wrote that one character had ordered a Francaise fried, as a side-order to his omelet of Hamburger and at becoming thirsty, showered it down with a soda. Another author was describing a conversation between a Nascar driver and one of his team members, and seeing a pretty girl walking by suddenly developed a whooper bony. In yet another story a housewife somehow developed a terrible case of being horned after watching her gardener lashing his simian. Since her husband was supposed to be a butcher that horned imagery just blew the whole erotic mood. Sigh.
Angelia Sparrow
June 18
10:32 am
Timely.
I just found I’d substituted yakuta for yukata through an entire novel. *headdesk* (My daughter caught everything else for me.)
I have characters who speak Gaelic now and again. Usually something like “aruhn” or “acushla.” But no major code swithing. You want that, go read Julian May’s Milieu trilogy.
OTOH, I don’t speak enough of anything other than English to catch mis-use or grammatical errors. So I avoid most foreign languages except when the script calls for them.
Mireya
June 18
12:39 pm
@Tuscan Capo: and that was published work?!?!?
Tuscan Capo
June 18
4:22 pm
Mireya,
a small local press from my great-aunt’s home town. The funniest parts are the English-ized blurbs on these books. One of them is hailed as a Great dramatical eros literacy ,lol. But I have to give these folks credit, my aunt says tourism is way down and they’re just trying to make a living.
Mireya
June 18
5:11 pm
@Tuscan: Well, if they manage to make some money, good for them. Some of those phrases do sound very funny and even cute though, if that makes sense.
Jill Sorenson - Blog
June 30
11:03 pm
[…] isn’t a real review. It’s more like a shout-out. Azteclady from Karen Knows Best was complaining about the lack of authentic (or even correct) Spanish in romance novels. I […]
Karen Knows Best » Write what you know–not necessarily what you are.
December 7
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[…] repeat, lo, over two years later: it’s not that hard (to get some common Spanish expressions […]