Would You Take Advice From Bernie Madoff On How To Invest Your Money?
Monday, February 8, 2010Posted in: Adventures with Blog people, Quartet Press
If not, then isn’t it just as ridiculous for people who have already tried to launch a digital publishing company and failed, to talk about how to Build A Digital Publishing House? In this case I’m pointing the finger at Kassia Krozser, seeing as Angela James at least already has a proven track record.
Rumour has it that a couple of the other Quartet Press peeps are involved in similar panels. That just seems wrong-headed somehow.
Thanks to you-know-who for the heads up.
SarahT
February 8
10:15 am
Posts like this are why I love your blog! Yep, I’m in full agreement. When I saw that, my jaw dropped.
ardeatine
February 8
10:43 am
Hmm…That promo blurb needs editing.
Angela James
February 8
12:42 pm
Since I have a proven track record, does it mean anything if I say that I’m doing that panel with her because I know she knows what she’s talking about? In fact, in some of the areas of our panel, she’ll have more knowledge than I will.
I have never said this publicly, but I will now, though I remain unable to discuss the details, just as we all do: Quartet’s closing had 100% nothing to do with Kassia, Kirk or Kat, and their talent remains, despite the fact that Quartet never got the opportunity to open. None of them deserve to get raked over the coals continuously for something they had no control over, and are unable to discuss, and their expertise and knowledge would serve any publisher well.
Bernita
February 8
3:23 pm
And the above comment by her is one of the reasons why I have always admired Angela James.
katiebabs
February 8
3:41 pm
Quartet’s closing had 100% nothing to do with Kassia, Kirk or Kat? But weren’t they the founders of this possible new publisher? I am very confused.
Also why can’t they discuss?
Janet W
February 8
4:03 pm
Hi Katie — you know about that “cannot discuss” thing: I asked a question recently about a link to a Publishers something or other article by agent Steve Axelrod and was informed that divulging more than (paraphrasing), he did not support the agency model — I gather he had six reasons — would be stealing content from the source. But my understanding of repeating information like that was that paraphrasing or putting into your own words, something that you read in a subscription only situation, was kosher. OK. Done all the time. So I’ve been ruminating about that for a few days and your comment made me think about it again. It does strike me as strange that founders are in no way responsible for the eventual outcome — and the veil of secrecy over why it failed, how does that help inform newbies to the game who probably very much want to know what are the pitfalls of getting into the e-publishing game?
Just passing strange as they say.
Kerry
February 8
4:13 pm
From what I read between the lines back when that happened, the failure may have been due to the funding being yanked when the main investor(s) pulled out. No one actually said that outright, but that’s the impression that I got. I would assume no one involved can talk about it for legal reasons, like maybe a non-disclosure agreement was signed or something.
I guess in the case of a funding issue I wouldn’t necessarily “blame” the principal parties for the failure. They could have done everything right and had a successful business model, but having funding yanked from it would pretty much kill the business.
(I’m just speculating about all of this; but I guess I think the benefit of the doubt might be warranted.)
AztecLady
February 8
4:23 pm
The “can’t talk about it” is the easiest part for me to understand. Most jobs have “non disclosure” clauses for this, that or the other, and breaking those can get the person in question very quickly in hot, deep water.
Personally, and because of this, when Angela James says, “we can’t talk about it” I take it as fact.
I don’t know the three K people mentioned from the man on the moon, so I won’t put forth an opinion on their qualifications (or lack thereof) to speak about anything–I will say that if, as Ms James says, they did nothing that lead to the premature demise of Quartet Press, then it sucks really bad that their reputations will always be tarnished by it.
kirsten saell
February 8
5:52 pm
I’d guess that the backers got cold feet when they realized epublishing isn’t a get rich quick thing but, like most business ventures, a slow and steady wins the race kind of thing.
Kind of a “What the hell? I thought you guys said lower overhead and higher profit margin than print! And now you’re saying we won’t break even for two years? We thought we’d be raking it in the first week! Fuck this.”
RRRJessica
February 8
8:00 pm
I totally always knew it was Mr. X’s fault!!
veinglory
February 9
12:47 am
In the library with the candlestick?
SarahT
February 9
10:40 am
My objection to the info provided on Kassia and Angela’s panel is not the subject matter or their respective expertise, but that it makes no mention of the fact that Quartet Press never actually opened and is phrased as if QP is an existing entity. Seriously, folks, click on the link Karen provided. Where does it mention that Quartet Press never opened?
Angela James
February 9
12:51 pm
Sarah, you’ll have to take that up with Tools of Change. The people there are well aware Quartet never opened and they chose that panel after Quartet closed. The proposal was sent in before, however, and the details never got changed on their site. You’ll notice Carina Press isn’t mentioned at all? Certainly not ideal. Nothing nefarious about it, just an oversight in not changing the details. I would also guess that 99% of the people who would be interested in that panel and attending Tools of Change are well aware that Quartet closed, because they’re familiar with Kassia and I from other digital conferences and online interactions. Again, nothing nefarious there.
SarahT
February 9
1:09 pm
Ah, OK. Thanks, Angela, for the clarification.
SarahT
February 9
1:30 pm
After some reflection, it strikes me as odd that Kassia didn’t send updated information in the interim. It’s been what, five months or so, since QP didn’t open? I’ve attended many conferences in my time and we were always told to send amended info in as soon as possible. Even if it didn’t make it in time for the printed material, it was always updated online. Just a thought.
Angela James
February 9
1:45 pm
Sarah, I guess I am not getting why this is such an issue for you. People forget to do things all the time and if you don’t, then I need you to teach me how to stay on top of even the small details because most days, I’m always feeling one step behind of my to-do list. I had no idea, until you pointed it out to me, that our panel description said what it did. In the grand scheme of things, is not remembering to update panel information the worst thing ever? And is it not possible, that she did send in updated information but it didn’t get changed? Or even further, is it not possible that had either of us thought of it or become aware of it, we’d have made sure it was changed because being associated with Quartet as the most current thing we’ve done is the very last thing we’d want? I’m not sure what Kassia has done to garner such antipathy from you, but I’m truly shocked that this is a continuing issue for you.
SarahT
February 9
1:51 pm
Erm…antipathy? Where did you get that idea from? How is what I said any different to the tone of Karen’s post, for example?
I don’t know Kassia to have any feelings about her one way or the other. I find the panel info odd and I expressed surprise that it wasn’t changed. That is all.
Trust me, it’s not “a continuing issue” for me.
RRRJessica
February 9
8:45 pm
Actually, come to think of it, I would rather take Madoff’s advice on investments, because at least he had a successful track record prior to succumbing to the lure of greed and graft. Krozser has tried once to build a digital publishing house and failed once. That is a fact, isn’t it (correct me if not)? And those are worse odds, aren’t they?
I am sure Krozser has many skill sets and knows loads of things about digital publishing from which attendees will benefit. But I happen to agree with Karen and Sarah that it might have been a little closer to truth-in-advertising if the title of her talk was something like, “How Not to Build a Digital Publishing House”.
Karen Scott
February 9
8:53 pm
@Angie Not really, because for me this is a question of credibility. No matter how this is spun, she was still one of the quartet who failed whilst trying to get a digital publishing project off the ground. It might not have been her fault per se, but I think she’s still somehow embroiled in that failure, and thus, doing a panel on how to build a digital publishing company smacks of hypocrisy, for want of a better word. I’m afraid that until Kassia gets involved in a project that actually works, her opinions on how to build a digital publishing company remain just that, opinions – with little or no evidence to back them up.
Also, I haven’t forgotten that when quizzed on the financials, she went round and round the houses without ever answering the questions put to her. Even when pressed, as she was on numerous occasions.
@AL I don’t take that as fact at all, and as much as I like and admire Angela, it’s possible that even she isn’t in possession of all the “facts”. I’m far too cynical to take such declarations at face value.
If the reason the venture failed was because the funding was yanked, then I’m afraid that makes the owners even more culpable, because for whatever reason, they had no back-up plan, and hadn’t thought to look at something as significant as asking themselves what they would do if the backers, backed out.
Like I said earlier, for me this is a question of credibility, pure and simple, and I’m not one to shy away from saying how I feel on any given subject. One of the reasons that I was cautiously optimistic that Quartet Press would do ok, was the credibility that I felt that Kassia brought to the table, but the fact that the venture failed without ever getting off the ground, kinda kills that credibility. When one offers himself up as an ‘expert’, it usually helps to be able to have proof of one’s expertise, and I’m afraid that a CV consisting of one failed project, and lots of opinions, does not an expert make.
Angela, I understand that you want to defend Kassia because she’s your friend, but the fact is, I think it’s right to question Kassia’s presence on the panel, and I suspect that were you more removed from the situation, you would probably be asking yourself the same questions. This isn’t an anti-Kassia post, so please don’t try to imply that it is. It’s easier for us to be critical of Kassia and The Quartet Press people, because we don’t feel the same affiliation to her that you obviously do.
Do I think Kassia knows what she’s talking about? The true answer to that is, I don’t know, but I think her presence on the panel is worth questioning, no matter how uncomfortable it makes her, and seeing as her and the other QP owners already got an easy ride from RomLand, in comparison to some of the other failed ebook publishers, it would be remiss of me to blithely ignore the fact that she’s on a panel as a Quartet Press rep telling folks how to build a digital publishing company.
And let me just add that being well informed about a particular subject matter, does not always translate on a more practical level, i.e, I may know what ingredients to use for a souffle, but it doesn’t mean that I know how to make it well.
Karen Scott
February 9
9:22 pm
So the fourth person was to blame then??
@Angie In my experience, there are three principle reasons why a company fails – lack of funds, lack of planning, and lack of commitment and effort.
For me, I don’t see how a company can fail, without the owners being held responsible. If there was a private backer who pulled out at the last minute, it means that the owners put all their eggs in one basket, something that lots of successful business owners know not to do.
Kirk Biglione
February 9
10:42 pm
Wow. Seriously?! Bernie Madoff stole money. Lots of money. Billions. Are you seriously comparing what Madoff did to the failure of a digital publishing startup? If so, you really have no sense of decency.
As someone who was involved in the Quartet “debacle” I can say without hesitation that:
1. No laws were broken.
2. None of the participants behaved unethically.
3. No money is owed (all debts were honored).
Frankly, your attempt to connect the Quartet Press participants to a Ponsi scheme seems actionable. I hope you have a good attorney.
Kassia Krozser
February 9
11:00 pm
I sincerely appreciate Angie’s stepping in and defending me, and her continued faith in my skills and knowledge. The feeling is mutual. And I am always happy to answer — to the best of my ability — any questions I can (I dispute that I went around and around on financials, but I will acknowledge there were things I could not discuss).
This TOC workshop will be the second I’ve given on this topic since the demise of Quartet. The failure of Quartet to get off the ground is very public knowledge in the digital publishing realm, meaning it’s well known around the world. I have not hidden anything, and I have been upfront about risks and benefits with people who are interested in this business. Believe me when I say I have had many discussions with many people on this topic.
I am sorry the updated information did not make it into the description, but, honestly, I’m not terribly worried about it. I can’t pretend Quartet didn’t happen. Businesses fail for many reasons, and those reasons are not necessarily due to lack of skills on the part of the people involved in the business. This does not mean I don’t have experience (I have been successfully publishing in the digital realm for well over a decade, though not book-length fiction), knowledge, or even advice about avoiding pitfalls. I have also managed to successfully run my own business for well over a decade.
I do not appreciate being compared to a Ponzi schemer, particularly a convicted criminal who destroyed the lives of many people. I suspect you would feel the same.
Karen Scott
February 9
11:10 pm
Oh Kirky, Kirky, Kirky, you just about made my day with that comment.
Here’s Angela trying to persuade me that the owners of Quartet Press weren’t absolute twats, and here you are, just messing up all her good work.
I’ll tell you what Kirky, go and get yourself an attorney. Make it a good one too. I URGE YOU TO.
Karen Scott
February 9
11:26 pm
Would it make you feel better if I compared you guys to Tiger Woods instead?
How does this title suit you? “Would You Take Relationship Advice From Tiger Woods?
Is that better for you?
Hey Kirky, Tiger didn’t do anything illegal did he? He just screwed a whole lotta people is all. Although I’m guessing the people he was screwing knew about it at the time.
Oh crap, was that comment actionable? Shit, I’m sorry, please don’t sue me Kirky, I’m begging you, pleeezzzee!
Magdalen
February 9
11:37 pm
I am convinced that there was no intent to mislead potential attendees by suggesting (by omission) that Quartet Press hadn’t failed before it began. I’m also more than willing to believe that Kassia is not to blame for the description put out by the conference organizers. They’re packaging and selling a product, which can explain what is known as “mere puffery” in the law (basically, making a product sound like the best thing ever when it is just a thing.)
But hyperbole is hyperbole. Why threaten to drag lawyers into it? Where is there anything actionable in this comment thread? Madoff is a convicted felon, true, but he does actually know a lot about investments — he just decided that a Ponzi scheme uh, had a better rate of return as it were. That he destroyed people’s lives is also undeniable — but I haven’t read anything that suggests anyone associated with QP is guilty of anything.
So — if Karen’s post was deliberately dramatic (and did anyone see her preceding post about racism? — I think we are all on notice that she’s got an outrageous sense of what’s appropriate on her own blog), I think the comment thread is more about the claims of authority in a new industry like digital publishing.
And I simply don’t see any potential cause of action here on either side. So save the huge retainer you’d need for legal counsel — it can be better used buying ebooks for your new iPad…
Hee
February 10
12:16 am
Oh Karen,
You slay me ;D.
No laws were broken but QP sure affected some careers. Would Angela J have been so eager to defend if she were still jobless? And how many authors at Samhain are still wishing AJ was still their editor?
While KK and co looked at QP as a summer fling/experiment (re: her blog entry after QP’s failure), she discounted the fact that she experimented on people’s lives and livelihood. She may have great ideas but from her venture, she doesn’t seem to have the know-how to be giving a lecture about How To Build A Digital Publishing House. Because…eh…look at QP’s demise (is it a demise when it was never alive?)
Anon Y. Mouse
February 10
1:03 am
Then their business plan was not successful. I have no real dog in this fight, but I just don’t see how someone who’s never done it successfully is in any position to tell anyone how to start an epublishing business. Perhaps KK has plenty of other skills she could do panels on, but opening an epublisher clearly isn’t one of them.
Granted, AJ hasn’t opened one either, but I give her a pass because she was there with Samhain from the beginning, so its success has much to do with her, I think. KK has zero experience opening or running a publisher. So why is she telling others how to do what she can’t? In my opinion the panel ought to have been pulled when Quartet folded, as at least one of the panelists is quite clearly not an expert on the topic at hand.
Kerry
February 10
3:18 pm
& the point from Anon Y. Mouse: Very good points.
I don’t see anything “actionable” here, but I’m just a reader, not a lawyer.
Anon
February 10
6:46 pm
I am, and the threat makes me giggle.
I’ve been wondering that, too. I know this is gonna bring the pitchforks and torches, but seriously what is Angela James’ proven track record? She’s never opened a press. Chrissy is the one who got Samhain off the ground.
Saturday Links of Interest
February 13
11:50 am
[…] the off-chance that anyone missed it, Karen Scott was threatened with legal action by Kirk Biglione, one of the four founders of the short-lived digital publisher, Quartet Press (see comment […]
EC Sheedy
February 13
5:48 pm
It’s been my experience that in business there’s money people and non money-people (usually with the skill sets required to run the biz). The two types need each other to make the biz work. But if the money people pull out of the deal at the last minute–there’s often poop-all the non-money people can do about it: because they’ve already exhausted their resources, because the plan has been tarnished by the pull out of the money people, and because getting financing in a crap economy requires using more life-energy than they’re prepared to expend.
It sounds so easy, lovely even, to have a plan A for financing followed by a tidy Plan B. So logical. Ha! But it’s just not always the case.
I know nothing about the Quartet Press thing, by the way, just watched it from the blog sideline. But comparing it to Madoff . . . . Like Ouch!